The Homosexual Dilemma

[bodecea]

It depends on who you talk to. There are many who will argue that the only basis of morality is god. And if you use your reason, you're a relativist who is evil and believes in nothing. And that their faith is objective truth, as it comes directly from god. I'm not joking or inaccurately paraphrasing here. I can show you virtually exact quotes that say as much.

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My observation is that for ever person who deals in arbitrary moral absolutes on the right, there is, in fact, a practitioner of moral relativism on the left. Just looking at the large number of leftists who defend Islamism, rationalize acts of terror, or defend grossly misogynistic practices as long as they arise in any part of the world other than what we consider our own, I would say that there are plenty of people who do embody these charges. Just as the right can have a tendency to argue from a position of moral absolutes, the left can get so caught up in trying to distance themselves from morality that they take on positions that are nearly nihilistic. Instead of articulating a superior morality that IS based upon reason, far too many avoid the very notion altogether.

Instead of arguing from the position "does this action cause harm?", "Is it oppressive?" or "does it involve one person denying the rights of another", far too many on BOTH sides of an issue merely respond in terms of "what am I expected to say?", "what do all those who share my chosen ideology say?" or "what is the politically correct response?".

Oh? where are you looking?

 

[Skylar]

So if I don't serve gays and ignore whatever government does to force me to, then they won't come with guns? Seriously? You are an infant. You're the one who has to grow up.

Nope. The government will fine you. As you've violated the civil law and are subject to financial penalties. And since the States have exclusive jurisdiction over intra state commerce, they have every authority to establish minimum standards of conduct when doing business. Such as....treating your customers fairly and equally.

And I don't go to court and I don't pay the fine, now what?

Then they'll be collected as levies and liens. Bank accounts will be ceased. Wages garnished. Titles to property forfeit. Like any tax.

As you well know.

 

[Skylar]

Again with the socialism obsession. You say "rights" aren't commodities. You have negative rights, the right to be left alone to live your own life. The positive rights you assert, the right to force someone to do business with you is an entirely socialist construct and yes, it's completely morally and ethically wrong.

These are a product of the State's power to regulate intra-state commerce. A power you recognize. And within that authority its perfectly reasonable to set minimum standards of business conduct, where customers are treated fairly and equally.

You're confusing powers with rights. They aren't the same thing.

As for legally, yes, in our system the States do have that power though. The Federal government does not by the 10th amendment.

And the bakers being subject to violation of public accommodation laws because they refuse to serve gays are being held to are being held to State law.

Rendering the standard of conduct required by those doing business legal even by your standard. And as its reasonable to require that anyone doing business with the public treat the public fairly and equally, ethical as well.

Rights on the other hand are freedoms. And they are not commodities. They are not for sale. They are not traded. Nor does anyone have the right to vote them away. Rendering your claim that gay rights should be decided by the market a profound misunderstanding of the nature of rights.

 

[Skylar]

It depends on who you talk to. There are many who will argue that the only basis of morality is god. And if you use your reason, you're a relativist who is evil and believes in nothing. And that their faith is objective truth, as it comes directly from god. I'm not joking or inaccurately paraphrasing here. I can show you virtually exact quotes that say as much.

.

My observation is that for ever person who deals in arbitrary moral absolutes on the right, there is, in fact, a practitioner of moral relativism on the left.

I don't know about a one for one, but the practice is pretty common on both sides. Labelling a series of subjective beliefs 'Social Justice' doesn't magically make it any more absolute then insisting 'God did it!'. But in my experience those on the left are far more prone to examine, weigh and question their moral beliefs than those on the right. As the Left's basis of morality is more diverse, and consequently more complex. While the right's conception of morality is pretty singular, and thus simpler.

And you have to think harder about more complex, nuanced issues than you do simple, monopolar ideas.

These being broad generalizations of course. There are still sheeple among the left and thinkers among the right. But I'm speaking in terms of trends within ideological groups.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

The company that makes twinkies is out of business. Good riddance.

no way.....

Hostess is gone....happened a couple of years ago.

You understand the products of Hostess are being sold in your markets . . . today?

