The most loved word, and also the most hated.

[Pogo]

Dear Pogo
Do you agree that all humans are biased and conditioned to favor or reject things according to what experiences we are born into?

Sure. That makes sense.

So if you had this influence early on and rejected it,
doesn't that show how biases happen. And this makes us treat people as unequal. If you reject Christianity
and have a bias against it, you will not be able to understand and love all people equally. Nobody can!

Maybe I wasn't clear. The bias in my childhood was promoting Christianism, not rejecting it. There was no such thing as rejecting it then. That was verboten. You would "go to hell". (again the old rhetorical fascism -- "you vill think ze prescribed thoughts or else -- ve haf vays") This had to be tucked away, internalized and worked out in the proverbial dead of night, like Winston Smith writing in his diary that he has the right to defy the State and declare that "two plus two equals four".

Yes, what I'm saying is that because of this background,
then YOU are more biased TODAY to rejecting Christianity.

I am more into forgiving false teachings of it, since it was
never forced on me growing up, but I only learned it by
free choice AFTER I went through a spiritual rebirth process.

So my bias tends to be toward including and correcting it,
and forgiving the twisted corruptions abuses and misteaching of it.
All the negatives are less and correctable in light with the good I've seen;
again being biased because I have friends who practice spiritual healing and have
saved lives using this teaching correctly. I have found other
resources that can medically prove these methods works to
heal mental and physical ills by REMOVING generational causes
through forgiveness therapy. So I am biased toward proving this
scientifically so more people have this knowledge and can make
fully informed choices based on what is really taught in Christianity.

Interesting -- so you went into it voluntarily as a free choice?

Would you care to explain why? And concurrently -- and I know like all religion questions this is a personal question and you need not address it --- would you care to share what kind of tradition/indoctrination you left behind to get there?

Oh boy this gets deep Pogo
I went into it with nothing, my mother and father came from a Vietnamese Buddhist background
and gave all the kids a choice to adopt what we believed made sense, to try to do right and good things
and try to avoid bad things that cause problems and suffereing. To take responsibility to do the best job possible. So practical ethics. My personal take on this is "what makes people happy" because if something is causing a problem or suffering "people make it clear they aren't happy" So you can use that as a gauge.

I had a spiritual experience in 1990 and then I saw that both the paths in Buddhism from the East and Christianity from the West were merging in fulfillment of peace and justice on earth. I had a vision that
is what the Bible represented, but I'd never read it. I had to start studying it to "interpret" the symbolism
and figure out the spiritual process and patterns that are represented there.

Same with Buddhism so I could TRY to communicate with my mom. (she does better with monks who explain it using Buddhism in ways I learn from them and cannot figure out myself)

And now with Constitutional language so I can communicate with people of diverse religious and political beliefs who all use Constitutional principles to protect and defend their interests as a common language or law.

If you were to ask me what denomination I am
I would say I am Constitutionalist. I have joined
a Unitarian Universalist fellowship that is older conservative
type progressives, who have both secular progressive interests
but come from old school backgrounds and are not into rejecting Christianity or God.
So we don't argue about that, but are trying to work out ways to
formulate solutions and share these through the peace and justice community.

Whatever this belief in peace and justice is, that is what
I consider the secular equivalent of Christ Jesus as Restorative Justice.

So I have the same faith as a Christian who uses the Bible
but I explain and express it in Constitutional terms: secular terms of Restorative
Justice and "democratic due process" to establish Equal Justice
Under Law by free choice and CONSENSUS on law (not by force of law or coercion).

I would say I came out as a Constitutionalist,
(and have regretted it ever since, it is too much work
trying to enforce a sense of equal respect and protections of all people equally,
who insist on abusing and treating each other unequally, very hard if not impossible
in a politically divided bullying environment that rewards people for blaming not correcting problems)

I shall ruminate on this at a future point. But a quick observation if I may --- I get the sense that when you use the term "Christ Jesus" you mean it metaphorically. And I can dig that. It's those who take it literally that bring us down.

And kudos to the Universalists, they're good people and I say that because in my experience they keep open minds.

 

[Lutroo]

Dear Pogo
Do you agree that all humans are biased and conditioned to favor or reject things according to what experiences we are born into?

Sure. That makes sense.

So if you had this influence early on and rejected it,
doesn't that show how biases happen. And this makes us treat people as unequal. If you reject Christianity
and have a bias against it, you will not be able to understand and love all people equally. Nobody can!

