The downside of carrying a firearm...

[OODA_Loop]

I'll ask agian:
How is this standard a sound basis for denying someone their rights?

How is it not ?

Fail.
Support your position by soundly and substantively answering the question, or admit you cannot.

The proliferation and actions of mass shooters and others which take black box warning psychotropic drugs causing suicidal and homicidal ideation have rendered the mentally adjudicated portion of 4473 impotent.

If you must and are taking those drugs, then that is adjudication enough.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Well you have to change my words.

I didn't say anyone is who is medicated. Did I ?

Anyone taking a drug known to make you kill.

No drug makes you kill.

Some are known to increase those thoughts in all ready mentally deficient people.

Not true.

What we actually know is that a statistically insignificant percentage of the people who take these drugs report having suicidal and/or homicidal thoughts. In case you missed it, the key phrase in that sentence is statistically insignificant. The government is great at over reacting to things, the proof of that is that the FDA actually requires that warning you going apeshit over even though the FDA doesn't believe that there is a causal link between the drugs and the thoughts. They also found that, despite the tenuous link between the drugs and suicidal thoughts, absolutely no one actually killed themselves while taking these drugs.

What are the real risks of antidepressants? - Harvard Health Publications

NIMH · Antidepressant Medications for Children and Adolescents: Information for Parents and Caregivers

That's right, you want to take away people's rights based on a complete misunderstanding of the science. Drugs do not cause people to kill, period.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

How is it not ?

Fail.
Support your position by soundly and substantively answering the question, or admit you cannot.

The proliferation and actions of mass shooters and others which take black box warning psychotropic drugs causing suicidal and homicidal ideation have rendered the mentally adjudicated portion of 4473 impotent.

If you must and are taking those drugs, then that is adjudication enough.

Your delusions that people who take drugs are shooting people is not a valid reason to take away the rights of everyone on the planet.

 

[OODA_Loop]

No drug makes you kill.

Some are known to increase those thoughts in all ready mentally deficient people.

Not true.

What we actually know is that a statistically insignificant percentage of the people who take these drugs report having suicidal and/or homicidal thoughts. In case you missed it, the key phrase in that sentence is statistically insignificant. The government is great at over reacting to things, the proof of that is that the FDA actually requires that warning you going apeshit over even though the FDA doesn't believe that there is a causal link between the drugs and the thoughts. They also found that, despite the tenuous link between the drugs and suicidal thoughts, absolutely no one actually killed themselves while taking these drugs.

What are the real risks of antidepressants? - Harvard Health Publications

NIMH · Antidepressant Medications for Children and Adolescents: Information for Parents and Caregivers

That's right, you want to take away people's rights based on a complete misunderstanding of the science. Drugs do not cause people to kill, period.

After all those words the NIH still caution patients need to monitored for those type of thoughts and actions. And the warnings remain.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Fail.
Support your position by soundly and substantively answering the question, or admit you cannot.

The proliferation and actions of mass shooters and others which take black box warning psychotropic drugs causing suicidal and homicidal ideation have rendered the mentally adjudicated portion of 4473 impotent.

If you must and are taking those drugs, then that is adjudication enough.

Your delusions that people who take drugs are shooting people is not a valid reason to take away the rights of everyone on the planet.

I am not advocating taking the rights of everyone on the planet.

 

[M14 Shooter]

How is it not ?

Fail.
Support your position by soundly and substantively answering the question, or admit you cannot.

The proliferation and actions of mass shooters ...which take black box warning psychotropic drugs

In the last 10 years, exactly how many times has this happened?

If you must and are taking those drugs, then that is adjudication enough.

"Adjudication" requires a court action, not a prescription.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Fail.
Support your position by soundly and substantively answering the question, or admit you cannot.

The proliferation and actions of mass shooters ...which take black box warning psychotropic drugs

In the last 10 years, exactly how many times has this happened?

At least 31 school shootings and/or school-related acts of violence have been committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs resulting in 162 wounded and 72 killed (in other school shootings, information about their drug use was never made public—neither confirming or refuting if they were under the influence of prescribed drugs). The most important fact about this list, is that these are only cases where the information about their psychiatric drug use was made public.

School Shooters on Drugs | CCHR International

 

[PredFan]

I'm not maligning anyone.

I was asked for my opinion and I answered.

He disobeyed the order of the police. That was the primary act that ended up with Martin being shot.

Zimmerman is an asshole and a hot head. We learned that from all the subsequent shit he's been involved in since he got off.

What makes you think he was any more righteous when he disregarded the order of the police?

