The glaring evidence that Obamacare is a catastrophic FAILURE continues to mount

[PMZ]

The right to choose your own level of risk tolerance is freedom.

Let me ask you this, PMZ. If your justification for the mandate is your worry that someone is going to push their health care costs off on you, how about letting people opt out of both the mandate, and the provisions of EMTALA? Anyone who, at the end of the year, fails to meet the regulators minimum insurance requirements must either pay the fine as per ACA or forfeit their rights under EMTALA. Hospitals, if they wanted to take the hard line, would be free to refuse them service without payment up front.

Now, I know this wouldn't fly with the insurance industry lobbyists who wrote ACA, and I'm not really interested in discussing the details of actually implementing the policy, but I'm trying to understand your point of view. Would this sort of provision satisfy your concerns?

My experience is that even though people might choose lives of risk and choose to forfeit their EMTALA rights, they can't turn off their survival instinct. When push came to shove they'd dump the load on others most often through bankruptcy, but the alternative is crime.

That's sort of what I thought. This isn't about protecting your rights. It's about controlling other people.

Yes. Irresponsible people need to be taught responsibility. That’s what we do as parents. That's what we do as managers. That's what we do as citizens. The generic term is accountability.

 

[dblack]

My experience is that even though people might choose lives of risk and choose to forfeit their EMTALA rights, they can't turn off their survival instinct. When push came to shove they'd dump the load on others most often through bankruptcy, but the alternative is crime.

That's sort of what I thought. This isn't about protecting your rights. It's about controlling other people.

Yes. Irresponsible people need to be taught responsibility. That’s what we do as parents. That's what we do as managers. That's what we do as citizens. The generic term is accountability.

Authoritarian covers it as well. There's a difference between government that protects individual rights and government that dictates how people live. It's clear which you prefer.

 

[PMZ]

That's sort of what I thought. This isn't about protecting your rights. It's about controlling other people.

Yes. Irresponsible people need to be taught responsibility. That’s what we do as parents. That's what we do as managers. That's what we do as citizens. The generic term is accountability.

Authoritarian covers it as well. There's a difference between government that protects individual rights and government that dictates how people live. It's clear which you prefer.

I believe in maximum freedom. That means minimizing the impact of those who would impose what's best for them on me.

Do you agree?

 

[dblack]

Yes. Irresponsible people need to be taught responsibility. That’s what we do as parents. That's what we do as managers. That's what we do as citizens. The generic term is accountability.

Authoritarian covers it as well. There's a difference between government that protects individual rights and government that dictates how people live. It's clear which you prefer.

I believe in maximum freedom. That means minimizing the impact of those who would impose what's best for them on me.

Do you agree?

No. I don't agree that you believe in maximizing freedom. You seem to be heavily invested in minimizing it for your convenience.

 

[PMZ]

Authoritarian covers it as well. There's a difference between government that protects individual rights and government that dictates how people live. It's clear which you prefer.

I believe in maximum freedom. That means minimizing the impact of those who would impose what's best for them on me.

Do you agree?

No. I don't agree that you believe in maximizing freedom. You seem to be heavily invested in minimizing it for your convenience.

I believe in maximum freedom. That means minimizing the impact of those who would impose what's best for them on me.

Do you agree?

 

[dblack]

I believe in maximum freedom. That means minimizing the impact of those who would impose what's best for them on me.

Do you agree?

No. I don't agree that you believe in maximizing freedom. You seem to be heavily invested in minimizing it for your convenience.

I believe in maximum freedom. That means minimizing the impact of those who would impose what's best for them on me.

Do you agree?

Yes. But you don't. You seem to be very wiling to impose what is you desire on others - insurance for example.

 

[PMZ]

No. I don't agree that you believe in maximizing freedom. You seem to be heavily invested in minimizing it for your convenience.

I believe in maximum freedom. That means minimizing the impact of those who would impose what's best for them on me.

Do you agree?

Yes. But you don't. You seem to be very wiling to impose what is you desire on others - insurance for example.

They would impose the cost of their health care on me. That restricts my financial freedom for no reason.

 

[dblack]

I believe in maximum freedom. That means minimizing the impact of those who would impose what's best for them on me.

Do you agree?

Yes. But you don't. You seem to be very wiling to impose what is you desire on others - insurance for example.

They would impose the cost of their health care on me. That restricts my financial freedom for no reason.

