The liberal mythology of healthcare being a right

[Oddball]

But to me, the logical conclusion is, Anarchy. You do need some structure to society, and there lies the rub...What structure and on whose terms?

Another completely vapid bullshit argument...False dichotomy.

Rejecting socialist do-gooder tyranny does not equal no governance at all.

 

[Oddball]

It never ceases to amaze me that uber conservatives and libertarians don't see any good in government...

Bullshit ignorant strawman argument.

Gubmint, by its very nature, is coercion and naked force...Period....There is no kindness, compassion or hairy-fairy wonder in proactive compulsion of your neighbor.

There are times where such force is a good thing and others where it is not....Initiating force on the premise that you are somehow kinder, gentler, smarter, more compassionate, or whatever, than the next guy down the line is the root of sheer unadulterated hubris.

Christ, I'd hate to live life with your attitude. Did you get dumped at the Prom or something?

I accept your capitulation on the point.

 

[dblack]

But to me, the logical conclusion is, Anarchy. You do need some structure to society, and there lies the rub...What structure and on whose terms?

Well, that's just silly. There's a wide middle ground between caretaker government and anarchy. In my view, government should provide the rules and regulations that make it possible for us to get along and deal with each other from a position of trust. But I don't want government to take care of me and me or provide for my needs.

Independence is what maintains a free society.

 

[Dr Grump]

Oh, I know just what you meant. And you seemed to miss the subtle point of my reply.

Your statement speaks to the stupid claim that the only way a society can take care of its needs is through government...when, in fact, government has shown (and only Chris seems to stupid to realize this) that government can't do much very well.

Why would I want them running my health care system ?

Your second paragraph belies your first because I don't mean that. I believe you need a mixture of both - govt and free enterprise.

It never ceases to amaze me that uber conservatives and libertarians don't see any good in government, when clearly there are some very good aspects to the institution. Sure, there are some pretty ordinary aspects to it, too.

I come from a country where there is little private health care and mainly run by the government, and while it has its moments as far as making mistakes etc, there is definitely not the amount of whining and whinging that goes on on these boards by Americans about their health system.

At the end of the day, your health system suffers from the same thing that seems endemic in your society: anything that 'appears' to infringe on your 'personal freedoms' is bad - even if it's good for you.

I don't know what country you come from, but we are literally a collection of 50 little countries. All of which have the power to create health care systems. That is what the U.S. was founded upon.

We have many states bigger than Denmark or Scottland and several that are even larger than Norway. We have one that could probably kick Canada's rear in war all by itself.

And if one of them wants to run a health care system....like Mass...let them do it. But our federal system is all to well practiced at fleecing us with little or no accountability. That is why it is in such a mess right now. There are way to many conflicting agendas. At the state level it is much more simple.

So before you make those gross overgeneralizations about what we do and what we don't do, make sure you understand the context in which it is said.

I have been posting on these types of boards for going on 11 years now. I have read the above post - or similar - many times over those years. It seems most people have a problem with the fed govt at some level.

Interestingly, I'm from NZ, but have lived in Australia for the past four years. Most Aussies think we have too many levels of govt (federal, state and local) and almost all -liberal and conservative - want to get rid of the state govts...

 

[Dr Grump]

Bullshit ignorant strawman argument.

Gubmint, by its very nature, is coercion and naked force...Period....There is no kindness, compassion or hairy-fairy wonder in proactive compulsion of your neighbor.

There are times where such force is a good thing and others where it is not....Initiating force on the premise that you are somehow kinder, gentler, smarter, more compassionate, or whatever, than the next guy down the line is the root of sheer unadulterated hubris.

Christ, I'd hate to live life with your attitude. Did you get dumped at the Prom or something?

I accept your capitulation on the point.

It's not even capitulation. It's wondering how many beers you are up on this night? I'm guesses a dozen, although if it's American beer, you'd probably need a couple of dozen to be this biligerent.