It's amazing to me how many people, after the trial and everything, still don't know the facts.

1. The police never ordered Zimmerman to do anything.
2. The primary reason Martin got shot was because he assaulted Zimmerman.
3. Zimmerman had been accused if a lot since, but none of it was true.

Educate yourself or be shown to be a fool.

He was out there trolling for trouble.

It's called "watching his neighborhood" fool.

He thought Martin was suspicious because he was walking down the street and was convinced Martin was a "asshole" when Martin had done nothing.

Bull shit. Where did you get the "asshole" label from? Oh yeah, you made it up like you're making everything else up. Fool.

The dispatcher told him not to follow.

Wrong again fool. That never happened.

and Zimmerman said he was assaulted first there is no other proof to that statement.

Yes there is, he had injuries, and the witnesses corraborated his story.

I am not naive enough to believe that people tell the truth in court when there are no other witnesses to contradict him.

You are both naive and ignorant. Educate yourself.

 

[OODA_Loop]

1. St. Louis, Missouri – January 15, 2013: 34-year-old Sean Johnson walked onto the Stevens Institute of Business & Arts campus and shot the school’s financial aid director once in the chest, then shot himself in the torso. Johnson had been taking prescribed drugs for an undisclosed mental illness.

2.Snohomish County, Washington – October 24, 2011: A 15-year-old girl went to Snohomish High School where police alleged that she stabbed a girl as many as 25 times just before the start of school, and then stabbed another girl who tried to help her injured friend. Prior to the attack the girl had been taking “medication” and seeing a psychiatrist. Court documents said the girl was being treated for depression.

3.Planoise, France – December 13, 2010: A 17-year-old youth held twenty pre-school children and their teacher hostage for hours at Charles Fourier preschool. The teen was reported to be on “medication for depression”. He took a classroom hostage with two swords. Eventually, all the children and the teacher were released safely.

4.Myrtle Beach, South Carolina – September 21, 2011: 14-year-old Christian Helms had two pipe bombs in his backpack, when he shot and wounded Socastee High School’s “resource” (police) officer. However the officer was able to stop the student before he could do anything further. Helms had been taking drugs for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and depression.

5.Huntsville, Alabama – February 5, 2010: 15-year-old Hammad Memon shot and killed another Discover Middle School student Todd Brown. Memon had a history for being treated for ADHD and depression. He was taking the antidepressant Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.” He had been seeing a psychiatrist and psychologist.

6.Kauhajoki, Finland – September 23, 2008: 22-year-old culinary student Matti Saari shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine. He was also seeing a psychologist.

7.Fresno, California – April 24, 2008: 17-year-old Jesus “Jesse” Carrizales attacked the Fresno high school’s officer, hitting him in the head with a baseball bat. After knocking the officer down, the officer shot Carrizales in self-defense, killing him. Carrizales had been prescribed Lexapro and Geodon, and his autopsy showed that he had a high dose of the antidepressant Lexapro in his blood that could have caused him to be paranoid, according to the coroner.

8.Dekalb, Illinois – February 14, 2008: 27-year-old Steven Kazmierczak shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amount of Xanax in his system. He had been seeing a psychiatrist.

9.Jokela, Finland – November 7, 2007: 18-year-old Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School in southern Finland, then committed suicide.

10.Texas – November 7, 2007: 17-year-old Felicia McMillan returned to her former Robert E. Lee High School campus and stabbed a male student and wounded the principle with a knife. McMillan had been on drugs for depression, and had just taken them the night before the incident.

11.Cleveland, Ohio – October 10, 2007: 14-year-old Asa Coon stormed through his school with a gun in each hand, shooting and wounding four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon had been placed on the antidepressant Trazodone.

12.Sudbury, Massachusetts – January 19, 2007: 16-year-old John Odgren stabbed another student with a large kitchen knife in a boy’s bathroom at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School. In court his father testified that Odgren was prescribed the drug Ritalin.

13.North Vernon, Indiana – December 4, 2006: 16-year-old Travis Roberson stabbed another Jennings County High School student in the neck, nearly severing an artery. Roberson was in withdrawal from Wellbutrin, which he had stopped taking days before the attack.

14.Hillsborough, North Carolina – August 30, 2006: 19-year-old Alvaro Rafael Castillo shot and killed his father, then drove to Orange High School where he opened fire. Two students were injured in the shooting, which ended when school personnel tackled him. His mother said he was on drugs for depression.

