The global warming thread. Is it for real?

[PMZ]

Wow...you really suck at the critical/analytical thinking thing, dontcha?

I don't need intuition to recognize that you have no science that passes scientific acid tests, which have been the standard for literally centuries.

The onus is on you and the warmerists scaremongers to prove yourselves right, with physically quantifiable, verifiable and reproducible evidence, not upon anyone else to prove a negative.

That's how science works, Dudley.

Nobody is required to exceed the standard that you present.

So, you're stupid is sufficient as proof for you.

Wake up! Pay attention Miss South Carolina! You must MEET the standards set by the scientific community. You havn't. Your standards are SUBSTANTIALLY LOWER than would be acceptable for even a high school lab class.

We have, you haven't. What you think those standards are is completely irrelevent as you have no scientific credibility. You have thrown whatever credibility most people give out of respect for other's opinions away by demonstrating that you don't meet minimum standards for education or understanding.

 

[westwall]

I find it hard to recall any "sustainable societies" from the past, let alone a sustainable society which has collapsed.

To the best of my knowldge sustainable societies are a new development .

I would appreciate if you supported your statement with some examples , and links ( or book references ).

ALL societies from antiquity would classify as sustainable. Read about them and learn....

Again your limitation is language. "Sustainable" means capable of existing for the long term. Anything that can't exist over the long run is called "unsustainable".

Your limitation is intellectual honesty. The enviro classification is the same that has witnessed countless societies fail throughout the millennia. There is no "sustainable". There is "we produce more than we need so that when the disaster happens we can weather it...or we don't".

 

[westwall]

Nobody is required to exceed the standard that you present.

So, you're stupid is sufficient as proof for you.

Wake up! Pay attention Miss South Carolina! You must MEET the standards set by the scientific community. You havn't. Your standards are SUBSTANTIALLY LOWER than would be acceptable for even a high school lab class.

We have, you haven't. What you think those standards are is completely irrelevent as you have no scientific credibility. You have thrown whatever credibility most people give out of respect for other's opinions away by demonstrating that you don't meet minimum standards for education or understanding.

I see you were looking in the mirror when you made that statement there mr. troll.

 

[PMZ]

Every tribe of nomadic or semi nomadic hunter gatherers have been, by defninition, sustainable societies...and history has shown time and time again that a natural disaster, even a small one by our standards is enough to send them into extinction.

Every sustainable anything has demonstrated that by sustaining.

Until they failed. The societies that succeeded..the ones we read about, are those that provided more for their citizens. Those are the societies that had a built in safety margin.
The ones you talk about are those that we know of thanks to archeology.

If they failed they were not, by definition, sustainable.

 

[PMZ]

Wake up! Pay attention Miss South Carolina! You must MEET the standards set by the scientific community. You havn't. Your standards are SUBSTANTIALLY LOWER than would be acceptable for even a high school lab class.

We have, you haven't. What you think those standards are is completely irrelevent as you have no scientific credibility. You have thrown whatever credibility most people give out of respect for other's opinions away by demonstrating that you don't meet minimum standards for education or understanding.

I see you were looking in the mirror when you made that statement there mr. troll.

Is that really the best that you've got? Really?

 

[Oddball]

I have repeatedly told you my standards...Which are also standards of science that have stood for hundreds of years.

If you continue claiming that you have science when your "science" can't even get in the same area code as those standards, yet carry on as though your "science" is incontrovertible, then you are stupid...Stupid.

LOL. Every Scientific Society, every National Academy of Science, and every major University in the world says your 'Standards' are bullshit.

Love it when the anti-science crowd claims science.

Right....Every single solitary scientist and university is on board with the hoaxers, and their complete lack of traditionally accepted scientific method.

That's why the Oregon Petition has over 31,000 signators.

 

[PMZ]

ALL societies from antiquity would classify as sustainable. Read about them and learn....

Again your limitation is language. "Sustainable" means capable of existing for the long term. Anything that can't exist over the long run is called "unsustainable".

Your limitation is intellectual honesty. The enviro classification is the same that has witnessed countless societies fail throughout the millennia. There is no "sustainable". There is "we produce more than we need so that when the disaster happens we can weather it...or we don't".

Your limitation is intellectual.

Sustainable means capable of being sustained. Therefore our global supply of multimillion year old plants that were prevented from rotting by temporary conditions is not sustainable. Sun and wind and water energy is.

 

[PMZ]

I have repeatedly told you my standards...Which are also standards of science that have stood for hundreds of years.

