The Messianic Idea in Judaism

[Penelope]

I have yet to have a conversation with any xtian on the subject of the moshiach that didn’t end with them asking me, ‘Then why don’t you believe in Jesus?’

Such discussions between Jews and non-Jews are pointless.

Absolutely.

I disagree.

They are only pointless when an honest person can't have a discussion with another honest person about an honest difference of opinion without acting like a jerk towards one another. Me discussing my basis of belief without attacking your basis of belief and you discussing your basis of belief without attacking my basis of belief is not pointless. It is the exact opposite of pointless.

That's why I created this thread.

Two things.

First most xtians don’t believe they’re being jerks when they’re proselytising. They actually believe they’re doing you a favour.

Second, Jewish beliefs are for Jews. We don’t seek to make converts. We aren’t here to change minds. Jews can’t offer insights into the xtian faith. Only a xtian cleric can do that.

Studying Judaism, Kabbala, or Tanyas won’t make you a better xtian. It didn’t work for Madonna.

So then you must believe that xtian's are either dishonest or you don't believe it is possible for honest men to discuss honest differences of opinons without being jerks?

Or is the latter just limited to xtian's too?

The fact that you say that is proof of what I'm saying.

I never said anyone was being a jerk. I said that, unintentionally I believe, a xtian who brings up his faith to a Jew might be perceived that way. The xtian legitimately believes he's performing a service to the Jew. Conversely, there is nothing you can learn about your own faith from studying mine. That is because everything you learn will be perceived in a way that fits your theological perspective. That's not a bad thing. It's just fact.

When two people are coming at an issue with such profoundly different points of view, there is no chance of coming to a consensus. There is no common ground that can be achieved. There is no point in having the discussion.

Leaving each other alone in our perspective beliefs is the only beneficial outcome.

And now you understand why Rome had to destroy your temple and besides you destroyed it yourself from your infighting and civil wars.

 

[Penelope]

Two things.

First most xtians don’t believe they’re being jerks when they’re proselytising. They actually believe they’re doing you a favour.

Second, Jewish beliefs are for Jews. We don’t seek to make converts. We aren’t here to change minds. Jews can’t offer insights into the xtian faith. Only a xtian cleric can do that.

Studying Judaism, Kabbala, or Tanyas won’t make you a better xtian. It didn’t work for Madonna.

So then you must believe that xtian's are either dishonest or you don't believe it is possible for honest men to discuss honest differences of opinons without being jerks?

Or is the latter just limited to xtian's too?

The fact that you say that is proof of what I'm saying.

I never said anyone was being a jerk. I said that, unintentionally I believe, a xtian who brings up his faith to a Jew might be perceived that way. The xtian legitimately believes he's performing a service to the Jew. Conversely, there is nothing you can learn about your own faith from studying mine. That is because everything you learn will be perceived in a way that fits your theological perspective. That's not a bad thing. It's just fact.

When two people are coming at an issue with such profoundly different points of view, there is no chance of coming to a consensus. There is no common ground that can be achieved. There is no point in having the discussion.

Leaving each other alone in our perspective beliefs is the only beneficial outcome.

There is a lot I can learn about your faith by discussing it with you. Moving from the state of not knowing something to the state of knowing something is learning.

I'm a curious guy. I love knowledge.

If you're looking to collect trivia then there is a lot to be gained. If you're looking for profound theological insights then I'm afraid you're not going to achieve much.

Any information you can provide on the subject is welcome. I promise I won't bite, or argue or even sprinkle any holy water on you.

Read Nabre 2011 edition, Isa 7:14 and the footnotes. Don't you find it funny that Vatican II was shortly after the European Jews declared themselves a state.

 

[Penelope]

The 23 marble relief portraits over the gallery doors of the House Chamber in the U.S. Capitol depict historical figures noted for their work in establishing the principles that underlie American law. They were installed when the chamber was remodeled in 1949-1950. Created in bas relief of white Vermont marble by seven different sculptors, the plaques each measure 28 inches in diameter.

the plaques each measure 28 inches in diameter.

Map of portraits in the House Chamber. Click on the image above to enlarge.
About Relief Portrait Plaques of Lawgivers
-------------------------------------------

Moses is the center one in back of the house, so the speaker can see him, and the only one with the full face, the others point to him, Jesus is not there.

Note the date they were put up. Don't you find it funny , in a strange sort of way, not ha ha funny?

 

[irosie91]

Yes the Jews became monotheistic and got everything in the OP from being in Babylon and Zoroastrianism. Note the 2 scenes in genesis and they were not monotheistic before the exile.
After the exile they no longer referred to Yahweh but Lord.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jews had learned many things from the Persians and actively included Persian elements in their religion. It's important to note that this occurred side by side with the effort to purify the religion! Most of these elements were popular elements rather than official beliefs; they would persist only in Christianity which arose among the people rather than the educated and priestly classes. Among these were

a.) adoption of a dualistic universe. In early Hebrew belief, the universe was dominated only by Yahweh. All history was the result of two forces: Yahweh and human will. Perhaps in an effort to make sense of the Exile, the Hebrews gradually adopted the Persian idea that the universe is composed of two diametrically opposed forces, one good, and the other evil. So, after the Babylonian exile, the Hebrews, in their popular religion, talk about an evil force opposed to Yahweh, which becomes the "devil" in Christianity. (Satan in the Hebrew story, Job , is actually a member of Yahweh's circle; he seems to be some kind of itinerant prosecuting attorney.)

b.) belief in a dualistic afterlife. Before the Exile, the Hebrews believed that the soul after death went to a house of dust which they called "Sheol," to abide for a brief time before fading completely from existence. This belief was identical to all other Semitic versions of the afterlife. Therefore, Hebraism was primarily a this-world religion before the Exile. The Persians, though, believed that the souls of the good would reunite with the principle of good in eternal bliss; the souls of the evil would reunite with the principle evil to suffer until the final defeat of evil. In popular religion, the Hebrews adopted this view of the afterlife. This view of the afterlife powerfully explains suffering in this life, such as the Exile; cosmic justice is apparent only at one's death rather than during one's life. Again, it is only in the popular Jewish religions, such as the Essenes and the Christians, where this view becomes orthodox.