15.Chapel Hill, North Carolina – April 2006: 17-year-old William Barrett Foster took a shotgun to school and took a teacher and a fellow student hostage at East Chapel Hill High School. After being talked out of shooting the hostages, Foster fired two shots through a classroom window before fleeing the school on foot. Foster’s father testified that his son had stopped taking his antidepressants and antipsychotic drugs without telling him.

16.Red Lake, Minnesota – March 21, 2005: 16-year-old Jeff Weise, on Prozac, shot and killed his grandparents, then went to his school on the Red Lake Indian Reservation where he shot dead 5 students, a security guard, and a teacher, and wounded 7 before killing himself.

17.Greenbush, New York – February 2004: 16-year-old Jon Romano strolled into his high school in east Greenbush and opened fire with a shotgun. Special education teacher Michael Bennett was hit in the leg. Romano had been taking “medication for depression”. He had previously seen a psychiatrist.

18.Red Lion, Pennsylvania – February 2, 2001: 56-year-old William Michael Stankewicz entered North Hopewell-Winterstown Elementary School with a machete, leaving three adults and 11 children injured. Stankewicz was taking four different drugs for depression and anxiety weeks before the attacks.

19.Ikeda, Japan – June 8, 2001: 37-year-old Mamoru Takuma, wielding a 6-inch knife, slipped into an elementary school and stabbed eight first- and second-graders to death while wounding at least 15 other pupils and teachers. He then turned the knife on himself but suffered only superficial wounds. He later told interrogators that before the attack he had taken 10 times his normal dose of antidepressants.

20.Wahluke, Washington – April 10, 2001: Sixteen-year-old Cory Baadsgaard took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates and a teacher hostage. He had been taking the antidepressant Effexor.

21.El Cajon, California – March 22, 2001: 18-year-old Jason Hoffman, on the antidepressants Celexa and Effexor, opened fire on his classmates, wounding three students and two teachers at Granite Hills High School. He had been seeing a psychiatrist before the shooting.

22.Williamsport, Pennsylvania – March 7, 2001: 14-year-old Elizabeth Bush was taking the antidepressant Prozac when she shot at fellow students, wounding one.

23.Oxnard, California – January 2001: 17-year-old Richard Lopez went to Hueneme High School with a gun and shot twice at a car in the school’s parking lot before taking a female student hostage. Lopez was eventually killed by a SWAT officer. He had been prescribed Prozac, Paxil and “drugs that helped him go to sleep.”

24.Conyers, Georgia – May 20, 1999: 15-year-old T.J. Solomon was being treated with the stimulant Ritalin when he opened fire on and wounded six of his classmates.

25.Columbine, Colorado – April 20, 1999: 18-year-old Eric Harris and his accomplice, Dylan Klebold, killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 26 others before killing themselves. Harris was on the antidepressant Luvox. Klebold’s medical records remain sealed. Both shooters had been in anger-management classes and had undergone counseling. Harris had been seeing a psychiatrist before the shooting.

26.Notus, Idaho – April 16, 1999: 15-year-old Shawn Cooper fired two shotgun rounds in his school, narrowly missing students. He was taking a prescribed antidepressant and Ritalin.

27.Springfield, Oregon – May 21, 1998: 15-year-old Kip Kinkel murdered his parents and then proceeded to school where he opened fire on students in the cafeteria, killing two and wounding 25. Kinkel had been taking the antidepressant Prozac. Kinkel had been attending “anger control classes” and was under the care of a psychologist.

28.Blackville, South Carolina – October 12, 1995: 15-year-old Toby R. Sincino slipped into the Blackville-Hilda High School’s rear entrance, where he shot two Blackville-Hilda High School teachers, killing one. Then Toby killed himself moments later. His aunt, Carolyn McCreary, said he had been undergoing counseling with the Department of Mental Health and was taking Zoloft for emotional problems.

29.Chelsea, Michigan – December 17, 1993: 39-year-old chemistry teacher Stephen Leith, facing a disciplinary matter at Chelsea High School, shot Superintendent Joseph Piasecki to death, shot Principal Ron Mead in the leg, and slightly wounded journalism teacher Phil Jones. Leith was taking Prozac and had been seeing a psychiatrist.

30.Houston, Texas – September 18, 1992: 44-year-old Calvin Charles Bell, reportedly upset about his second-grader’s progress report, appeared in the principal’s office of Piney Point Elementary School. Bell fired a gun in the school, and eventually wounded two officers before surrendering. Relatives told police on Friday that Bell was an unemployed Vietnam veteran and had been taking anti-depressants.