If you continue claiming that you have science when your "science" can't even get in the same area code as those standards, yet carry on as though your "science" is incontrovertible, then you are stupid...Stupid.

LOL. Every Scientific Society, every National Academy of Science, and every major University in the world says your 'Standards' are bullshit.

Love it when the anti-science crowd claims science.

Right....Every single solitary scientist and university is on board with the hoaxers, and their complete lack of traditionally accepted scientific method.

That's why the Oregon Petition has over 31,000 signators.

I assume that one of those signatures was yours. Look at your avatar. 'Nuff said.

 

[westwall]

Again your limitation is language. "Sustainable" means capable of existing for the long term. Anything that can't exist over the long run is called "unsustainable".

Your limitation is intellectual honesty. The enviro classification is the same that has witnessed countless societies fail throughout the millennia. There is no "sustainable". There is "we produce more than we need so that when the disaster happens we can weather it...or we don't".

Your limitation is intellectual.

Sustainable means capable of being sustained. Therefore our global supply of multimillion year old plants that were prevented from rotting by temporary conditions is not sustainable. Sun and wind and water energy is.

OK, Mr. troll. Lay out what a sustainable society looks like. Present what and how the food is created and transported. The same for energy, water and hosing. We'll ignore the other things for now. Just start with these.

 

[PMZ]

I have repeatedly told you my standards...Which are also standards of science that have stood for hundreds of years.

If you continue claiming that you have science when your "science" can't even get in the same area code as those standards, yet carry on as though your "science" is incontrovertible, then you are stupid...Stupid.

LOL. Every Scientific Society, every National Academy of Science, and every major University in the world says your 'Standards' are bullshit.

Love it when the anti-science crowd claims science.

Right....Every single solitary scientist and university is on board with the hoaxers, and their complete lack of traditionally accepted scientific method.

That's why the Oregon Petition has over 31,000 signators.

What you need to keep avoiding is that you have nothing. No evidence. No theories about how GHGs avoid AGW. No credibility. Standards aren't even relevant in the absence of all of that.

 

[PMZ]

Your limitation is intellectual honesty. The enviro classification is the same that has witnessed countless societies fail throughout the millennia. There is no "sustainable". There is "we produce more than we need so that when the disaster happens we can weather it...or we don't".

Your limitation is intellectual.

Sustainable means capable of being sustained. Therefore our global supply of multimillion year old plants that were prevented from rotting by temporary conditions is not sustainable. Sun and wind and water energy is.

OK, Mr. troll. Lay out what a sustainable society looks like. Present what and how the food is created and transported. The same for energy, water and hosing. We'll ignore the other things for now. Just start with these.

A sustainable society is one that survives for a long time numbnuts.

 

[flacaltenn]

Glimpse of Troll wisdom to get me thru the day...

That's exactly there are no doers paying any attention to the likes of you. The investors and engineers and politicians are doing what our future demands instead of participating in your circle jerk.

So while your Dear Leader of Central Planning is lowering the height of the oceans by providing $BILLIONS to Billionaires making trophy-scale Battery Buggies for Millionaires, the overall and power tool using set with the help of science and engineering are making an economic dynamo out of the bleak Dakotas by finding and creating energy, jobs and growth. IN SPITE of all the impediments thrown in their way..

And your group of serial science abusers are discovering that warming is NOT expected to be instantaneous and be constantly tracking of CO2 -- but that the earth actually STORES thermal energy.
((Duh, why did THAT take climatologists, 20 yrs to discover the diff between power and energy??))

So they are training WALRUSES to dive to the depths to discover the "lost warming".. That last part WAS NOT a joke. (OK, they are pinipeds, not walruses, but It's still funny.)

Yep -- we are safe.. The investors are bailing from the baloney speculations in wind and solar, there's nothing else green on the list to argue about and we can start letting the MARKET and SCIENCE discover the future again...

Glad you're covering our sorry asses... This is why you're still on "ignore"....

 

[SSDD]

Nobody said about exceeding them, Captain Strawman.

Problem is that you warmerist goobers can't come anywhere close to meeting those standards.

So far, he can't even recite the statement of the Second Law of Thermodynamics and say how it might apply to the greenhouse effect hypothesis. Most sixth graders could do that if asked.

"Admitting heat to be a form of energy, the second law asserts that it is impossible, by the unaided action of natural processes, to transform any part of the heat of a body into mechanical work, except by allowing heat to pass from that body into another at a lower temperature. Clausius, who first stated the principle of Carnot in a manner consistent with the true theory of heat, expresses this law as follows: -
It is impossible for a self-acting machine, unaided by any external agency, to convey heat from one body to another at a higher temperature."

