The global warming thread. Is it for real?

[Wyld Kard]

Global warming is a global scam, perpetrated by the so-called global elite which is then packaged and delivered by their poster boy Al Gore, and sold to all the gullible people around the world.

 

[Trakar]

I'm seeing some record fast backpedaling on the "wind farms decimate raptors!" stupidity. Same old story. Denialists spout hysterical crap, get called on it, and so spout more crap as a smokescreen to cover their retreat.

Oh, the cat/bird studies are some major junk science, making wild claims about each cat killing hundreds of birds each year. They list tallies of _billions_ of birds killed each year, something like about half the total bird population of North America. Yes, supposedly around half of the birds in the USA are eaten by cats each year. It's just crazy.

See, birds fly. That makes them really hard for a cat to catch. Oh, the cats try, but rarely succeed, and usually end up having to eat grasshoppers and cicadas. My cat tries her best to get those birds, and gets about 2 a year. And those are worthless invasive house sparrows, the killing of which is a good thing.

Perhaps your anecdotal experience merely reflects a cat which is an incompetent killer, or much better at concealing its kills than you suspect; regardless, personal dislike or incredulity is not an appropriate measure of scientific validity and certainly insufficient to assess "junk" from "meritorious" science:

http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/live/ec1781/build/ec1781.pdf

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n1/full/ncomms2380.html

 

[flacaltenn]

I'm seeing some record fast backpedaling on the "wind farms decimate raptors!" stupidity. Same old story. Denialists spout hysterical crap, get called on it, and so spout more crap as a smokescreen to cover their retreat.

Oh, the cat/bird studies are some major junk science, making wild claims about each cat killing hundreds of birds each year. They list tallies of _billions_ of birds killed each year, something like about half the total bird population of North America. Yes, supposedly around half of the birds in the USA are eaten by cats each year. It's just crazy.

See, birds fly. That makes them really hard for a cat to catch. Oh, the cats try, but rarely succeed, and usually end up having to eat grasshoppers and cicadas. My cat tries her best to get those birds, and gets about 2 a year. And those are worthless invasive house sparrows, the killing of which is a good thing.

Scratch an enviro-nut -- find a feral cat justifying random sport killing of "worthless" birds.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/...amont_pass/pdfs/2-17-05-press-release-rrw.pdf


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE February 17, 2005
Oakland, CA – Judge Ronald Sabraw of the Alameda County Superior Court today ruled that the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) and its co-plaintiff Peter Galvin can go forward with their lawsuit against wind power companies responsible for killing tens of thousands of eagles, hawks, falcons, owls and other protected birds with wind power turbines in the Altamont Pass Wind Resource Area (Altamont) in the San Francisco Bay Area of California.

Judge Sabraw ruled that, although the enactment of Proposition 64 in November 2004 applied retroactively to bar CBD and Mr. Galvin from bringing suit on behalf of the general public, CBD and Mr. Galvin could continue to pursue their claims against the wind power companies for destroying wildlife because they, like all other Californians, have a property interest in the wildlife the wind power companies are destroying. The Judge also invited Attorney General Bill Lockyer or the Alameda County District Attorney to join the
lawsuit to pursue these claims on behalf of the general public as well.

The lawsuit was filed in state court on November 1, 2004, seeking remedies for the killing of tens of thousands of raptors in flagrant criminal violation of state and federal wildlife protection laws. Wind turbines at Altamont have killed an estimated 880 to 1,330 golden eagles, hawks, owls and other protected raptors each year for the past 20 years, in violation of numerous California Fish and Game Code provisions as well as the federal Migratory Bird Treaty Act and the Bald Eagle and Golden Eagle Protection Act.

10s of thousands --- ONE WIND FARM.. In violation of 4 or 6 laws..

But it's a CLEAN kill... Hypocrits....

 

[CultureCitizen]

Global warming is a global scam, perpetrated by the so-called global elite which is then packaged and delivered by their poster boy Al Gore, and sold to all the gullible people around the world.

Any link to support your claim? so far, at least by the evidence provided in this thread global warming seems very real.

That such global waring is produced by man or that it can be controlled by changing our way of producing energy is still VERY debatable. The warming itself ... not really. But then again , feel free to post your links . I'm sure they will be very interesting.

 

[flacaltenn]

Global warming is a global scam, perpetrated by the so-called global elite which is then packaged and delivered by their poster boy Al Gore, and sold to all the gullible people around the world.