 

[Dr Grump]

But to me, the logical conclusion is, Anarchy. You do need some structure to society, and there lies the rub...What structure and on whose terms?

Well, that's just silly. There's a wide middle ground between caretaker government and anarchy. In my view, government should provide the rules and regulations that make it possible for us to get along and deal with each other from a position of trust. But I don't want government to take care of me and me or provide for my needs.

Independence is what maintains a free society.

I think you'll find that vast majority hate having to rely on the govt to take care of them or provide their needs. There is a small minority - in every western country - that has what I call institutionised reliance on govt because their parents were unemployed most of their lives. But you will find the vast majority hate govt handouts. it doesn't suit the right's agenda, because they make it sound like anybody who gets anything from the govt see it as a right, when the vast majority do not.

I disagree re your independence analogy. As I have stated, you guys get too caught up in the concept. Maybe because you saw yourselves as the underdogs when you were under the leash of imperial Britain. As I've also stated, knowing your system like I do, you are no freer than any other western society. In fact, in some ways you are the least free....

 

[Oddball]

Christ, I'd hate to live life with your attitude. Did you get dumped at the Prom or something?

I accept your capitulation on the point.

It's not even capitulation. It's wondering how beers you are up on this night? I'm guesses a dozen, although if it's American beer, you'd probably need a couple of dozen to be this biligerent.

The coercive nature of gubmint isn't about me and how many beers I may or may not have had, Sparky.

Your capitulation is still accepted.

 

[Dr Grump]

I accept your capitulation on the point.

It's not even capitulation. It's wondering how beers you are up on this night? I'm guesses a dozen, although if it's American beer, you'd probably need a couple of dozen to be this biligerent.

The coercive nature of gubmint isn't about me and how many beers I may or may not have had, Sparky.

Your capitulation is still accepted.

As I said to Listening - go live on a island....there's plenty around....

You're far too cynical...

 

[IndependntLogic]

[Whether society has an obligation is one thing. Whether government has an obligation is another. Government was create to be a charity. It exists to protect you from predators, foreign and domestic. Anytime it steps beyond those responsibilities, it becomes the predator.

So then you consider libraries government being a predator? Highways? Universities?

You'll forgive me if I don't run my life based on the musings of Dante. Voting to force someone else to pay the expense of the underprivileged doesn't make you "warm-hearted." I makes you a thug. Welfare is not charity. It's theft.

ALL welfare is theft? Hmmm. I have a friend who was born blind. Now he's a successful business owner. Do you consider him a thief?
How about all the guys I work with at the VA? You know, the ones who gave arms, legs and emotional health for country. Are they thieves?

Jus' sayin' that the generalizations found in political pamphlets, whether Dem, Repub or Libertarian, are rarely universal and often just plain wrong.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I have been posting on these types of boards for going on 11 years now. I have read the above post - or similar - many times over those years. It seems most people have a problem with the fed govt at some level.

Interestingly, I'm from NZ, but have lived in Australia for the past four years. Most Aussies think we have too many levels of govt (federal, state and local) and almost all -liberal and conservative - want to get rid of the state govts...

Which is interesting given the fact that it has been the state governments, not the Federal government, which have historically been the greater violators of rights in the United States. Indeed, starting during the early 20th Century, it was Congress and the Federal courts which compelled many states to acknowledge individual rights per the 14th Amendment.

I disagree re your independence analogy. As I have stated, you guys get too caught up in the concept.

It has to do with conservative Utopian mythology and a comprehensive ignorance of what socialism actually was.

 

[Oddball]

It's not even capitulation. It's wondering how beers you are up on this night? I'm guesses a dozen, although if it's American beer, you'd probably need a couple of dozen to be this biligerent.

The coercive nature of gubmint isn't about me and how many beers I may or may not have had, Sparky.

Your capitulation is still accepted.

As I said to Listening - go live on a island....there's plenty around....