31.Winnetka, Illinois – 20 May 1988: 30-year-old Laurie Wasserman Dann walked into a second grade classroom at Hubbard Woods School in Winnetka, Illinois carrying three pistols and began shooting children, killing an eight-year-old boy, and wounding five others before fleeing. She entered a nearby house where she shot and wounded a 20-year-old man before killing herself. Dann had been seeing a psychiatrist and subsequent blood tests revealed that at the time of the killings, she was taking the antidepressant Anafranil.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Nearly Every Mass Shooting In The Last 20 Years Shares One Thing In Common, & It's NOT Weapons

 

[OODA_Loop]

Mass shooters and meds. What they all have in common. | KETK | East Texas News, Weather and Sports | Tyler, Longview, Jacksonville

 

[M14 Shooter]

The proliferation and actions of mass shooters ...which take

In the last 10 years, exactly how many times has this happened?

At least 31 school shootings and/or school-related acts of violence have been committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs resulting in 162 wounded and 72 killed (in other school shootings, information about their drug use was never made public—neither confirming or refuting if they were under the influence of prescribed drugs). The most important fact about this list, is that these are only cases where the information about their psychiatric drug use was made public.
School Shooters on Drugs | CCHR International

The list you provided includes individuals documented to have been under the influence of "psychiatric drugs" and included instances unrelated to guns.

I asked for the number of ishootings in the last 10 years involving a person that had been on "black box warning psychotropic drugs."

Please try again.

 

[JimH52]

WOW! This thread has gone Viral! Huh?

 

[OODA_Loop]

In the last 10 years, exactly how many times has this happened?

At least 31 school shootings and/or school-related acts of violence have been committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs resulting in 162 wounded and 72 killed (in other school shootings, information about their drug use was never made public—neither confirming or refuting if they were under the influence of prescribed drugs). The most important fact about this list, is that these are only cases where the information about their psychiatric drug use was made public.
School Shooters on Drugs | CCHR International

The list you provided includes individuals documented to have been under the influence of "psychiatric drugs" and included instances unrelated to guns.

I asked for the number of ishootings in the last 10 years involving a person that had been on "black box warning psychotropic drugs."

Please try again.

From that list....... 13 identified that contain black box warnings....all the SSRI, SNRI, SDRI etc. since 2004 (10 years)

Is that really the intellectual level you're coming back with ?

 

[OODA_Loop]

12:17 AM CDT on Monday, July 10, 2006
Associated Press

HOUSTON - An antidepressant that Andrea Yates had been taking before she drowned her five children in 2001 has recently been found to possibly increase the risk of homicidal thoughts, according to a medical watchdog group that says Effexor's manufacturer has not warned the public.

"Homicidal ideation" was added last year as one of the drug's rare adverse events on Effexor XR's label and on Wyeth's Web site.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration defines rare as occurring in less than one in 1,000 people. In the U.S. alone, about 19.2 million prescriptions for Effexor were filled last year, but that does not reflect the number of people who take the drug because some of those are refills.

Dr. Moira Dolan, executive director of the Medical Accountability Network, said she discovered the labeling change about two weeks ago when she stumbled across the FDA's MedWatch newsletter from November. The Madison, N.J.-based drug company did not send letters to doctors or issue warning labels.

"People need to be warned that this is a possible side effect," Dolan, an Austin doctor who has reviewed Yates' medical records but is not involved in the case, said Sunday. "Families don't know to be aware of this possible effect. As doctors, we're not going to look through 36 pages of labeling."

Effexor is Wyeth's top-selling drug, with $3.46 billion in 2005 sales worldwide, more than twice the total for its No. 2 product and 18 percent of its total revenues for last year.

"We believe there is no causal link between Effexor and homicidality," said Wyeth spokeswoman Gwen Fisher. "In our minds, we've taken every precaution."

She said that as Effexor was being studied for use in treating panic disorder, Wyeth found that only one person reported having homicidal thoughts in its clinical trial. Fisher said she did not know the trial date.

In approving Wyeth's application to use Effexor for that disorder, the FDA wanted homicidal ideation listed as a rare adverse event, defined as something not proven to be linked to the drug, Fisher said. That is different from an adverse reaction, she said.

Wyeth never notified doctors or issued warning labels because it found no causal link between its drug and homicidal thoughts, Fisher said.

Dolan said the current Web site label mentions homicidal thoughts in the middle of a paragraph on page 36. Fisher said the warning about "homicidal ideation" also appears on the one-page package insert given to all patients.

In 2004, the FDA ordered that all antidepressants carry "black box" warnings that they increase the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior in children. That action was driven by data that showed that, on average, 2 to 3 percent of children taking antidepressants have increased suicidal thoughts and actions. The link is stronger with Effexor than with other antidepressants in the same class of drugs.