You mean other companies with similar products? Yeah, I knew that.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Those who are attracted to children can't make a different choice either. Compulsive hoarding isn't a choice. No compulsive disorder leaves the sufferer with a choice.

There is a choice in acting. For me, as a gay woman, the only choice is in acting upon my natural or god given inclinations. As long as I am acting upon those natural inclinations with another consenting adult, whose fucking business is it and why should I be denied the rights, benefits and privileges of civil marriage because my life partner of choice happens to be the same gender I am?

Notice how they no longer say, "What business is it of yours what we do in our own bedroom. This is because they know they've taken in out of the bedroom and shoved it in our faces. They hilariously push their lifestyle into the public while at the same time in this post saying it's none of our business. Just another daffy quirk of the faggoty Left.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

I could choose to be a criminal. Does that make me one?

I don't find men sexually attractive either because I choose not to.

So with a mere choice you could find a man's hairy ass as sexually attractive as a woman's shapely backside?

Then Sy's right. You're probably bi already. For most of us, its not a choice. Its just an attribute.

If its not a choice, then how come some are choosing it...or not:

Some Gays Can Go Straight Study Says - ABC News

Of course, gay groups are fighting this study, because if homosexuality was a choice, there can be no discrimination.

Since I personally know gays that have went straight, I have to ask why the appeal of a "big hairy ass" left them and was replaced by a vagina.

Mark

You really should have researched further...

Psychiatry Giant Sorry for Backing Gay 'Cure'

You should really stop sucking dicks. It's not normal.

You're right, it's not normal for me since I'm a lesbian and only lick pussy. I've never sucked a dick in my life nor do I ever intend to.

Neither do I. Nor do I ask my wife to do that with the mouth she kisses our kids with. I consider oral sex to be an abomination so normalized nobody ever considers how wrong and unnatural it is anymore.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Anyone think posting "link" is proves anything? Get a life. The proof is experience. Living a full life and having wide range of experiences. Gays are nice folks, in general. But I don't understand this push for rights for them, I really don't. Tell me why? This is about a general consensus, there isn't any right or wrong. I just don't understand this rationalizing irrational sexual behavior. They are never gonna have children, why this PUSH for marriage equality? Why? I just am not buying it. I don't understand it.

Suffice to say, there are some very decent gays who aren't pushy assholes. I know, two of them are dear friends of mine. It's a tragedy that the faggots have become the face of gay people, but that's how life is.

Yeah- I have known racists who claim that there are some very decent negroes too- the ones that aren't uppity like the n*ggers.

They always have a story of dear friends who were colored, the shoe shine man....the guy who pumped their gas- the ones who 'knew their place'.

Bigots always have rationalizations like that.

Do you know that race and lifestyle choice are two different things? Yes you can be judged by how you CHOOSE to live and that doesn't make me a bigot. 90% of blacks oppose homosexuality and resent the hell out of having your fake "cause" lumped in with their genuine plight.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Government remains a necessary component of society, and that Kaz does not like it means. . . nothing to the universe.

Kaz's world would very likely revert to the mad men like Where R My Keys taking over and killing all homosexuals.

Yes, moron, I'm anarchist. Got it.

Let's hope not. Your philosophic content does not prevent the opportunity for local elites taking over and punishing those they don't like.

 

[JakeStarkey]

There are some loonies loose in this thread: philosophically, economically, religiously.

The more I read protectionist, kaz, where r my keys, bripat, I am so grateful for our Constitution.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

There are some loonies loose in this thread: philosophically, economically, religiously.

The more I read protectionist, kaz, where r my keys, bripat, I am so grateful for our Constitution.

Yes, a wonderful document you can find "rights" in to the limits of your imagination. Right now I'm trying to find me a "right" to your home, bank accounts, and possessions. I'm sure I'll find it somewhere.

 

[JakeStarkey]

There are some loonies loose in this thread: philosophically, economically, religiously.

The more I read protectionist, kaz, where r my keys, bripat, I am so grateful for our Constitution.

Yes, a wonderful document you can find "rights" in to the limits of your imagination. Right now I'm trying to find me a "right" to your home, bank accounts, and possessions. I'm sure I'll find it somewhere.

