The Color of Crime...Report Statistics Released

[William Joyce]

I think what William Joyce is saying is, yes, it's impossible for white men to succeed in America.

Hey! Did you guys learn this debate techique in liberal school? Lesson one: when a conservative makes an observation about something, expand it to an impossible extreme, and that point out that because that impossible extreme can't be wright, the general observation can't be. Neat!

It works great:

"People should generally have to work for a living."

So! Everyone should have to work, even babies? You Nazi!

 

[Shattered]

Of course you can't.

But I tell you what, maybe if we starting holding parents more accountable to their children's actions things might improve.

Kid skips school - parent sits in detention for the day with them.

Kid stays out after curfew - parent arrested along with the kid for curfew violation.

Just to name a few. It would be rough at first, certain segments of the population would throw a royal fit, but eventually, parents would realize that they will be accountable for their child's behaviour.

Don't stoop to logic.. It's lost on a lot of people...

 

[GotZoom]

Don't stoop to logic.. It's lost on a lot of people...

I know....I know.

And, again...you are right.

 

[Mr. P]

Of course you can't.

But I tell you what, maybe if we starting holding parents more accountable to their children's actions things might improve.

Kid skips school - parent sits in detention for the day with them.

Kid stays out after curfew - parent arrested along with the kid for curfew violation.

Just to name a few. It would be rough at first, certain segments of the population would throw a royal fit, but eventually, parents would realize that they will be accountable for their child's behaviour.

Good idea but in the first week it would be labeled Racist, you can bet on it.

 

[dilloduck]

Of course you can't.

But I tell you what, maybe if we starting holding parents more accountable to their children's actions things might improve.

Kid skips school - parent sits in detention for the day with them.

Kid stays out after curfew - parent arrested along with the kid for curfew violation.

Just to name a few. It would be rough at first, certain segments of the population would throw a royal fit, but eventually, parents would realize that they will be accountable for their child's behaviour.

Rough at first ? Now there's an understatement. Kid messes up--parent losses his/her job. Kid gets arrested--parent goes to jail. Has a HARDER time getting a job because now he has a record.

 

[Shattered]

I know....I know.

And, again...you are right.

I'm right about a lot of things. The things I'm not right about, I'm pretty damn sure about.

T-shirt I want: You can either agree with me, or be wrong.

 

[dilloduck]

I'm right about a lot of things. The things I'm not right about, I'm pretty damn sure about.

T-shirt I want: You can either agree with me, or be wrong.

How many kids do you have, Shattered ?

 

[Shattered]

How many kids do you have, Shattered ?

What, precisely, does a lack of something have to do with the application of common sense? I don't have to be ON welfare to know it needs reforming. I don't have to be an ex-con to know that stealing is wrong. I don't have to BE a parent to know there are an awful lot of lazy/careless ones out there, and that it's the lazy ones whose children are most often out causing, or getting in trouble.

 

[GotZoom]

Rough at first ? Now there's an understatement. Kid messes up--parent losses his/her job. Kid gets arrested--parent goes to jail. Has a HARDER time getting a job because now he has a record.

There would have to be a lot of cooperation between employers, law enforcement, etc.

This problem has taken many years to get to where it is, it can't be fixed overnight.

But it has to start somewhere. Saying it won't work because it can't be fixed at all is simply giving up.

 

[dilloduck]

What, precisely, does a lack of something have to do with the application of common sense? I don't have to be ON welfare to know it needs reforming. I don't have to be an ex-con to know that stealing is wrong. I don't have to BE a parent to know there are an awful lot of lazy/careless ones out there, and that it's the lazy ones whose children are most often out causing, or getting in trouble.

I was just curious as to what kind of experience you were speaking from. There are MANY good parents who have done everything they could to raise a responsible and positive child but the child eventually got in with the wrong crowd and succumbed to peer pressure ( which is WAY more of an influence on some children as they grow older ). Sending this parent to jail or levying a heavy fine will do NOTHING to change this child but sure as hell will harm the parent.

 

[Shattered]

I was just curious as to what kind of experience you were speaking from. There are MANY good parents who have done everything they could to raise a responsible and positive child but the child eventually got in with the wrong crowd and succumbed to peer pressure ( which is WAY more of an influence on some children as they grow older ). Sending this parent to jail or levying a heavy fine will do NOTHING to change this child but sure as hell will harm the parent.

Wrong. If that child is raised right, he will SEE that his actions not only affected himself, but also negatively affected those that care about him the most.

 

[dilloduck]

Wrong. If that child is raised right, he will SEE that his actions not only affected himself, but also negatively affected those that care about him the most.

So is it your belief that every "bad" child is the result of "bad" parenting ?

 

[GotZoom]

I was just curious as to what kind of experience you were speaking from. There are MANY good parents who have done everything they could to raise a responsible and positive child but the child eventually got in with the wrong crowd and succumbed to peer pressure ( which is WAY more of an influence on some children as they grow older ). Sending this parent to jail or levying a heavy fine will do NOTHING to change this child but sure as hell will harm the parent.

There are always those kids who end up with "the wrong crowd" - however, the odds of the kids turning out "right" has to increase if they start out with the "right" base.

You can't be suggesting that every single person in prison just fell into the "wrong crowd" after being raised "right?"

When parents become more accountable, they will see the need for being ...stricter, firmer, etc, in the upbringing of the child.