Maybe I wasn't clear. The bias in my childhood was promoting Christianism, not rejecting it. There was no such thing as rejecting it then. That was verboten. You would "go to hell". (again the old rhetorical fascism -- "you vill think ze prescribed thoughts or else -- ve haf vays") This had to be tucked away, internalized and worked out in the proverbial dead of night, like Winston Smith writing in his diary that he has the right to defy the State and declare that "two plus two equals four".

Yes, what I'm saying is that because of this background,
then YOU are more biased TODAY to rejecting Christianity.

I am more into forgiving false teachings of it, since it was
never forced on me growing up, but I only learned it by
free choice AFTER I went through a spiritual rebirth process.

So my bias tends to be toward including and correcting it,
and forgiving the twisted corruptions abuses and misteaching of it.
All the negatives are less and correctable in light with the good I've seen;
again being biased because I have friends who practice spiritual healing and have
saved lives using this teaching correctly. I have found other
resources that can medically prove these methods works to
heal mental and physical ills by REMOVING generational causes
through forgiveness therapy. So I am biased toward proving this
scientifically so more people have this knowledge and can make
fully informed choices based on what is really taught in Christianity.

Interesting -- so you went into it voluntarily as a free choice?

Would you care to explain why? And concurrently -- and I know like all religion questions this is a personal question and you need not address it --- would you care to share what kind of tradition/indoctrination you left behind to get there?

Oh boy this gets deep Pogo
I went into it with nothing, my mother and father came from a Vietnamese Buddhist background
and gave all the kids a choice to adopt what we believed made sense, to try to do right and good things
and try to avoid bad things that cause problems and suffereing. To take responsibility to do the best job possible. So practical ethics. My personal take on this is "what makes people happy" because if something is causing a problem or suffering "people make it clear they aren't happy" So you can use that as a gauge.

I had a spiritual experience in 1990 and then I saw that both the paths in Buddhism from the East and Christianity from the West were merging in fulfillment of peace and justice on earth. I had a vision that
is what the Bible represented, but I'd never read it. I had to start studying it to "interpret" the symbolism
and figure out the spiritual process and patterns that are represented there.

Same with Buddhism so I could TRY to communicate with my mom. (she does better with monks who explain it using Buddhism in ways I learn from them and cannot figure out myself)

And now with Constitutional language so I can communicate with people of diverse religious and political beliefs who all use Constitutional principles to protect and defend their interests as a common language or law.

If you were to ask me what denomination I am
I would say I am Constitutionalist. I have joined
a Unitarian Universalist fellowship that is older conservative
type progressives, who have both secular progressive interests
but come from old school backgrounds and are not into rejecting Christianity or God.
So we don't argue about that, but are trying to work out ways to
formulate solutions and share these through the peace and justice community.

Whatever this belief in peace and justice is, that is what
I consider the secular equivalent of Christ Jesus as Restorative Justice.

So I have the same faith as a Christian who uses the Bible
but I explain and express it in Constitutional terms: secular terms of Restorative
Justice and "democratic due process" to establish Equal Justice
Under Law by free choice and CONSENSUS on law (not by force of law or coercion).

I would say I came out as a Constitutionalist,
(and have regretted it ever since, it is too much work
trying to enforce a sense of equal respect and protections of all people equally,
who insist on abusing and treating each other unequally, very hard if not impossible
in a politically divided bullying environment that rewards people for blaming not correcting problems)

There you go again, talking about interpreting the Bible. If one can read it in their native language, no interpretation is required. It's message is so simple a child can understand it. I just don't understand why you think God requires help to get His message across. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? I'm not trying to belittle your beliefs. I just don't understand them. I'm not sure I want to. Gods word will not return void. It is sufficient to the task at hand. It does not need to be "translated".

 

[Lutroo]

Redemption—the most important of all gospel truths—is at once the sweetest note in the song of Bible believers and a favorite target for the derision of Bible deniers. It offends the pride of fallen men to learn that they need to be redeemed, but it rejoices the souls of regenerate men to know their need has been graciously met.

And this is why the Gospel of Christ is so hated by many. They hate it because they refuse to admit that they are not good enough to make it to Heaven on their own. They will come up with all kinds of excuses, but the root cause is PRIDE. Always has been. Always will be.