"Thomson gives it a slightly different form: -"

"It is impossible, by means of inanimate material agency, to derive mechanical effect from any portion of matter by cooling it below the temperature of the coldest of the surrounding objects."

"And again, later on in The Theory of Heat (page 328), Maxwell has this to say:
One of the best established facts in thermodynamics is that it is impossible in a system enclosed in an envelope which permits neither change of volume nor passage of heat, and in which both the temperature and pressure are everywhere the same, to produce any inequality of temperature or of pressure without the expenditure of work.
A more modern statement of this classical second law may look more complicated, but means the same thing:
Processes in which the entropy of an isolated system would decrease do not occur, or, in every process taking place in an isolated system, the entropy of the system either increases or remains constant
That version of the 2nd law comes from the textbook An Introduction to Thermodynamics, the Kinetic Theory of Gases, and Statistical Mechanics (2nd edition), by Francis Weston Sears, Addison-Wesley, 1950, 1953, page 111 (Chapter 7, "the Second Law of Thermodynamics").
The phrase isolated system means that neither energy nor matter may enter or leave the system; it is an embodiment of the word "unaided" as used by Maxwell & Clausius. If the system is not isolated, then energy can get in, and so can "aid". Hence, isolation is required to uphold the restriction "unaided". The manner in which the "transition" is accomplished is irrelevant; all possible transitions are allowed."

"In the earlier paper On the Definition of Entropy, we already encouterd the equation that defines change in classical entropy, S = Q/T. The 2nd law contrains the change in entropy (S) so as to give us the fundamental equation for the 2nd law, in classical thermodynamics."

From The Second Law of Thermodynamics

So in spite of your appeal to complexity, the second law means that it is not possible for energy to move from a high entropy state to a lower entropy state. Now once again, how does that apply to the stated hypothesis of the greenhouse effect?

 

[SSDD]

Glimpse of Troll wisdom to get me thru the day...

That's exactly there are no doers paying any attention to the likes of you. The investors and engineers and politicians are doing what our future demands instead of participating in your circle jerk.

So while your Dear Leader of Central Planning is lowering the height of the oceans by providing $BILLIONS to Billionaires making trophy-scale Battery Buggies for Millionaires, the overall and power tool using set with the help of science and engineering are making an economic dynamo out of the bleak Dakotas by finding and creating energy, jobs and growth. IN SPITE of all the impediments thrown in their way..

And your group of serial science abusers are discovering that warming is NOT expected to be instantaneous and be constantly tracking of CO2 -- but that the earth actually STORES thermal energy.
((Duh, why did THAT take climatologists, 20 yrs to discover the diff between power and energy??))

So they are training WALRUSES to dive to the depths to discover the "lost warming".. That last part WAS NOT a joke. (OK, they are pinipeds, not walruses, but It's still funny.)

Yep -- we are safe.. The investors are bailing from the baloney speculations in wind and solar, there's nothing else green on the list to argue about and we can start letting the MARKET and SCIENCE discover the future again...

Glad you're covering our sorry asses... This is why you're still on "ignore"....

Guess he is unaware of the long, and growing list of failed green projects and businesses that his so called "doers" are foisting on us.

 

[PMZ]

Glimpse of Troll wisdom to get me thru the day...

That's exactly there are no doers paying any attention to the likes of you. The investors and engineers and politicians are doing what our future demands instead of participating in your circle jerk.

So while your Dear Leader of Central Planning is lowering the height of the oceans by providing $BILLIONS to Billionaires making trophy-scale Battery Buggies for Millionaires, the overall and power tool using set with the help of science and engineering are making an economic dynamo out of the bleak Dakotas by finding and creating energy, jobs and growth. IN SPITE of all the impediments thrown in their way..

And your group of serial science abusers are discovering that warming is NOT expected to be instantaneous and be constantly tracking of CO2 -- but that the earth actually STORES thermal energy.
((Duh, why did THAT take climatologists, 20 yrs to discover the diff between power and energy??))

So they are training WALRUSES to dive to the depths to discover the "lost warming".. That last part WAS NOT a joke. (OK, they are pinipeds, not walruses, but It's still funny.)

Yep -- we are safe.. The investors are bailing from the baloney speculations in wind and solar, there's nothing else green on the list to argue about and we can start letting the MARKET and SCIENCE discover the future again...

Glad you're covering our sorry asses... This is why you're still on "ignore"....