You're far too cynical...

"Go live on a island" is another liberoidal cop out, designed to to distract and change the subject.

You don't need to be a cynic to recognize that coercion and force is the game of the intellectually bankrupt.

 

[Oddball]

It has to do with conservative Utopian mythology and a comprehensive ignorance of what socialism actually was.

The only Utopians in this world are communistic wankers who believe that they can build a better world at the point of a gun.....Like you.

 

[Dr Grump]

The coercive nature of gubmint isn't about me and how many beers I may or may not have had, Sparky.

Your capitulation is still accepted.

As I said to Listening - go live on a island....there's plenty around....

You're far too cynical...

"Go live on a island" is another liberoidal cop out, designed to to distract and change the subject.

You don't need to be a cynic to recognize that coercion and force is the game of the intellectually bankrupt.

To be honest with you Odd, you seem to do a lot of complaining on this board but offer up Sweet FA in the form of solutions...

 

[Dr Grump]

It has to do with conservative Utopian mythology and a comprehensive ignorance of what socialism actually was.

The only Utopians in this world are communistic wankers who believe that they can build a better world at the point of a gun.....Like you.

So you were against the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan?

 

[Oddball]

It has to do with conservative Utopian mythology and a comprehensive ignorance of what socialism actually was.

The only Utopians in this world are communistic wankers who believe that they can build a better world at the point of a gun.....Like you.

So you were against the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan?

Iraq, yes.

For Afghanistan, but only to capture Bin Laden...Everything since has been bullshit.

I'm also against the continued occupations of Germany, Japan, Korea, the Balkans.....

Any other questions?

 

[Dr Grump]

The only Utopians in this world are communistic wankers who believe that they can build a better world at the point of a gun.....Like you.

So you were against the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan?

Iraq, yes.

For Afghanistan, but only to capture Bin Laden...Everything since has been bullshit.

I'm also against the continued occupations of Germany, Japan, Korea, the Balkans.....

Any other questions?

I can see your point with Japan and Germany.....Balkans is more of a police action, while North Korea could be come a rouge state at any time....shrug..

you need to relocate those bases to your southern border...

 

[Oddball]

....and the subject remains (attempted to be) changed.

Nice try.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

To be honest with you Odd, you seem to do a lot of complaining on this board but offer up Sweet FA in the form of solutions...

Which you likely already know, is typical of many on the right.

Remember also that American conservatives are for the most part Social Darwinists, reactionaries, and ignorant of other peoples and cultures outside of the United States. They perceive the ‘outside world’ a frightening, evil place, where America is a ‘shining city upon a hill,' and subscribe to such jingoistic nonsense as ‘American exceptionalism.’

They are indeed a dangerous blend of ignorance and arrogance.

 

[Oddball]

To be honest with you Odd, you seem to do a lot of complaining on this board but offer up Sweet FA in the form of solutions...

Which you likely already know, is typical of many on the right.

Remember also that American conservatives are for the most part Social Darwinists, reactionaries, and ignorant of other peoples and cultures outside of the United States. They perceive the ‘outside world’ a frightening, evil place, where America is a ‘shining city upon a hill,' and subscribe to such jingoistic nonsense as ‘American exceptionalism.’

They are indeed a dangerous blend of ignorance and arrogance.

Here's an idea....How about arrogant assholes like you just leaving people the hell alone, and quit pretending that you can come up with a collectivised solution for every human ill that exists?

Seems that know-itall dickweeds like you have no problem whatsoever seeing every human failing in everyone else, yet completely refuse to entertain the notion that such blemishes of human nature might just possibly apply to you....And you have the fucking nerve to talk about the ignorance and arrogance of others.

 

[Dr Grump]

....and the subject remains (attempted to be) changed.

Nice try.

Not trying to change the subject...subjects morph into other subjects happens all the time and I'm no great fan of health being a 'right' per se...