Many will even tell you that they do not believe in God. This is not so, for the most part. Sure, there are those who have not made up their minds yet. But others have.

These unregenerate souls have rejected God, and the sacrifice that His Son made for us. These people are to be pitied above all others, because having known Christ, they have spit in His face and rejected the most precious gift ever offered. The gift of REDEMPTION.

Today is the day of Salvation.

If you are not saved, and would like to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, it is very simple to do.

First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.

Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.

Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you. And here is how you do this. The words aren't really that important. It is your intent that matters. It goes something like this.

View attachment 76409

No one pays for you sins except you, don't put your sins on a poor dead man.

You cannot pay for your own sins. That's why Jesus decided to do it. That's Gospel one oh one. For by grace are ye saved. Not of works, lest any man should boast. There is nothing you can do to save yourself. This is a fact. You cannot earn your way to Heaven. This is why Jesus died in our place. It stands to reason if we could save ourselves, Jesus would not have had to die. Would He?

It is not a fact. It is a belief.

No reason why it can't be both.

You haven't stated a single fact in your paragraph above. You've only stated your beliefs as though they are facts, and then you state your beliefs are facts. Nope.

If one assumes that the Bible is the word of God, then what I have stated is fact. If you don't even believe in God, then what are you doing here? What do you hope to accomplish? Or are you simply trolling?

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Pogo
Do you agree that all humans are biased and conditioned to favor or reject things according to what experiences we are born into?

Sure. That makes sense.

So if you had this influence early on and rejected it,
doesn't that show how biases happen. And this makes us treat people as unequal. If you reject Christianity
and have a bias against it, you will not be able to understand and love all people equally. Nobody can!

Maybe I wasn't clear. The bias in my childhood was promoting Christianism, not rejecting it. There was no such thing as rejecting it then. That was verboten. You would "go to hell". (again the old rhetorical fascism -- "you vill think ze prescribed thoughts or else -- ve haf vays") This had to be tucked away, internalized and worked out in the proverbial dead of night, like Winston Smith writing in his diary that he has the right to defy the State and declare that "two plus two equals four".

Yes, what I'm saying is that because of this background,
then YOU are more biased TODAY to rejecting Christianity.

I am more into forgiving false teachings of it, since it was
never forced on me growing up, but I only learned it by
free choice AFTER I went through a spiritual rebirth process.

So my bias tends to be toward including and correcting it,
and forgiving the twisted corruptions abuses and misteaching of it.
All the negatives are less and correctable in light with the good I've seen;
again being biased because I have friends who practice spiritual healing and have
saved lives using this teaching correctly. I have found other
resources that can medically prove these methods works to
heal mental and physical ills by REMOVING generational causes
through forgiveness therapy. So I am biased toward proving this
scientifically so more people have this knowledge and can make
fully informed choices based on what is really taught in Christianity.

Interesting -- so you went into it voluntarily as a free choice?

Would you care to explain why? And concurrently -- and I know like all religion questions this is a personal question and you need not address it --- would you care to share what kind of tradition/indoctrination you left behind to get there?

Oh boy this gets deep Pogo
I went into it with nothing, my mother and father came from a Vietnamese Buddhist background
and gave all the kids a choice to adopt what we believed made sense, to try to do right and good things
and try to avoid bad things that cause problems and suffereing. To take responsibility to do the best job possible. So practical ethics. My personal take on this is "what makes people happy" because if something is causing a problem or suffering "people make it clear they aren't happy" So you can use that as a gauge.

I had a spiritual experience in 1990 and then I saw that both the paths in Buddhism from the East and Christianity from the West were merging in fulfillment of peace and justice on earth. I had a vision that
is what the Bible represented, but I'd never read it. I had to start studying it to "interpret" the symbolism
and figure out the spiritual process and patterns that are represented there.

Same with Buddhism so I could TRY to communicate with my mom. (she does better with monks who explain it using Buddhism in ways I learn from them and cannot figure out myself)

And now with Constitutional language so I can communicate with people of diverse religious and political beliefs who all use Constitutional principles to protect and defend their interests as a common language or law.

If you were to ask me what denomination I am
I would say I am Constitutionalist. I have joined
a Unitarian Universalist fellowship that is older conservative
type progressives, who have both secular progressive interests
but come from old school backgrounds and are not into rejecting Christianity or God.
So we don't argue about that, but are trying to work out ways to
formulate solutions and share these through the peace and justice community.