James T. O'Donnell, assistant professor of pharmacology at Rush University Medical Center in Chicago and the author of "Drug Injury: Liability, Analysis, and Prevention," said the homicidal ideation issue should be on the same level of public awareness.

"For something as final as homicide, that's important to know about," O'Donnell said.

But Fisher said the drug is safe and effective. Yates, who remains jailed, continues taking Effexor as well as an anti-psychotic drug to help stabilize her mental illness, according to a psychiatrist testifying in Yates' retrial that started two weeks ago.

Yates, 42, has pleaded innocent by reason of insanity in her second murder trial. Her 2002 capital murder conviction was overturned on appeal because some erroneous testimony may have influenced jurors.

Yates had been prescribed Effexor in varying doses since shortly after her first suicide attempt in 1999, said Dolan, who reviewed her medical records after her first trial at the request of her then-husband, Rusty Yates. A month before the murders, her daily dose had increased to 450 mg, twice the recommended maximum dose, Dolan said.

Her lead attorney, George Parnham, has criticized the amount of medications Yates was prescribed before the children's bathtub drowning deaths. He said Wyeth should have publicized information about the possible connection between Effexor and thoughts of murder, but he said that will not affect Yates' case.

"Obviously this is a severely mentally ill individual who was on a plethora of psychiatric meds," Parnham said. "There's no question mental illness killed those children."

Parnham said Yates suffered from postpartum psychosis and drowned the children in the family bathtub while in a delusional state, which likely was exacerbated after she was suddenly taken off Haldol, a strong anti-psychotic drug.

Yates, being tried in only three of the deaths, will be sentenced to life in prison if convicted.

Effexor sales rose only 3.3 percent in 2005, compared with 2004, but jumped 8.8 percent in the first quarter of this year, to $945 million

 

[OODA_Loop]

A Canadian judge has ruled that Prozac caused a teenage boy to murder his friend, as the drug caused him to overreact “in an impulsive, explosive and violent way”
Many drugs, particularly antidepressants, are associated with violence, including suicidal and homicidal tendencies. Of the top 10 drugs linked to violence, half are antidepressants

The Damaging Effects of Prozac and Other Antidepressants

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Some are known to increase those thoughts in all ready mentally deficient people.

Not true.

What we actually know is that a statistically insignificant percentage of the people who take these drugs report having suicidal and/or homicidal thoughts. In case you missed it, the key phrase in that sentence is statistically insignificant. The government is great at over reacting to things, the proof of that is that the FDA actually requires that warning you going apeshit over even though the FDA doesn't believe that there is a causal link between the drugs and the thoughts. They also found that, despite the tenuous link between the drugs and suicidal thoughts, absolutely no one actually killed themselves while taking these drugs.

What are the real risks of antidepressants? - Harvard Health Publications

NIMH · Antidepressant Medications for Children and Adolescents: Information for Parents and Caregivers

That's right, you want to take away people's rights based on a complete misunderstanding of the science. Drugs do not cause people to kill, period.

After all those words the NIH still caution patients need to monitored for those type of thoughts and actions. And the warnings remain.

Did you miss the part where I said the government always overreacts?

By the way, does this mean I made my point? Drugs do not cause the thoughts, and, even if they did, they definitely do not cause any actions.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The proliferation and actions of mass shooters and others which take black box warning psychotropic drugs causing suicidal and homicidal ideation have rendered the mentally adjudicated portion of 4473 impotent.

If you must and are taking those drugs, then that is adjudication enough.

Your delusions that people who take drugs are shooting people is not a valid reason to take away the rights of everyone on the planet.

I am not advocating taking the rights of everyone on the planet.

You actually are, you just are not honest enough to recognize it.

 

[OODA_Loop]

By the way, does this mean I made my point? Drugs do not cause the thoughts, and, even if they did, they definitely do not cause any actions.

You made your point.

To say drugs do not cause thoughts and actions is inaccurate.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The proliferation and actions of mass shooters ...which take black box warning psychotropic drugs

In the last 10 years, exactly how many times has this happened?

At least 31 school shootings and/or school-related acts of violence have been committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs resulting in 162 wounded and 72 killed (in other school shootings, information about their drug use was never made public—neither confirming or refuting if they were under the influence of prescribed drugs). The most important fact about this list, is that these are only cases where the information about their psychiatric drug use was made public.

School Shooters on Drugs | CCHR International

I already proved, using government sources, that your contention is bullshit. Using a source that wants to eliminate drugs as a way to treat mental illness just makes my case all the more convincing.