Look all you want. And in the meantime you will follow the law or pay the consequences if caught.

 

[80zephyr]

God these assholes are dumb. One thinks that if walks into his daughter's bedroom and finds her on her knees stripped to her panties, her boyfriend standing over her with his jeans and tighty whiteys at his ankles, and his cock in her mouth that he would react by saying, Oh good, I was worried that you two might be having sex but I can see it's just foreplay so have fun kids. Morons here, total fucking morons.

Hey House, I don't make these definitions up. Society and nature does. It appears it is my job to educate those that don't know any better.

You "definition" is that only of horny teenage girls who are "technical virgins". The rest of us know that a cock in your ass or your mouth means you are having sex. We, unlike you, have common fucking sense, literally.

Well, your "common sense" is not sex. Sorry if that upsets you.

It doesn't upset me at all, because you're a fucking idiot who doesn't understand sex, gender, or sexual orientation any more than you understand that a post on the Internet isn't a letter to your fucking mommy, so you don't have to write your name at the end of it you fucking infant.

I don't understand? Sorry House, I don't create the definition to these words. The dictionary does. Why don't you crack one open once in a while?

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

Homosexuality is a...not a human right. How is Homosexuality deferent from any other sexual malfunction... It doesn't need protection under the constitution any more than does Female dryness, Erectile dysfunction or another sexual issue. Homosexuality is a made up cause with phony rights. Not buying it.

Your posts and the posts of those who agree with you are proof gay Americans are in need of Constitutional protections.

Indeed, Constitutional protections apply not only to race, gender, or religion but also to the right of individuals to make life choices absent unwarranted interference by the state:

“It suffices for us to acknowledge that adults may choose to enter upon this relationship in the confines of their homes and their own private lives and still retain their dignity as free persons. When sexuality finds overt expression in intimate conduct with another person, the conduct can be but one element in a personal bond that is more enduring. The liberty protected by the Constitution allows homosexual persons the right to make this choice.”

LAWRENCE V. TEXAS

Using that "logic" people should be able to do anything they want. Sorry, life doesn't work that way.

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

Doesn't matter what the anti-marriage equality crowd, believe, think, or pray for. Their confirmation bias and associated group cognitive dissonance will not stave off the embedding of marriage equality nationally and locally in a short time, and it will not stave off their children from chiding them, "Quit being goobers. If you are right about it, God will take care of it, because you have shown you can't."

My children applaude my stance that faggots are abnormal.

F*ggots, C*nts, N*ggers, K*kes.....

Bigots use these words for the same purpose.

Lol. If you don't like derogatory terms, why do you use them yourself? Let me guess? Your "moral authority".

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

Convince me why gays NEED marriage equality. Anyone? You do that, I buy you a cup of coffee.

I have met racists that I could not convince why African Americans deserve equal treatment either.

Some people are impervious to any argument that people deserve equal treatment.

Not the same thing. Even the blacks get pissed when the comparison is made. Apples and oranges.

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

But the experts don't agree with the far right on this Board.

Amazing. The weirds start taking same sex attraction and these voyeurs start gabbling excitingly about bestiality, group sex, and other behavior that fascinates them. No connection at all but they do get excited.

Bullshit. The APA is discussing classifying pedophilia in the same way they do homosexuality. If you all were truthful, you would understand that any sexual proclivity can(and should be if applied fairly) be classified exactly as homosexuality is. One sexual deviancy is really no different than another.

Mark

So you think anything other than male female penis in vagina is sexual deviancy- and that they are all the same as pedophilia?

Foreplay and masturbation are integral parts of sex. It is what makes it "fun", and that leads to pro creation.

So, let me turn your question around. Is there anything you consider a deviancy?

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

Anyone here that that can prove that homosexuals NEED to get married, I will buy you a GOOD cup coffee, you name it. Really.

As a man who has been married to my wife for over 20 years- I can say that no one can prove to me that heterosexuals need to get married.

But we deserve to be able to have that choice- just like a homosexual couple does.

That's where you are wrong. Nature devised the "marriage" plan by forcing a male and a female to interact to reproduce.