Whatever this belief in peace and justice is, that is what
I consider the secular equivalent of Christ Jesus as Restorative Justice.

So I have the same faith as a Christian who uses the Bible
but I explain and express it in Constitutional terms: secular terms of Restorative
Justice and "democratic due process" to establish Equal Justice
Under Law by free choice and CONSENSUS on law (not by force of law or coercion).

I would say I came out as a Constitutionalist,
(and have regretted it ever since, it is too much work
trying to enforce a sense of equal respect and protections of all people equally,
who insist on abusing and treating each other unequally, very hard if not impossible
in a politically divided bullying environment that rewards people for blaming not correcting problems)

There you go again, talking about interpreting the Bible. If one can read it in their native language, no interpretation is required. It's message is so simple a child can understand it. I just don't understand why you think God requires help to get His message across. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? I'm not trying to belittle your beliefs. I just don't understand them. I'm not sure I want to. Gods word will not return void. It is sufficient to the task at hand. It does not need to be "translated".

Dear Lutroo
When Jesus used farming parables to share the Kingdom of God
with ILLITERATE farmers, didn't Jesus EXPLAIN using mustard seeds
and how plants or weeds grow. Jesus EXPLAINED we should be
like the lilies in the field. So Jesus didn't cite the same scriptures
as used to argue with Pharisees in the temples who were under those laws.

Isn't that like taking CONCEPTS of God and the Kingdom of God
and the PROCESS of spiritual growth and Explaining the CONCEPTS
using real life examples or PARABLES from real life that people relate to?

Here's an example of modern parables I've used:

a. comparing Christianity with water
People often blame religions or Christianity for mass destruction they caused by religious wars and abuse.
People who can't forgive don't credit the good that Christian faith, belief or practice has done to save lives,
but only focus on the bad, and condemn it. Some even say to get rid of Christianity and religion as bad.

So I compare with water and with oceans.
Without water and oceans we cannot live.
But when oceans produce huge floods, hurricanes or tsunamis
the same Nature that gives us life brings great destruction and death.
The forces can produce catastrophic disasters without mercy or without "fault of the victims."

Do we blame the ocean. Do we curse Nature?
Or do we FORGIVE and accept the good with the bad.
So this is a parable that explains why it isn't fair
to blame Christianity but to look at the greater "force of good"
and lives saved by this faith, not just the death caused when things turn destructive.

b. comparing the killing and return of Jesus with an antivirus program
when people ask why would Jesus need to be sacrificed.
What loving God would do this and then punish people for not understanding or believing.

I have explained this using the parable of a computer system filled with viruses
so bad that it cannot be saved by anything already on the computer. The solution is to download an antivirus program that can clean out all the corruption. But in order for this to work, it has to be downloaded while the system is on or alive, shut it down and kill the system, then reboot the system back to life WITH the
program entered into it, so that the program can INFILTRATE every file and the entire operating system
to find and clean out every trace of the bugs and viruses.

Similarly Jesus represents perfect Justice sent down from heaven to earth.
And was sacrificed on this human level of worldly existence so that influence/spirit
could rejoin us all with the higher level of collective truth knowledge and laws that God represents as the source of all.

Since Jesus has no debts or sins to pay "back" then
all the good done for the sake of JUSTICE is paid FORWARD.
So that is how the cycle of injustice is broken, by paying forward instead of backwards.

If we don't forgive the past we stay stuck in the past.
If we forgive and work toward healing and corrections in the future,
we rebuild and restore, receive new life and insights/solutions to establish
Truth Justice and Peace that is lasting for all humanity.

So Lutroo when I explain that is the SPIRIT and meaning of the Bible
* to move from Retributive Justice or living by the letter of law in the OT
* to living by the Spirit of the law or Restorative Justice in the NT that Christ Jesus represents
then people can understand this is a POSITIVE CHANGE to unite in Christ Jesus.

They no longer fear the Bible means punishment and negative forces, like a tsunami,
but understand the love of God is more like the ocean that provides water and life for all humanity.

 

[Lutroo]

Oh b

Sure. That makes sense.

