emilynghiem
Constitutionalist / Universalist
Dear theword and Avatar:
I think a better distinction could be made between
A. the SPIRIT of Truth/Justice/Knowledge in the world (that BOTH believers seek to establish by scriptural law AND the "secular gentiles/nontheists" seek to understand using science, reason and NATURAL laws.)
B. vs. the LETTER of the law, the Jews/Christians and believers who commit to Scriptures under one fold, while secular gentiles/humanists/nontheists in another fold follow natural laws (including Constitutional laws that call for equal inclusion of diverse religious freedom), and may continue to speak/think in secular terms of application to the real world and relationships between people, especially given our different systems.
It's not so much rejecting the truth because of religion, but rejecting the EXCLUSIVE CONDITIONS ON RELIGIOUS TERMS that leave out the rest of humanity and thus defeat the meaning of God's truth, love and laws as being "universal" and including "all humanity."
Because I consider myself immersed in both folds equally, I have sympathy with both approaches, and hate to see conflict between them where so many times this is neither necessary nor helpful.
Just because the meaning/message is universal does not mean the terms/words used are universal to all people and should be used as judgment; and just because the terms/words are relative to some people but not others, does NOT mean the message ISN'T universal.
Ideally, the Jews/believers under scriptural authority and the Gentiles governed by natural laws are supposed to be one in Christ, where there is not conflict nor competition between them. That does not mean one will convert to the other, but both remain under their own systems and reach understanding and peace, the spirit of Jesus/Justice fulfills both paths.
TheWord and Avatar: when I read msgs like yours, this disturbs me to see you make "conditions" out of the religious terms, causing rejection and then misjudging people who reject this instead of hearing what the meaning is and agreeing with those concepts.
Could we try explaining what is the process of justice to reach truth, which Jesus as the way to God "represents" and "symbolizes." Instead of harping on the religious way of preaching that Jesus is God. Why not explain what the process is, and show how everyone is following this process of reconciling our views of Justice in the world to establish Truth?
^ All this "preaching" does nothing for me and others who were brought up thinking in secular terms of understanding the spiritual process and meaning WITHOUT religious symbology attached as a "condition." ^
I did not understand God, Jesus or the Bible until I understood the human process of reconciling relationships and overcome conflicts. Then I understood how "forgiveness" allowed reconciliation and healing of personal relations between people; and then "collectively" this process of healing and establishing agreement in truth set "all humanity free" and was the equivalent of bringing world peace through all the individual changes and reformed perceptions and policies that follow AFTER people are healed of past issues.
So this healing/reconciliation process is what Jesus Christ represents in the Bible.
We are all participating in it, including people here like Sunni who comes in from an Islamic perspective, or many nontheists here who understand the laws or forces in life from a scientific or natural world perspective. Where we reach agreement in truth, that is where we are joined by Christ or by conscience, so agreeing point by point between us locally means multiplying this same process globally to influence others to do the same. All humanity is going through this same process, cumulatively over all time, where we are all reconciling in Christ Jesus, or in the spirit of Justice to establish universal truth among us.
instead of arguing about Jesus in the Bible as a symbolic historic figure,
I find it more revealing to ask people what do you believe about Justice or Karma?
Is the cycle of past injustice/abuse/war breaking or will it continue forever?
Those who have faith that the good in humanity trumps and triumphs over the bad,
and will eventually prevail, that is like faith in justice or what Jesus represents.
some people have varying degrees of faith, but most people DO have a sense of Justice and they either feel betrayed or fearful about this Justice being abused or wronged,
or they feel empowered to be part of the process to bring about Justice in peaceful ways.
So this tells me more about people to know what do they believe about Justice, what is their relationship or role in the process, and how do they go about dealing with conflicting people or views. Are they forgiving and seek resolution in truth? Do they fear and impose on others? This tells me about their spirit, if they are more motivated by love of truth and faith that wisdom and true justice prevails; or if they are motivated by fear and rejection.
I pray that more of us here will forgive and receive one another in the spirit of truth, so that we bring the best knowledge and wisdom from everyone to share. I believe that is the path that will lead us to agreement on God's truth, regardless what religion(s) we believe or don't. Each person may have their own ways of expressing their understanding, and in the end where we agree will map out the points and path from local to global realization.
Thank you for sharing and I hope as we reach understanding, more people will likewise!
Because of the unique mix of diverse views here, whatever we can bring together is like a microcosm of the world; if we can make peace amongst ourselves, so can the world.
I believe God has a purpose for this, and why certain people are called to interact here.
Do you believe that God has equal purpose for Gentiles and why so many people think in secular terms? Wouldn't God also have plans for using natural laws to unite people as he uses Scriptural laws for correction and unity to the church body in Christ? Why not also with the Gentiles under natural laws? Aren't laws of nature created for equal purposes?
I think a better distinction could be made between
A. the SPIRIT of Truth/Justice/Knowledge in the world (that BOTH believers seek to establish by scriptural law AND the "secular gentiles/nontheists" seek to understand using science, reason and NATURAL laws.)
B. vs. the LETTER of the law, the Jews/Christians and believers who commit to Scriptures under one fold, while secular gentiles/humanists/nontheists in another fold follow natural laws (including Constitutional laws that call for equal inclusion of diverse religious freedom), and may continue to speak/think in secular terms of application to the real world and relationships between people, especially given our different systems.