No, that is your guilty-until-proven-innocent presumption. it is not fact.

 

[PMZ]

Yes. But you don't. You seem to be very wiling to impose what is you desire on others - insurance for example.

They would impose the cost of their health care on me. That restricts my financial freedom for no reason.

No, that is your guilty-until-proven-innocent presumption. it is not fact.

If they are not prepared to pay for their own health care they are counting on us to do it. No? What other choice is there?

 

[dblack]

They would impose the cost of their health care on me. That restricts my financial freedom for no reason.

No, that is your guilty-until-proven-innocent presumption. it is not fact.

If they are not prepared to pay for their own health care they are counting on us to do it. No?

You're still resting on this hypocritical assumption based on EMTALA guarantees.

 

[PMZ]

No, that is your guilty-until-proven-innocent presumption. it is not fact.

If they are not prepared to pay for their own health care they are counting on us to do it. No?

You're still resting on this hypocritical assumption based on EMTALA guarantees.

Yes. I would not choose to live in a lessor country. Apparently that's a majority opinion. Otherwise EMTALA would not be law.

 

[auditor0007]

It is sad that this has to happen.

It's also sad that the GOP has convinced people of "death panels", "losing freedom" and all the other hysterical nonsense that you sheep believe, that have actually made you think you hate a law that is a Republican idea.

So yeah, it's sad that a campaign needs to be waged to combat such blatant misinformation.

Wait - let me get this straight - you believe you're not losing freedom under Obamacare [MENTION=23461]RDD_1210[/MENTION]?!?

The federal government now forces you to make a purchase. How is that not losing freedom in your mind? I can't wait to hear this absurd explanation.

By the way - "death panels" are a 100% certainty and now that they've passed Obamacare, the left has even admitted as much. Perhaps you need to wake up to reality? When the federal government has limited funds and unlimited health issues to address, they will have to decide who gets treatment and who doesn't (just like the do in Canada, just like they do in England, just like they do in <insert idiot socialized medicine nation here>, etc.).

You are one willfully ignorant buffoon, aren't you? Oh well, ignorance is bliss I guess...

Oh shit, I'm being forced to purchase something that I should be responsible enough to purchase on my own. I take it you're not responsible enough to buy insurance on your own or to make certain you and your family are covered? That's the damn problem with cons who ascribe to self determination, self reliance, and self responsibility, and then support a person's right to be as irresponsible as possible. It's laughable.

 

[dblack]

If they are not prepared to pay for their own health care they are counting on us to do it. No?

You're still resting on this hypocritical assumption based on EMTALA guarantees.

Yes. I would not choose to live in a lessor country. Apparently that's a majority opinion. Otherwise EMTALA would not be law.

Right. It's the catch 22 at the core of your entire premise. You insist on EMTALA style laws, and then demand that anyone who utilizes on them be punished. Sorta fucked up as I see it. If you don't want to help people who don't have insurance, then don't. Jeez.

 

[dblack]

It is sad that this has to happen.

It's also sad that the GOP has convinced people of "death panels", "losing freedom" and all the other hysterical nonsense that you sheep believe, that have actually made you think you hate a law that is a Republican idea.

So yeah, it's sad that a campaign needs to be waged to combat such blatant misinformation.

Wait - let me get this straight - you believe you're not losing freedom under Obamacare [MENTION=23461]RDD_1210[/MENTION]?!?

The federal government now forces you to make a purchase. How is that not losing freedom in your mind? I can't wait to hear this absurd explanation.

By the way - "death panels" are a 100% certainty and now that they've passed Obamacare, the left has even admitted as much. Perhaps you need to wake up to reality? When the federal government has limited funds and unlimited health issues to address, they will have to decide who gets treatment and who doesn't (just like the do in Canada, just like they do in England, just like they do in <insert idiot socialized medicine nation here>, etc.).

You are one willfully ignorant buffoon, aren't you? Oh well, ignorance is bliss I guess...

Oh shit, I'm being forced to purchase something that I should be responsible enough to purchase on my own. I take it you're not responsible enough to buy insurance on your own or to make certain you and your family are covered? That's the damn problem with cons who ascribe to self determination, self reliance, and self responsibility, and then support a person's right to be as irresponsible as possible. It's laughable.

I don't think you really understand the concept of responsibility. Responsibility is accepting the consequences of your decisions. Not paying for the privilege of avoiding them.