Maybe I wasn't clear. The bias in my childhood was promoting Christianism, not rejecting it. There was no such thing as rejecting it then. That was verboten. You would "go to hell". (again the old rhetorical fascism -- "you vill think ze prescribed thoughts or else -- ve haf vays") This had to be tucked away, internalized and worked out in the proverbial dead of night, like Winston Smith writing in his diary that he has the right to defy the State and declare that "two plus two equals four".

Yes, what I'm saying is that because of this background,
then YOU are more biased TODAY to rejecting Christianity.

I am more into forgiving false teachings of it, since it was
never forced on me growing up, but I only learned it by
free choice AFTER I went through a spiritual rebirth process.

So my bias tends to be toward including and correcting it,
and forgiving the twisted corruptions abuses and misteaching of it.
All the negatives are less and correctable in light with the good I've seen;
again being biased because I have friends who practice spiritual healing and have
saved lives using this teaching correctly. I have found other
resources that can medically prove these methods works to
heal mental and physical ills by REMOVING generational causes
through forgiveness therapy. So I am biased toward proving this
scientifically so more people have this knowledge and can make
fully informed choices based on what is really taught in Christianity.

Interesting -- so you went into it voluntarily as a free choice?

Would you care to explain why? And concurrently -- and I know like all religion questions this is a personal question and you need not address it --- would you care to share what kind of tradition/indoctrination you left behind to get there?

Oh boy this gets deep Pogo
I went into it with nothing, my mother and father came from a Vietnamese Buddhist background
and gave all the kids a choice to adopt what we believed made sense, to try to do right and good things
and try to avoid bad things that cause problems and suffereing. To take responsibility to do the best job possible. So practical ethics. My personal take on this is "what makes people happy" because if something is causing a problem or suffering "people make it clear they aren't happy" So you can use that as a gauge.

I had a spiritual experience in 1990 and then I saw that both the paths in Buddhism from the East and Christianity from the West were merging in fulfillment of peace and justice on earth. I had a vision that
is what the Bible represented, but I'd never read it. I had to start studying it to "interpret" the symbolism
and figure out the spiritual process and patterns that are represented there.

Same with Buddhism so I could TRY to communicate with my mom. (she does better with monks who explain it using Buddhism in ways I learn from them and cannot figure out myself)

And now with Constitutional language so I can communicate with people of diverse religious and political beliefs who all use Constitutional principles to protect and defend their interests as a common language or law.

If you were to ask me what denomination I am
I would say I am Constitutionalist. I have joined
a Unitarian Universalist fellowship that is older conservative
type progressives, who have both secular progressive interests
but come from old school backgrounds and are not into rejecting Christianity or God.
So we don't argue about that, but are trying to work out ways to
formulate solutions and share these through the peace and justice community.

Whatever this belief in peace and justice is, that is what
I consider the secular equivalent of Christ Jesus as Restorative Justice.

So I have the same faith as a Christian who uses the Bible
but I explain and express it in Constitutional terms: secular terms of Restorative
Justice and "democratic due process" to establish Equal Justice
Under Law by free choice and CONSENSUS on law (not by force of law or coercion).

I would say I came out as a Constitutionalist,
(and have regretted it ever since, it is too much work
trying to enforce a sense of equal respect and protections of all people equally,
who insist on abusing and treating each other unequally, very hard if not impossible
in a politically divided bullying environment that rewards people for blaming not correcting problems)

There you go again, talking about interpreting the Bible. If one can read it in their native language, no interpretation is required. It's message is so simple a child can understand it. I just don't understand why you think God requires help to get His message across. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? I'm not trying to belittle your beliefs. I just don't understand them. I'm not sure I want to. Gods word will not return void. It is sufficient to the task at hand. It does not need to be "translated".

Dear Lutroo
When Jesus used farming parables to share the Kingdom of God
with ILLITERATE farmers, didn't Jesus EXPLAIN using mustard seeds
and how plants or weeds grow. Jesus EXPLAINED we should be
like the lilies in the field. So Jesus didn't cite the same scriptures
as used to argue with Pharisees in the temples who were under those laws.

Isn't that like taking CONCEPTS of God and the Kingdom of God
and the PROCESS of spiritual growth and Explaining the CONCEPTS
using real life examples or PARABLES from real life that people relate to?

Here's an example of modern parables I've used:

a. comparing Christianity with water
People often blame religions or Christianity for mass destruction they caused by religious wars and abuse.
People who can't forgive don't credit the good that Christian faith, belief or practice has done to save lives,
but only focus on the bad, and condemn it. Some even say to get rid of Christianity and religion as bad.