Any link to support your claim? so far, at least by the evidence provided in this thread global warming seems very real.

That such global waring is produced by man or that it can be controlled by changing our way of producing energy is still VERY debatable. The warming itself ... not really. But then again , feel free to post your links . I'm sure they will be very interesting.

If it WAS real AND caused by CO2 -- we know how to fix it without bringing the civilized societies to their knees. Don't have to write $Bill checks to pacific islands, don't HAVE to lie and scare folks like Al Gore does.

About 100 nuclear plants (60 just to replace the old ones) would be a great start for doing OUR part.

Which is this country more frightened of ?? the "problem"? Or that viable solution ?

You could ALSO close the coal plants, tear down the dams and free the salmon, give a finger to the Middle East when we have to capacity to power our transport sector on nuclear made hydrogen, AND (according to you) save the planet from a fatal "fever".

Instead -- we're dicking around with sketchy energy supplements that either take the night and most of the rainy season off or are only available on Tues, Thurs and Friday.

THAT'S what makes it APPEAR to be a scam.. Because instead of engineering our way out of it. The Church of Global Warming is planning Global Redistribution, punishing taxation, reduction in consumption, and all those other "sustainable" items on the agenda.

 

[Saigon]

Flac -

And yet you still have not answered my question about the environmental problems with traditional forms of energy production.

It is one thing to rightly point out the issues with hydro or tidal - another to keep dodging the much more severe problems with coal or even nuclear.

You have been badgering me and trolling me incessantly here.. I went LAST on this arc..

http://www.usmessageboard.com/7413787-post118.html

I'm still not seeing an answer there.

I'm always baffled by posters who will repeat ad nauseum "I've already answered that" when in a split second they could either provide the post # or simply C&P their own post.

When you are prepared to look at the environmental impact of all energy forms equaly and objectively, this may be a more interesting discussion.

 

[Trakar]

I'm seeing some record fast backpedaling on the "wind farms decimate raptors!" stupidity. Same old story. Denialists spout hysterical crap, get called on it, and so spout more crap as a smokescreen to cover their retreat.

Oh, the cat/bird studies are some major junk science, making wild claims about each cat killing hundreds of birds each year. They list tallies of _billions_ of birds killed each year, something like about half the total bird population of North America. Yes, supposedly around half of the birds in the USA are eaten by cats each year. It's just crazy.

See, birds fly. That makes them really hard for a cat to catch. Oh, the cats try, but rarely succeed, and usually end up having to eat grasshoppers and cicadas. My cat tries her best to get those birds, and gets about 2 a year. And those are worthless invasive house sparrows, the killing of which is a good thing.

Perhaps you anecdotal experience merely reflects a cat which is an incompetent killer, or much better at concealing its kills than you suspect; regardless, personal dislike or incredulity is not an appropriate measure of scientific validity and certainly insufficient to assess "junk" from "meritorious" science:

http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/live/ec1781/build/ec1781.pdf

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n1/full/ncomms2380.html

BTW the "1.4–3.7 billion birds" mentioned in the second study actually amount to around 3% of the U.S. bird population. Which is reasonable for predation by an invasive predatory species with a population (domestic and feral) of around 100 million or so spread throughout the US.

 

[Gracie]

What are your point of views regarding global warming?
Is it real or there is no such thing as global warming?

My OPINION is we are experiencing a major problem with global warming but most are too afraid to admit it and want to keep their heads in the sand. If they don't acknowledge it, it might go away syndrome. Yeah yeah yeah...the earth has gone thru phases like this before. But "before" there were not billions of people ON the earth raping it.

Done. No use arguing over it. Only makes me stressed out, makes my visits online not very fun and why bother to talk to brick walls?

 

[flacaltenn]

Flac -

And yet you still have not answered my question about the environmental problems with traditional forms of energy production.

It is one thing to rightly point out the issues with hydro or tidal - another to keep dodging the much more severe problems with coal or even nuclear.

You have been badgering me and trolling me incessantly here.. I went LAST on this arc..

http://www.usmessageboard.com/7413787-post118.html

I'm still not seeing an answer there.

I'm always baffled by posters who will repeat ad nauseum "I've always answered that" when in a split second they could either provide the post # or simply C&P their own post.

When you are prepared to look at the environmental impact of all energy forms equaly and objectively, this may be a more interesting discussion.

U attack me one more time and we're done. You will be filtered out of my conciousness with a single click.