It's not so much rejecting the truth because of religion, but rejecting the EXCLUSIVE CONDITIONS ON RELIGIOUS TERMS that leave out the rest of humanity and thus defeat the meaning of God's truth, love and laws as being "universal" and including "all humanity."
Because I consider myself immersed in both folds equally, I have sympathy with both approaches, and hate to see conflict between them where so many times this is neither necessary nor helpful.
Just because the meaning/message is universal does not mean the terms/words used are universal to all people and should be used as judgment; and just because the terms/words are relative to some people but not others, does NOT mean the message ISN'T universal.
Ideally, the Jews/believers under scriptural authority and the Gentiles governed by natural laws are supposed to be one in Christ, where there is not conflict nor competition between them. That does not mean one will convert to the other, but both remain under their own systems and reach understanding and peace, the spirit of Jesus/Justice fulfills both paths.
TheWord and Avatar: when I read msgs like yours, this disturbs me to see you make "conditions" out of the religious terms, causing rejection and then misjudging people who reject this instead of hearing what the meaning is and agreeing with those concepts.
Could we try explaining what is the process of justice to reach truth, which Jesus as the way to God "represents" and "symbolizes." Instead of harping on the religious way of preaching that Jesus is God. Why not explain what the process is, and show how everyone is following this process of reconciling our views of Justice in the world to establish Truth?
Sounds to me as though you are on the right path for yourself. Glad that you escaped from the wreckage too.
Derideo, after getting to know Uhkilleez a little better and talking to him I am amazed at his spirituality and his humility and his graciousness - even apologising to people here when I do not believe he needed to do it. But his humility is quite beautiful and I am impressed by his ability to be so honest and real because it is something I rarely see in many people who talk about "God".. I like Uhkilleez very much and believe he has some amazing insight on many things. I look forward to reading his posts in the future. - Jeri
It's hard to challenge Me, your Creator, with your false gods, isn't it Jeremiah?
Jeremiah 10
10: But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation.
11: Thus shall you say to them: "The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens."
12: It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.
13: When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightnings for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
14: Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; for his images are false, and there is no breath in them.
15: They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish.
16: Not like these is he who is the portion of Jacob, for he is the one who formed all things, and Israel is the tribe of his inheritance; the LORD of hosts is his name.
Acts 17: 24-31
24: The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man,
25: nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything.
26: And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation,
27: that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us,
28: for ..In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, ..For we are indeed his offspring.'
29: Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man.
You either know Me or you don't. Can you listen to Me in the testimonies of my last saint?
1 John 4:
6: We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
^ All this "preaching" does nothing for me and others who were brought up thinking in secular terms of understanding the spiritual process and meaning WITHOUT religious symbology attached as a "condition." ^
I did not understand God, Jesus or the Bible until I understood the human process of reconciling relationships and overcome conflicts. Then I understood how "forgiveness" allowed reconciliation and healing of personal relations between people; and then "collectively" this process of healing and establishing agreement in truth set "all humanity free" and was the equivalent of bringing world peace through all the individual changes and reformed perceptions and policies that follow AFTER people are healed of past issues.
So this healing/reconciliation process is what Jesus Christ represents in the Bible.
We are all participating in it, including people here like Sunni who comes in from an Islamic perspective, or many nontheists here who understand the laws or forces in life from a scientific or natural world perspective. Where we reach agreement in truth, that is where we are joined by Christ or by conscience, so agreeing point by point between us locally means multiplying this same process globally to influence others to do the same. All humanity is going through this same process, cumulatively over all time, where we are all reconciling in Christ Jesus, or in the spirit of Justice to establish universal truth among us.
instead of arguing about Jesus in the Bible as a symbolic historic figure,
I find it more revealing to ask people what do you believe about Justice or Karma?
Is the cycle of past injustice/abuse/war breaking or will it continue forever?
Those who have faith that the good in humanity trumps and triumphs over the bad,
and will eventually prevail, that is like faith in justice or what Jesus represents.
some people have varying degrees of faith, but most people DO have a sense of Justice and they either feel betrayed or fearful about this Justice being abused or wronged,
or they feel empowered to be part of the process to bring about Justice in peaceful ways.
So this tells me more about people to know what do they believe about Justice, what is their relationship or role in the process, and how do they go about dealing with conflicting people or views. Are they forgiving and seek resolution in truth? Do they fear and impose on others? This tells me about their spirit, if they are more motivated by love of truth and faith that wisdom and true justice prevails; or if they are motivated by fear and rejection.
I pray that more of us here will forgive and receive one another in the spirit of truth, so that we bring the best knowledge and wisdom from everyone to share. I believe that is the path that will lead us to agreement on God's truth, regardless what religion(s) we believe or don't. Each person may have their own ways of expressing their understanding, and in the end where we agree will map out the points and path from local to global realization.
Thank you for sharing and I hope as we reach understanding, more people will likewise!
Because of the unique mix of diverse views here, whatever we can bring together is like a microcosm of the world; if we can make peace amongst ourselves, so can the world.
I believe God has a purpose for this, and why certain people are called to interact here.
Do you believe that God has equal purpose for Gentiles and why so many people think in secular terms? Wouldn't God also have plans for using natural laws to unite people as he uses Scriptural laws for correction and unity to the church body in Christ? Why not also with the Gentiles under natural laws? Aren't laws of nature created for equal purposes?
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