Nature "understands" that two people are needed to raise a human child.

Now, you can deny nature if you want to, but it won't change anything.

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

I don't get that from men either. That's why I chose women.

Oh I certainly chose to have sex with women- I chose to marry a woman- but I never, ever chose to be attracted to women.

IF you can choose to be attracted to women- then you should be able to chose to be attracted to men.

If you find the idea of a stubbly male face kissing your lips repugnant- like I do- then your attraction is not a choice.

I choose not to be attracted to men.

I find a lot of things repugnant. Does that mean it isn't a choice on those either?

Then you are probably bisexual.

As a heterosexual I can say with great certainty- I do not find men sexually attractive- and cannot chose to find them sexually attractive.

I like Jennifer Anniston and Holly Hunter and Jessica Alba- not Brad Pitt or George Clooney.

If you think you could chose to be turned on by a photo of Clooney in a bathing suit- then you are probably bisexual.

I could choose to be a criminal. Does that make me one?

I don't find men sexually attractive either because I choose not to.

You can't choose your attraction, only whether to act on them or not. If you are not attracted to men, you can't make yourself attracted to men, trust me on this. (It's why reparative "therapy" has such a high failure rate)

It would be interesting to know what other psychiatric problems have a "high failure rate" and if we simply gave up because of it.

Did you ever stop to think that this "high failure rate" is because we haven't been been trying reparative therapy that long?

I mean fuck, we have been trying to cure cancer, diabetes, and heart disease forever.

Maybe you think we should stop trying?

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

1. It is about science and how different conlcusions can come from the same research.

People Are Not Born Gay Affirms Royal College of Psychiatrists

Except that's not what happened. What happened was an anti gay group misinterpreted the study.

UK ‘gay cure’ group red-faced as psychiatrists point out they are wrong

Speaking to Gay Star News, a Royal College of Psychiatrists spokeswoman said it was a clear ‘misinterpretation’ of their actual statement.

‘Homosexuality is not a psychiatric disorder,’ it reads. ‘The College believes strongly in evidence-based treatment. There is no sound scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed.

‘The College would not support a therapy for converting people from homosexuality any more than we would do so from heterosexuality.

‘Psychiatrists should be committed to reducing inequalities, not supporting practices that are explicitly based on pathologizing homosexuality. As such, the College remains in favor of legislative efforts to ban such conversion therapies.’
​

2. Gay West New York cop claims in lawsuit he was harassed intimidated by police director NJ.com

There was a lot more than just "saying something" in that case. Also, you can't "say anything" at work, you know that right? Your "free speech" goes only as far as your employer allows.

Tebow's action of praying got media attention. However, had he not scored a toughdown, etc. there would have been no attention because he wouldn't have Tebowed. For Sam, the attention came before ever stepping foot on an NFL field. Tebow also had high school accomplishments. You don't start at Florida and win the Heisman if you don't.

You can't pretend Michael Sam didn't have accomplishments prior to coming out. He was SEC defensive player of the year and I think would be on a roster right now if he hadn't come out as gay.

Do you think role models are important? You obviously see Tebow as a role model for Christians and have no problem with that. Why can't Michael Sam be a role model for gay athletes? You may not realize it, but it is important for the gay High School football player in Iowa to see that there are others like him and it's okay to be athletic and gay.

5. Define equal. It doens't mean you get to do exactly the same things I do or vice versa.

Just ask them about polygamy or a sibling marriage. They are quicker to say no to it coming up with why equality should be denied than they are about bending over and taking one in the ass for the homos.

Polygamy and incest are both illegal so bringing them up is what is referred to in polite circles as a "slippery slope fallacy". They are completely unrelated to gays having equal access to civil marriage, and would either have a valid argument for legalization or they would not regardless of gays civilly marrying.

Quite a few countries have been marrying the gays for a while now. Even more countries perform legal polygamist marriages. None do both. There is no slippery slope.

There is a slippery slope. It started with the leftists instituting welfare, easy divorce, and single motherhood to destroy families.

Gay marriage is simply the latest step in that direction.

Mark