What part of -----

There is not a lot of back-up for the statement that tidal could power a whole state. Not without making 18 species of sea life nearly extinct, and being constantly in a state of maintenance, like ANYTHING that is placed on the sea bottom.

You've got 2 maybe 3 actually viable prototypes running in the world right now -- and I've YET TO SEE any MEASURED production charts from them..

--------- did you not feel able to address? Do you ever WORK on these threads?

Go get me a production chart for a tidal prototype that LOOKS like it could power an entire state without creating 10 or 12 extinct local species...

Last chance man.. I'm down to ZERO patience with you..

WORK DAMMIT -- and not just your MOUTH.....

 

[Saigon]

Flac -

Attack you? Where have I ever attacked you on this board?

All I have asked you to do is to address the environmental impacts of TRADITIONAL forms of energy production, as in non-renewables.

I have yet to see a response.

 

[Trakar]

I'm seeing some record fast backpedaling on the "wind farms decimate raptors!" stupidity. Same old story. Denialists spout hysterical crap, get called on it, and so spout more crap as a smokescreen to cover their retreat.

Oh, the cat/bird studies are some major junk science, making wild claims about each cat killing hundreds of birds each year. They list tallies of _billions_ of birds killed each year, something like about half the total bird population of North America. Yes, supposedly around half of the birds in the USA are eaten by cats each year. It's just crazy.

See, birds fly. That makes them really hard for a cat to catch. Oh, the cats try, but rarely succeed, and usually end up having to eat grasshoppers and cicadas. My cat tries her best to get those birds, and gets about 2 a year. And those are worthless invasive house sparrows, the killing of which is a good thing.

Scratch an enviro-nut -- find a feral cat justifying random sport killing of "worthless" birds.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/...amont_pass/pdfs/2-17-05-press-release-rrw.pdf


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE February 17, 2005
Oakland, CA – Judge Ronald Sabraw of the Alameda County Superior Court today ruled that the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) and its co-plaintiff Peter Galvin can go forward with their lawsuit against wind power companies responsible for killing tens of thousands of eagles, hawks, falcons, owls and other protected birds with wind power turbines in the Altamont Pass Wind Resource Area (Altamont) in the San Francisco Bay Area of California.

Judge Sabraw ruled that, although the enactment of Proposition 64 in November 2004 applied retroactively to bar CBD and Mr. Galvin from bringing suit on behalf of the general public, CBD and Mr. Galvin could continue to pursue their claims against the wind power companies for destroying wildlife because they, like all other Californians, have a property interest in the wildlife the wind power companies are destroying. The Judge also invited Attorney General Bill Lockyer or the Alameda County District Attorney to join the
lawsuit to pursue these claims on behalf of the general public as well.

The lawsuit was filed in state court on November 1, 2004, seeking remedies for the killing of tens of thousands of raptors in flagrant criminal violation of state and federal wildlife protection laws. Wind turbines at Altamont have killed an estimated 880 to 1,330 golden eagles, hawks, owls and other protected raptors each year for the past 20 years, in violation of numerous California Fish and Game Code provisions as well as the federal Migratory Bird Treaty Act and the Bald Eagle and Golden Eagle Protection Act.

10s of thousands --- ONE WIND FARM.. In violation of 4 or 6 laws..

But it's a CLEAN kill... Hypocrits....

Allegations and the filing of legal suits is one thing, but I really didn't understand why you merely posted a decade old ruling allowing a private lawsuit to go forward, instead of the supporting evidences upon which the filing was based or more compelling to your argument, the final ruling and legal findings of the lawsuit as it was settled. That curiosity was sort lived:

"The court concluded that CDB was attempting to challenge the authorization to operate wind turbines granted by the county without bringing an action against the county. Given the impact that a ruling on the merits could have on the ability of the county to accomplish its policy objectives, and the potential for the pronouncement of inconsistent standards and conditions for the operation of the turbines, the county unquestionably was a necessary party to the action.
Since the proper method of challenging the issuance of conditional use permits was by writ of administrative mandate, the time for filing of which had long passed, it was now too late for an action against the county to set aside the conditional use permits that already were issued. The dismissal of the action, therefore, also could be justified by the absence of a necessary and indispensable party.
The court noted in closing that the responsible public agencies had not ignored the effects of the wind turbines operating in Altamont Pass, and that they were seeking to mitigate the harm to birdlife by imposing conditions and restrictions on the operation of the turbines. Any challenge to the adequacy of the measures being taken had to be addressed in an appropriate manner to the agencies that were responsible for regulating those activities. Thus the trial court properly dismissed the action, although its holding in doing so was overly broad."