"And your group of serial science abusers are discovering that warming is NOT expected to be instantaneous and be constantly tracking of CO2 -- but that the earth actually STORES thermal energy. "

Glad to see that some learning has actually taken place here.

The thermodynamics of earth leaves behind a great deal of evidence that we call weather. That's what makes dumping our fossil fuel waste into the atmosphere so expensive.

That GHGs require AGW in proportion to the concentration in our atmosphere is a given. The process by which systems earth makes that adjustment is called weather. The time constant for completing the adjustment is unknown because creating a comprehensive very long term weather forcast is probably beyond current computer technology much less climatology. And, every day, we up the concentration.

Anybody who pays attention to news knows that we, the tax payers, are already paying high costs for damages to our civilization by AGW enhanced extreme weather.

They also know that we are making giant strides of progress in converting the sun's energy to usable power directly without going through the unsustainable process of burning ancient life material. And paying for the consequential extreme weather damages to civilization.

We are facing the largest project mankind has ever taken on. We created the urgency to do it, but have always recognized that the old technology, fossil fuels, was never sustainable. So we always knew that this reckoning was coming.

Now it's here.

 

[PMZ]

So far, he can't even recite the statement of the Second Law of Thermodynamics and say how it might apply to the greenhouse effect hypothesis. Most sixth graders could do that if asked.

"Admitting heat to be a form of energy, the second law asserts that it is impossible, by the unaided action of natural processes, to transform any part of the heat of a body into mechanical work, except by allowing heat to pass from that body into another at a lower temperature. Clausius, who first stated the principle of Carnot in a manner consistent with the true theory of heat, expresses this law as follows: -
It is impossible for a self-acting machine, unaided by any external agency, to convey heat from one body to another at a higher temperature."

"Thomson gives it a slightly different form: -"

"It is impossible, by means of inanimate material agency, to derive mechanical effect from any portion of matter by cooling it below the temperature of the coldest of the surrounding objects."

"And again, later on in The Theory of Heat (page 328), Maxwell has this to say:
One of the best established facts in thermodynamics is that it is impossible in a system enclosed in an envelope which permits neither change of volume nor passage of heat, and in which both the temperature and pressure are everywhere the same, to produce any inequality of temperature or of pressure without the expenditure of work.
A more modern statement of this classical second law may look more complicated, but means the same thing:
Processes in which the entropy of an isolated system would decrease do not occur, or, in every process taking place in an isolated system, the entropy of the system either increases or remains constant
That version of the 2nd law comes from the textbook An Introduction to Thermodynamics, the Kinetic Theory of Gases, and Statistical Mechanics (2nd edition), by Francis Weston Sears, Addison-Wesley, 1950, 1953, page 111 (Chapter 7, "the Second Law of Thermodynamics").
The phrase isolated system means that neither energy nor matter may enter or leave the system; it is an embodiment of the word "unaided" as used by Maxwell & Clausius. If the system is not isolated, then energy can get in, and so can "aid". Hence, isolation is required to uphold the restriction "unaided". The manner in which the "transition" is accomplished is irrelevant; all possible transitions are allowed."

"In the earlier paper On the Definition of Entropy, we already encouterd the equation that defines change in classical entropy, S = Q/T. The 2nd law contrains the change in entropy (S) so as to give us the fundamental equation for the 2nd law, in classical thermodynamics."

From The Second Law of Thermodynamics

So in spite of your appeal to complexity, the second law means that it is not possible for energy to move from a high entropy state to a lower entropy state. Now once again, how does that apply to the stated hypothesis of the greenhouse effect?

Nobody here is surprised that you are unable to grasp what everybody experiences every day. It requires some science that is, very apparently, way beyond your education and intellect. So be it.

Given that, your only alternative is to grasp the faith of the cavemen for commonplace occurances, like thunder for instance, that was beyond their science.

It's magic.

If you find that approach unsatisfactory, the alternative is education. Quite a bit given your starting point.

Your decision.

 

[PMZ]

Glimpse of Troll wisdom to get me thru the day...

That's exactly there are no doers paying any attention to the likes of you. The investors and engineers and politicians are doing what our future demands instead of participating in your circle jerk.

So while your Dear Leader of Central Planning is lowering the height of the oceans by providing $BILLIONS to Billionaires making trophy-scale Battery Buggies for Millionaires, the overall and power tool using set with the help of science and engineering are making an economic dynamo out of the bleak Dakotas by finding and creating energy, jobs and growth. IN SPITE of all the impediments thrown in their way..