So I compare with water and with oceans.
Without water and oceans we cannot live.
But when oceans produce huge floods, hurricanes or tsunamis
the same Nature that gives us life brings great destruction and death.
The forces can produce catastrophic disasters without mercy or without "fault of the victims."

Do we blame the ocean. Do we curse Nature?
Or do we FORGIVE and accept the good with the bad.
So this is a parable that explains why it isn't fair
to blame Christianity but to look at the greater "force of good"
and lives saved by this faith, not just the death caused when things turn destructive.

b. comparing the killing and return of Jesus with an antivirus program
when people ask why would Jesus need to be sacrificed.
What loving God would do this and then punish people for not understanding or believing.

I have explained this using the parable of a computer system filled with viruses
so bad that it cannot be saved by anything already on the computer. The solution is to download an antivirus program that can clean out all the corruption. But in order for this to work, it has to be downloaded while the system is on or alive, shut it down and kill the system, then reboot the system back to life WITH the
program entered into it, so that the program can INFILTRATE every file and the entire operating system
to find and clean out every trace of the bugs and viruses.

Similarly Jesus represents perfect Justice sent down from heaven to earth.
And was sacrificed on this human level of worldly existence so that influence/spirit
could rejoin us all with the higher level of collective truth knowledge and laws that God represents as the source of all.

Since Jesus has no debts or sins to pay "back" then
all the good done for the sake of JUSTICE is paid FORWARD.
So that is how the cycle of injustice is broken, by paying forward instead of backwards.

If we don't forgive the past we stay stuck in the past.
If we forgive and work toward healing and corrections in the future,
we rebuild and restore, receive new life and insights/solutions to establish
Truth Justice and Peace that is lasting for all humanity.

So Lutroo when I explain that is the SPIRIT and meaning of the Bible
* to move from Retributive Justice or living by the letter of law in the OT
* to living by the Spirit of the law or Restorative Justice in the NT that Christ Jesus represents
then people can understand this is a POSITIVE CHANGE to unite in Christ Jesus.

They no longer fear the Bible means punishment and negative forces, like a tsunami,
but understand the love of God is more like the ocean that provides water and life for all humanity.

Oh boy! I can just see you, trying to use this approach with a tribe of cannibals and trying to explain the Lords Supper to them.

 

[emilynghiem]

RE: scriptural references
Lutroo for scriptural references to Gentiles under natural laws:

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
-- JOHN 10:16

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law,
do by nature the things contained in the law,
these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves"
-- ROMANS 2:14

Lutroo just because Gentiles are under natural laws
does not mean they are divided from the Jews/Believers.
We are still one in spirit because the Lord of lords
is Lord of all Lords or Laws (see Colossians 1:16)

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free,
male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
-- GALATIANS 3:28

Parable I would use here Lutroo
The 50 several states are each under local laws.
But all states are UNITED under one Constitution
as the law of the land. that doesn't mean that
all the states throw away their state laws and only
follow what is in the Constitution. They follow the
state laws which are supposed to be in harmony
or consistent with the federal Constitution. So likewise
the Gentiles remain under natural and civil laws; and
these are supposed to be in harmony with God's law
given to the churched. But the laws are not worded the same.

 

[Tilly]

No one pays for you sins except you, don't put your sins on a poor dead man.

You cannot pay for your own sins. That's why Jesus decided to do it. That's Gospel one oh one. For by grace are ye saved. Not of works, lest any man should boast. There is nothing you can do to save yourself. This is a fact. You cannot earn your way to Heaven. This is why Jesus died in our place. It stands to reason if we could save ourselves, Jesus would not have had to die. Would He?

It is not a fact. It is a belief.

No reason why it can't be both.

You haven't stated a single fact in your paragraph above. You've only stated your beliefs as though they are facts, and then you state your beliefs are facts. Nope.

If one assumes that the Bible is the word of God, then what I have stated is fact. If you don't even believe in God, then what are you doing here? What do you hope to accomplish? Or are you simply trolling?

Assumptions aren't facts either.

 

[emilynghiem]

Oh b

Yes, what I'm saying is that because of this background,
then YOU are more biased TODAY to rejecting Christianity.

I am more into forgiving false teachings of it, since it was
never forced on me growing up, but I only learned it by
free choice AFTER I went through a spiritual rebirth process.