 

[PMZ]

Wait - let me get this straight - you believe you're not losing freedom under Obamacare [MENTION=23461]RDD_1210[/MENTION]?!?

The federal government now forces you to make a purchase. How is that not losing freedom in your mind? I can't wait to hear this absurd explanation.

By the way - "death panels" are a 100% certainty and now that they've passed Obamacare, the left has even admitted as much. Perhaps you need to wake up to reality? When the federal government has limited funds and unlimited health issues to address, they will have to decide who gets treatment and who doesn't (just like the do in Canada, just like they do in England, just like they do in <insert idiot socialized medicine nation here>, etc.).

You are one willfully ignorant buffoon, aren't you? Oh well, ignorance is bliss I guess...

Oh shit, I'm being forced to purchase something that I should be responsible enough to purchase on my own. I take it you're not responsible enough to buy insurance on your own or to make certain you and your family are covered? That's the damn problem with cons who ascribe to self determination, self reliance, and self responsibility, and then support a person's right to be as irresponsible as possible. It's laughable.

I don't think you really understand the concept of responsibility. Responsibility is accepting the consequences of your decisions. Not paying for the privilege of avoiding them.

I don't see survival as something that most people consider optional. An acceptable consequence. I'm pretty sure that if I needed health care to survive, I'd get it. I'd do what it takes.

 

[dblack]

Oh shit, I'm being forced to purchase something that I should be responsible enough to purchase on my own. I take it you're not responsible enough to buy insurance on your own or to make certain you and your family are covered? That's the damn problem with cons who ascribe to self determination, self reliance, and self responsibility, and then support a person's right to be as irresponsible as possible. It's laughable.

I don't think you really understand the concept of responsibility. Responsibility is accepting the consequences of your decisions. Not paying for the privilege of avoiding them.

I don't see survival as something that most people consider optional. An acceptable consequence. I'm pretty sure that if I needed health care to survive, I'd get it. I'd do what it takes.

What do you mean?

 

[PMZ]

I don't think you really understand the concept of responsibility. Responsibility is accepting the consequences of your decisions. Not paying for the privilege of avoiding them.

I don't see survival as something that most people consider optional. An acceptable consequence. I'm pretty sure that if I needed health care to survive, I'd get it. I'd do what it takes.

What do you mean?

That if my life depended on it, I'd do what I had to do.

 

[dblack]

I don't see survival as something that most people consider optional. An acceptable consequence. I'm pretty sure that if I needed health care to survive, I'd get it. I'd do what it takes.

What do you mean?

That if my life depended on it, I'd do what I had to do.

Ok.

 

[dblack]

Here's the thing, PMZ. Your political ideology is assumes the goal of government is to drive everyone toward some kind of 'right way to live', and I reject that ideology. I believe government is there to protect us from bullies, not to BE the bully.

 

[auditor0007]

Wait - let me get this straight - you believe you're not losing freedom under Obamacare [MENTION=23461]RDD_1210[/MENTION]?!?

The federal government now forces you to make a purchase. How is that not losing freedom in your mind? I can't wait to hear this absurd explanation.

By the way - "death panels" are a 100% certainty and now that they've passed Obamacare, the left has even admitted as much. Perhaps you need to wake up to reality? When the federal government has limited funds and unlimited health issues to address, they will have to decide who gets treatment and who doesn't (just like the do in Canada, just like they do in England, just like they do in <insert idiot socialized medicine nation here>, etc.).

You are one willfully ignorant buffoon, aren't you? Oh well, ignorance is bliss I guess...

Oh shit, I'm being forced to purchase something that I should be responsible enough to purchase on my own. I take it you're not responsible enough to buy insurance on your own or to make certain you and your family are covered? That's the damn problem with cons who ascribe to self determination, self reliance, and self responsibility, and then support a person's right to be as irresponsible as possible. It's laughable.

I don't think you really understand the concept of responsibility. Responsibility is accepting the consequences of your decisions. Not paying for the privilege of avoiding them.

For those of you who "choose" not to purchase insurance, there isn't a huge consequence because you will likely still receive the care you need. The difference is that those of us who do pay for insurance will end up footing your bills. Now if you chose not to purchase insurance and the hospital could turn you away if you could not pay, that would work for me. They could tell you to go home and die because you weren't smart enough to pay for insurance or aren't wealthy enough to be self-insured. Those of you who support the idea that you should go without insurance because it costs too much are no better than those who live off of welfare and never try to find a job.