Center for Biological Diversity, Inc. v. FPL Group, Inc.

But then, I guess that information was, once again, counter-productive to the narrative and message you were attempting to promote,...seems to be a theme you have developed.

 

[CultureCitizen]

You have been badgering me and trolling me incessantly here.. I went LAST on this arc..

http://www.usmessageboard.com/7413787-post118.html

I'm still not seeing an answer there.

I'm always baffled by posters who will repeat ad nauseum "I've always answered that" when in a split second they could either provide the post # or simply C&P their own post.

When you are prepared to look at the environmental impact of all energy forms equaly and objectively, this may be a more interesting discussion.

U attack me one more time and we're done. You will be filtered out of my conciousness with a single click.

What part of -----

There is not a lot of back-up for the statement that tidal could power a whole state. Not without making 18 species of sea life nearly extinct, and being constantly in a state of maintenance, like ANYTHING that is placed on the sea bottom.

You've got 2 maybe 3 actually viable prototypes running in the world right now -- and I've YET TO SEE any MEASURED production charts from them..

--------- did you not feel able to address? Do you ever WORK on these threads?

Go get me a production chart for a tidal prototype that LOOKS like it could power an entire state without creating 10 or 12 extinct local species...

Last chance man.. I'm down to ZERO patience with you..

WORK DAMMIT -- and not just your MOUTH.....

I think it is not just the source of energy which matters but also how efficiently we use that energy. I waste very little energy at home : about 80 kwh per month. But the energy hog in my household is my car : I need 20 gallons of gasoline every month. I think my next car will be a hybrid which will help me cut that amount almost by half. If wikispeed's price goes down a 20% more in the next two years ( and there's a model with a ceiling), I am planning buying one , then the amount of gasoline I use will go down to 1/3 and I will only use 7 gallons of gasoline per month. So there's more than one way of going green.

http://www.wikispeed.com/wikispeed-team-blog/wikispeed-qna-with-le-temps

 

[Trakar]

I think it is not just the source of energy which matters but also how efficiently we use that energy. I waste very little energy at home : about 80 kwh per month. But the energy hog in my household is my car : I need 20 gallons of gasoline every month. I think my next car will be a hybrid which will help me cut that amount almost by half. If wikispeed's price goes down a 20% more in the next two years ( and there's a model with a ceiling), I am planning buying one , then the amount of gasoline I use will go down to 1/3 and I will only use 7 gallons of gasoline per month. So there's more than one way of going green.

WIKISPEED - WIKISPEED QnA with LE TEMPS

Very sound and well-reasoned comment (and actions).

 

[Trakar]

What are your point of views regarding global warming?
Is it real or there is no such thing as global warming?

My OPINION is we are experiencing a major problem with global warming but most are too afraid to admit it and want to keep their heads in the sand. If they don't acknowledge it, it might go away syndrome. Yeah yeah yeah...the earth has gone thru phases like this before. But "before" there were not billions of people ON the earth raping it.

Done. No use arguing over it. Only makes me stressed out, makes my visits online not very fun and why bother to talk to brick walls?

I can empathize with those feelings, my primary purpose in posting to boards like this isn't to try and convince the bricks of anything, it is to provide information and understanding to those board participants and passerbys who may not be aware of the nature of the mainstream science perspective on a lot of issues related to climate change and AGW.

 

[Saigon]

What are your point of views regarding global warming?
Is it real or there is no such thing as global warming?

My OPINION is we are experiencing a major problem with global warming but most are too afraid to admit it and want to keep their heads in the sand. If they don't acknowledge it, it might go away syndrome. Yeah yeah yeah...the earth has gone thru phases like this before. But "before" there were not billions of people ON the earth raping it.

Done. No use arguing over it. Only makes me stressed out, makes my visits online not very fun and why bother to talk to brick walls?

I couldn't agree more, and I would agree that there is limited value in debating this topic with people who often do not believe their own argumentation and posts (Does Westwall really believe there has never been a fracking accident, or that windmills kill more birds than oil ever has?), but at the same time - there is a lot of humour to be found in these threads.

Where else do we see people claim to know about physics than Stephen Hawking?!

 

[Old Rocks]

There are still a lot of people out there who are not aware of the problems developing from the warming. That do not realize how 'extreme' extreme weather can be. And all too many have only heard the message of the right wing nuts on the radio concerning the effects of GHGs.