For another two hundred years, Persia dominated all of the Middle East and Egypt, and came within a hair's breadth of conquering Greece. During all this time Palestine was a tribute state of Persia. However, in the late fourth century BC, another man got the idea of conquering the world and set about doing it with ruthless efficiency. He was a Greek: Alexander of Macedon. When he conquered Persia in 332 BC, Palestine became a Greek state, and the children of Yavan would mix once again with the children of Shem.

After the Babylonian Exile

\

except for a few details, penny dear-----you entire essay is full of shit. The religion far more influenced by the
Persian creed is CHRISTIANITY ---not Judaism. That is first ROMAN culture and second---Persian creed.
Judaism was never polytheistic OR Dualistc --------Christianity absorbed both elements---ie polytheism and dualism. IN FACT----a VERY significant problem for jews living in Persia -----back then was the jewish
REJECTION of dualism--<<< an historic fact. As to THE DEVIL-----in Christianity THE DEVIL IS A GOD----
having powers of his own something like Hades. In Judaism SATAN is a divine construct only ----as you
correctly stated (even if you misunderstood the issue) as a "prosecuting attorney"-----under the control of the
creator judge ---ie the single POWER in the universe----"GOD" The issue is complicated in Judaism by
MANs' FREE WILL -----not by the freewill of the Christian "god" SATAN

Tell the Jewish library that.

there is a person called "the jewish library"?

Yes that is where I took the article from
After the Babylonian Exile

Yes the Jews became monotheistic and got everything in the OP from being in Babylon and Zoroastrianism. Note the 2 scenes in genesis and they were not monotheistic before the exile.
After the exile they no longer referred to Yahweh but Lord.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jews had learned many things from the Persians and actively included Persian elements in their religion. It's important to note that this occurred side by side with the effort to purify the religion! Most of these elements were popular elements rather than official beliefs; they would persist only in Christianity which arose among the people rather than the educated and priestly classes. Among these were

a.) adoption of a dualistic universe. In early Hebrew belief, the universe was dominated only by Yahweh. All history was the result of two forces: Yahweh and human will. Perhaps in an effort to make sense of the Exile, the Hebrews gradually adopted the Persian idea that the universe is composed of two diametrically opposed forces, one good, and the other evil. So, after the Babylonian exile, the Hebrews, in their popular religion, talk about an evil force opposed to Yahweh, which becomes the "devil" in Christianity. (Satan in the Hebrew story, Job , is actually a member of Yahweh's circle; he seems to be some kind of itinerant prosecuting attorney.)

b.) belief in a dualistic afterlife. Before the Exile, the Hebrews believed that the soul after death went to a house of dust which they called "Sheol," to abide for a brief time before fading completely from existence. This belief was identical to all other Semitic versions of the afterlife. Therefore, Hebraism was primarily a this-world religion before the Exile. The Persians, though, believed that the souls of the good would reunite with the principle of good in eternal bliss; the souls of the evil would reunite with the principle evil to suffer until the final defeat of evil. In popular religion, the Hebrews adopted this view of the afterlife. This view of the afterlife powerfully explains suffering in this life, such as the Exile; cosmic justice is apparent only at one's death rather than during one's life. Again, it is only in the popular Jewish religions, such as the Essenes and the Christians, where this view becomes orthodox.

For another two hundred years, Persia dominated all of the Middle East and Egypt, and came within a hair's breadth of conquering Greece. During all this time Palestine was a tribute state of Persia. However, in the late fourth century BC, another man got the idea of conquering the world and set about doing it with ruthless efficiency. He was a Greek: Alexander of Macedon. When he conquered Persia in 332 BC, Palestine became a Greek state, and the children of Yavan would mix once again with the children of Shem.

After the Babylonian Exile

\

except for a few details, penny dear-----you entire essay is full of shit. The religion far more influenced by the
Persian creed is CHRISTIANITY ---not Judaism. That is first ROMAN culture and second---Persian creed.
Judaism was never polytheistic OR Dualistc --------Christianity absorbed both elements---ie polytheism and dualism. IN FACT----a VERY significant problem for jews living in Persia -----back then was the jewish
REJECTION of dualism--<<< an historic fact. As to THE DEVIL-----in Christianity THE DEVIL IS A GOD----
having powers of his own something like Hades. In Judaism SATAN is a divine construct only ----as you
correctly stated (even if you misunderstood the issue) as a "prosecuting attorney"-----under the control of the
creator judge ---ie the single POWER in the universe----"GOD" The issue is complicated in Judaism by
MANs' FREE WILL -----not by the freewill of the Christian "god" SATAN

Tell the Jewish library that.

there is a person called "the jewish library"?

Yes that is where I took the article from
After the Babylonian Exile

a badly written article which you barely understand and imagine that it was a good idea to both misinterpret ANS swallow without critical evaluation

 

[ding]

It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the mashiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the mashiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the mashiach, then that person is not the mashiach.