So my bias tends to be toward including and correcting it,
and forgiving the twisted corruptions abuses and misteaching of it.
All the negatives are less and correctable in light with the good I've seen;
again being biased because I have friends who practice spiritual healing and have
saved lives using this teaching correctly. I have found other
resources that can medically prove these methods works to
heal mental and physical ills by REMOVING generational causes
through forgiveness therapy. So I am biased toward proving this
scientifically so more people have this knowledge and can make
fully informed choices based on what is really taught in Christianity.

Interesting -- so you went into it voluntarily as a free choice?

Would you care to explain why? And concurrently -- and I know like all religion questions this is a personal question and you need not address it --- would you care to share what kind of tradition/indoctrination you left behind to get there?

Oh boy this gets deep Pogo
I went into it with nothing, my mother and father came from a Vietnamese Buddhist background
and gave all the kids a choice to adopt what we believed made sense, to try to do right and good things
and try to avoid bad things that cause problems and suffereing. To take responsibility to do the best job possible. So practical ethics. My personal take on this is "what makes people happy" because if something is causing a problem or suffering "people make it clear they aren't happy" So you can use that as a gauge.

I had a spiritual experience in 1990 and then I saw that both the paths in Buddhism from the East and Christianity from the West were merging in fulfillment of peace and justice on earth. I had a vision that
is what the Bible represented, but I'd never read it. I had to start studying it to "interpret" the symbolism
and figure out the spiritual process and patterns that are represented there.

Same with Buddhism so I could TRY to communicate with my mom. (she does better with monks who explain it using Buddhism in ways I learn from them and cannot figure out myself)

And now with Constitutional language so I can communicate with people of diverse religious and political beliefs who all use Constitutional principles to protect and defend their interests as a common language or law.

If you were to ask me what denomination I am
I would say I am Constitutionalist. I have joined
a Unitarian Universalist fellowship that is older conservative
type progressives, who have both secular progressive interests
but come from old school backgrounds and are not into rejecting Christianity or God.
So we don't argue about that, but are trying to work out ways to
formulate solutions and share these through the peace and justice community.

Whatever this belief in peace and justice is, that is what
I consider the secular equivalent of Christ Jesus as Restorative Justice.

So I have the same faith as a Christian who uses the Bible
but I explain and express it in Constitutional terms: secular terms of Restorative
Justice and "democratic due process" to establish Equal Justice
Under Law by free choice and CONSENSUS on law (not by force of law or coercion).

I would say I came out as a Constitutionalist,
(and have regretted it ever since, it is too much work
trying to enforce a sense of equal respect and protections of all people equally,
who insist on abusing and treating each other unequally, very hard if not impossible
in a politically divided bullying environment that rewards people for blaming not correcting problems)

There you go again, talking about interpreting the Bible. If one can read it in their native language, no interpretation is required. It's message is so simple a child can understand it. I just don't understand why you think God requires help to get His message across. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? I'm not trying to belittle your beliefs. I just don't understand them. I'm not sure I want to. Gods word will not return void. It is sufficient to the task at hand. It does not need to be "translated".

Dear Lutroo
When Jesus used farming parables to share the Kingdom of God
with ILLITERATE farmers, didn't Jesus EXPLAIN using mustard seeds
and how plants or weeds grow. Jesus EXPLAINED we should be
like the lilies in the field. So Jesus didn't cite the same scriptures
as used to argue with Pharisees in the temples who were under those laws.

Isn't that like taking CONCEPTS of God and the Kingdom of God
and the PROCESS of spiritual growth and Explaining the CONCEPTS
using real life examples or PARABLES from real life that people relate to?

Here's an example of modern parables I've used:

a. comparing Christianity with water
People often blame religions or Christianity for mass destruction they caused by religious wars and abuse.
People who can't forgive don't credit the good that Christian faith, belief or practice has done to save lives,
but only focus on the bad, and condemn it. Some even say to get rid of Christianity and religion as bad.

So I compare with water and with oceans.
Without water and oceans we cannot live.
But when oceans produce huge floods, hurricanes or tsunamis
the same Nature that gives us life brings great destruction and death.
The forces can produce catastrophic disasters without mercy or without "fault of the victims."