 

[flacaltenn]

I think it is not just the source of energy which matters but also how efficiently we use that energy. I waste very little energy at home : about 80 kwh per month. But the energy hog in my household is my car : I need 20 gallons of gasoline every month. I think my next car will be a hybrid which will help me cut that amount almost by half. If wikispeed's price goes down a 20% more in the next two years ( and there's a model with a ceiling), I am planning buying one , then the amount of gasoline I use will go down to 1/3 and I will only use 7 gallons of gasoline per month. So there's more than one way of going green.

WIKISPEED - WIKISPEED QnA with LE TEMPS

Those are the kinds of market driven actions that will decide the outcome here. But for your economic votes to matter, they have to be INFORMED votes. Those informed economic votes drive the progress of the market directly to satifaction.. Uniformed votes?? We wander in the desert for 40 yrs living on Manna from Washington D.C.

Which is pretty descriptive of our energy policies over the past 20 years. We're circling in the desert, because there's this "sustainable" movement that flaunts a long list of flawed "alternatives" where NONE of them is a 24/7/365 source of environmentally sound electricity. And now there is "Big Solar" and "Big Wind" and $BILLS a year in subsidies and grants and tax breaks driving a markets that will not SUSTAIN without massive aid. And when Big Wind/Solar fall short --- The "LIST" is pulled out again to show how many false choices are still available..

And the costs to the ratepayers for funding both THESE and real RELIABLE back-ups or inefficient storage fixes will POISON future corrected uses of these technologies.. All because of hype and misrepresentation..

And that's why, as an environmentalist, I've got a motivation to speak out..

 

[Trakar]

I think it is not just the source of energy which matters but also how efficiently we use that energy. I waste very little energy at home : about 80 kwh per month. But the energy hog in my household is my car : I need 20 gallons of gasoline every month. I think my next car will be a hybrid which will help me cut that amount almost by half. If wikispeed's price goes down a 20% more in the next two years ( and there's a model with a ceiling), I am planning buying one , then the amount of gasoline I use will go down to 1/3 and I will only use 7 gallons of gasoline per month. So there's more than one way of going green.

WIKISPEED - WIKISPEED QnA with LE TEMPS

Those are the kinds of market driven actions that will decide the outcome here. But for your economic votes to matter, they have to be INFORMED votes. Those informed economic votes drive the progress of the market directly to satifaction.. Uniformed votes?? We wander in the desert for 40 yrs living on Manna from Washington D.C.

Which is pretty descriptive of our energy policies over the past 20 years. We're circling in the desert, because there's this "sustainable" movement that flaunts a long list of flawed "alternatives" where NONE of them is a 24/7/365 source of environmentally sound electricity. And now there is "Big Solar" and "Big Wind" and $BILLS a year in subsidies and grants and tax breaks driving a markets that will not SUSTAIN without massive aid. And when Big Wind/Solar fall short --- The "LIST" is pulled out again to show how many false choices are still available..

And the costs to the ratepayers for funding both THESE and real RELIABLE back-ups or inefficient storage fixes will POISON future corrected uses of these technologies.. All because of hype and misrepresentation..

And that's why, as an environmentalist, I've got a motivation to speak out..

These are your political/ideological beliefs to compellingly support. Attacking others and using pseudoscience argument do not amount to compelling support for anything you state above.

 

[SSDD]

My OPINION is we are experiencing a major problem with global warming but most are too afraid to admit it and want to keep their heads in the sand. If they don't acknowledge it, it might go away syndrome. Yeah yeah yeah...the earth has gone thru phases like this before. But "before" there were not billions of people ON the earth raping it.

Are experiencing? Name some major problem that we are experiencing that is the direct result of a fraction of a degree of warming over the past 100 years.

 

[PMZ]

Some people have been told, and do not choose to invest in research to know any differently, that we are entitled to live the life that we want, with no consequences. That God or Ma Nature or Providence, favors humans.

Of course that is wrong. The universe in no way accommodates us. The laws of physics give humans specifically, and life in general, no quarter. Everybody follows the laws that have been discovered by science or pays the consequences.

There are now enough of us to impact our world. Enough to matter.

We have now reached critical mass where we must consider our impact or those who follow us will pay the price.

Can we? Will we?

Some have already decided no. They will live their life and if there's a price to pay, someone following will.

Some have already decided that future generations are as deserving as we are. It is our obligation to consider our impact on them.

Which are you?