And your group of serial science abusers are discovering that warming is NOT expected to be instantaneous and be constantly tracking of CO2 -- but that the earth actually STORES thermal energy.
((Duh, why did THAT take climatologists, 20 yrs to discover the diff between power and energy??))

So they are training WALRUSES to dive to the depths to discover the "lost warming".. That last part WAS NOT a joke. (OK, they are pinipeds, not walruses, but It's still funny.)

Yep -- we are safe.. The investors are bailing from the baloney speculations in wind and solar, there's nothing else green on the list to argue about and we can start letting the MARKET and SCIENCE discover the future again...

Glad you're covering our sorry asses... This is why you're still on "ignore"....

Guess he is unaware of the long, and growing list of failed green projects and businesses that his so called "doers" are foisting on us.

The learning curve is another common place reality that people who worship the past portray as the bogieman.

If one sits very still and refuses to act on knowledge, it can be avoided.

 

[PMZ]

Glimpse of Troll wisdom to get me thru the day...

That's exactly there are no doers paying any attention to the likes of you. The investors and engineers and politicians are doing what our future demands instead of participating in your circle jerk.

So while your Dear Leader of Central Planning is lowering the height of the oceans by providing $BILLIONS to Billionaires making trophy-scale Battery Buggies for Millionaires, the overall and power tool using set with the help of science and engineering are making an economic dynamo out of the bleak Dakotas by finding and creating energy, jobs and growth. IN SPITE of all the impediments thrown in their way..

And your group of serial science abusers are discovering that warming is NOT expected to be instantaneous and be constantly tracking of CO2 -- but that the earth actually STORES thermal energy.
((Duh, why did THAT take climatologists, 20 yrs to discover the diff between power and energy??))

So they are training WALRUSES to dive to the depths to discover the "lost warming".. That last part WAS NOT a joke. (OK, they are pinipeds, not walruses, but It's still funny.)

Yep -- we are safe.. The investors are bailing from the baloney speculations in wind and solar, there's nothing else green on the list to argue about and we can start letting the MARKET and SCIENCE discover the future again...

Glad you're covering our sorry asses... This is why you're still on "ignore"....

It's more accurate to say that we are carrying "(y)our sorry asses...".

Why? It's just the way of progress. The strong carry the weak.

 

[PMZ]

Glimpse of Troll wisdom to get me thru the day...

That's exactly there are no doers paying any attention to the likes of you. The investors and engineers and politicians are doing what our future demands instead of participating in your circle jerk.

So while your Dear Leader of Central Planning is lowering the height of the oceans by providing $BILLIONS to Billionaires making trophy-scale Battery Buggies for Millionaires, the overall and power tool using set with the help of science and engineering are making an economic dynamo out of the bleak Dakotas by finding and creating energy, jobs and growth. IN SPITE of all the impediments thrown in their way..

And your group of serial science abusers are discovering that warming is NOT expected to be instantaneous and be constantly tracking of CO2 -- but that the earth actually STORES thermal energy.
((Duh, why did THAT take climatologists, 20 yrs to discover the diff between power and energy??))

So they are training WALRUSES to dive to the depths to discover the "lost warming".. That last part WAS NOT a joke. (OK, they are pinipeds, not walruses, but It's still funny.)

Yep -- we are safe.. The investors are bailing from the baloney speculations in wind and solar, there's nothing else green on the list to argue about and we can start letting the MARKET and SCIENCE discover the future again...

Glad you're covering our sorry asses... This is why you're still on "ignore"....

Ah ha. A clue. The cult is so afraid of the "Dear Leader of Central Planning" that they want to avoid planning and progress altogether and just hide in the woods hunting and gathering.

Adequate for woodchucks perhaps but quite a bit short of humanity's capability and promise.

 

[westwall]

Your limitation is intellectual.

Sustainable means capable of being sustained. Therefore our global supply of multimillion year old plants that were prevented from rotting by temporary conditions is not sustainable. Sun and wind and water energy is.

OK, Mr. troll. Lay out what a sustainable society looks like. Present what and how the food is created and transported. The same for energy, water and hosing. We'll ignore the other things for now. Just start with these.

A sustainable society is one that survives for a long time numbnuts.

That doesn't answer the question nimrod. DEFINE in practical terms what it MEANS to YOU. The one constant that holds amongst all of you halfwits is you are long on rhetoric but when you are asked a specific question or are asked to present a measurable metric you flee and hide.

I'm not letting you do that this time. Tell us what a "sustainable society" means to YOU and how life looks like in your society. C'mon junior, now is your chance to shine!