 

[dilloduck]

There are always those kids who end up with "the wrong crowd" - however, the odds of the kids turning out "right" has to increase if they start out with the "right" base.

You can't be suggesting that every single person in prison just fell into the "wrong crowd" after being raised "right?"

When parents become more accountable, they will see the need for being ...stricter, firmer, etc, in the upbringing of the child.

I'm all for promoting good parenting. I just am challenging the idea that punishing the adult for the crimes committed by their children will promote good parenting or teach the child anything that he hasn't already been told before. Parents CANNOT control everything their children do--plain and simple.

Your kid gets his drivers license suspended for a year so you, as a parent, are going to accept losing YOUR license for a year too as a just and reasonable punishment? I seriously doubt it.

 

[Bonnie]

I was just curious as to what kind of experience you were speaking from. There are MANY good parents who have done everything they could to raise a responsible and positive child but the child eventually got in with the wrong crowd and succumbed to peer pressure ( which is WAY more of an influence on some children as they grow older ). Sending this parent to jail or levying a heavy fine will do NOTHING to change this child but sure as hell will harm the parent.

You have good point, on the flip side of that, there are a lot of parents who live to say "my kid would never do that" or "what did you do to instigate them?"
Its funny how in parenting there seems to be two polar oposites, some that do everything they can to raise good kids even to the point of home schooling and the others that buy their kids anything they want out of guilt for working all the time.
Not being a parent yet myself I don't know what the answer is really, just putting forth my observations.

 

[dilloduck]

You have good point, on the flip side of that, there are a lot of parents who live to say "my kid would never do that" or "what did you do to instigate them?"
Its funny how in parenting there seems to be two polar oposites, some that do everything they can to raise good kids even to the point of home schooling and the others that buy their kids anything they want out of guilt for working all the time.
Not being a parent yet myself I don't know what the answer is really, just putting forth my observations.

True---parenting is one of the hardest jobs in the world but is punishing parents for the sins of their children guaranteed to make them better at it?
I would imagine the first thing that would happen is that the parent would get really pissed at the child and I'm not sure that's a great thing to instill.
What if you have more than one child and one commits a crime--when they "punish" you are they not also taking a parent away from the other children that may be doing perfectly fine?

 

[Mr. P]

While I agree parenting is the major part of the problem, I don’t think it will do much if any good to hold them responsible for what they “should have done” in the past. (Now that's not an absolute, okay..exceptions apply.)

Realistically, if these kids aren’t listening to parents, punishing parents isn’t going to change that, IMO..

I’d …do something like this….

First offense….Fine the kid.
Second offense…Fine the kid plus community service.
Third Offense…Fine the kid, Jail time 30 days and community service.
Forth…….Fine the kid and parents, Jail time of 6 months for the kid and community service.

*If the kid can’t pay the fine, community service is extended.

I’d bet most would be home before curfew as long as this was enforced.

 

[GotZoom]

I'm all for promoting good parenting. I just am challenging the idea that punishing the adult for the crimes committed by their children will promote good parenting or teach the child anything that he hasn't already been told before. Parents CANNOT control everything their children do--plain and simple.

Your kid gets his drivers license suspended for a year so you, as a parent, are going to accept losing YOUR license for a year too as a just and reasonable punishment? I seriously doubt it.

I wonder if that kid who lost his license would have - had he been raised "right" the first 16 years of his life.

I can't say specifically of course, but I dare say that if you looked at the percentage of kids raised "right" and not raised "right", there would be many more "troubled" kids out of the "not right" column.

 

[GotZoom]

While I agree parenting is the major part of the problem, I don’t think it will do much if any good to hold them responsible for what they “should have done” in the past. (Now that's not an absolute, okay..exceptions apply.)

Realistically, if these kids aren’t listening to parents, punishing parents isn’t going to change that, IMO..

I’d …do something like this….

First offense….Fine the kid.
Second offense…Fine the kid plus community service.
Third Offense…Fine the kid, Jail time 30 days and community service.
Forth…….Fine the kid and parents, Jail time of 6 months for the kid and community service.

*If the kid can’t pay the fine, community service is extended.

I’d bet most would be home before curfew as long as this was enforced.

It would be hard to "go back" but we have to start somewhere.

I like your sentencing structure...with small modifications:

First offense….Fine the parents - they will get the money out of the kid in one way or another; allowance, etc.
Second offense…Fine the parents plus community service for both kid and parents.
Third Offense…Fine the parents, Jail time 30 days for the kid and community service for both kid and parents.
Forth…….Fine the parents, Jail time of 6 months for the kid and community service for both the kid and parents.

The fine will hit the parents with either the kid or parent being fined .. so make it the parent.

Community service for both will eliminate the kid doing it after school before the parents get home. They won't be affected. If the parent has to pick up trash on the freeway on a day off from work, you know those parents will be disciplining their kid.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

It starts at home - the upbringing. Nothing else.

Wrong. Other factors come into play in determining the way a person turns out. Parents lay the foundation, but then kids come into contact with all sorts of outside influences: friends, neighbors, classmates, other parents, other adults, gang members, crack heads, etc. It's easy, especially when you're living in a crime-ridden area, to fall-in with the wrong crowd. You hear stories all the time from "good" parents whose kids are in jail or dead or throwing their lives away because they took the wrong path. Parents can't control the decisions their kids make, they can only control what they contribute to the kid. There are more black criminals represented in the statistics because there are more criminal opportunities presented in the places blacks live.