Do we blame the ocean. Do we curse Nature?
Or do we FORGIVE and accept the good with the bad.
So this is a parable that explains why it isn't fair
to blame Christianity but to look at the greater "force of good"
and lives saved by this faith, not just the death caused when things turn destructive.

b. comparing the killing and return of Jesus with an antivirus program
when people ask why would Jesus need to be sacrificed.
What loving God would do this and then punish people for not understanding or believing.

I have explained this using the parable of a computer system filled with viruses
so bad that it cannot be saved by anything already on the computer. The solution is to download an antivirus program that can clean out all the corruption. But in order for this to work, it has to be downloaded while the system is on or alive, shut it down and kill the system, then reboot the system back to life WITH the
program entered into it, so that the program can INFILTRATE every file and the entire operating system
to find and clean out every trace of the bugs and viruses.

Similarly Jesus represents perfect Justice sent down from heaven to earth.
And was sacrificed on this human level of worldly existence so that influence/spirit
could rejoin us all with the higher level of collective truth knowledge and laws that God represents as the source of all.

Since Jesus has no debts or sins to pay "back" then
all the good done for the sake of JUSTICE is paid FORWARD.
So that is how the cycle of injustice is broken, by paying forward instead of backwards.

If we don't forgive the past we stay stuck in the past.
If we forgive and work toward healing and corrections in the future,
we rebuild and restore, receive new life and insights/solutions to establish
Truth Justice and Peace that is lasting for all humanity.

So Lutroo when I explain that is the SPIRIT and meaning of the Bible
* to move from Retributive Justice or living by the letter of law in the OT
* to living by the Spirit of the law or Restorative Justice in the NT that Christ Jesus represents
then people can understand this is a POSITIVE CHANGE to unite in Christ Jesus.

They no longer fear the Bible means punishment and negative forces, like a tsunami,
but understand the love of God is more like the ocean that provides water and life for all humanity.

Oh boy! I can just see you, trying to use this approach with a tribe of cannibals and trying to explain the Lords Supper to them.

Yes Lutroo the cannibals live by their own laws. They are banned from eating relatives.
Whatever tribal laws they enforce for others are enforced for them.
That is the Golden Rule.

 

[Lutroo]

You cannot pay for your own sins. That's why Jesus decided to do it. That's Gospel one oh one. For by grace are ye saved. Not of works, lest any man should boast. There is nothing you can do to save yourself. This is a fact. You cannot earn your way to Heaven. This is why Jesus died in our place. It stands to reason if we could save ourselves, Jesus would not have had to die. Would He?

It is not a fact. It is a belief.

No reason why it can't be both.

You haven't stated a single fact in your paragraph above. You've only stated your beliefs as though they are facts, and then you state your beliefs are facts. Nope.

If one assumes that the Bible is the word of God, then what I have stated is fact. If you don't even believe in God, then what are you doing here? What do you hope to accomplish? Or are you simply trolling?

Assumptions aren't facts either.

I guess I can agree with that. After all, I assumed you had a functioning brain. My bad.

 

[emilynghiem]

You cannot pay for your own sins. That's why Jesus decided to do it. That's Gospel one oh one. For by grace are ye saved. Not of works, lest any man should boast. There is nothing you can do to save yourself. This is a fact. You cannot earn your way to Heaven. This is why Jesus died in our place. It stands to reason if we could save ourselves, Jesus would not have had to die. Would He?

It is not a fact. It is a belief.

No reason why it can't be both.

You haven't stated a single fact in your paragraph above. You've only stated your beliefs as though they are facts, and then you state your beliefs are facts. Nope.

If one assumes that the Bible is the word of God, then what I have stated is fact. If you don't even believe in God, then what are you doing here? What do you hope to accomplish? Or are you simply trolling?

Assumptions aren't facts either.

Dear Tilly it can be a "fact" that scientific studies show that
* unforgiveness "correlates" with poorer health and 86% of illness linked indirectly to forgiveness
whether causal or correlated only
* forgiveness "correlates" with better health and in some cases "miraculous cure" of incurable diseases
(again whether causal or correlated only)

Because this cannot be proven as causal relations, only correlated,
it remains FAITH BASED that forgiveness is tied with healing and recovery.
But the FACTS show that forgiveness CORRELATES with it
and that no cases of "unforgiveness" have yielded the positive results that "forgiveness" has.

Studies will show the results. But the connection is still faith based.
Like dreams: studies can show scientifically when the brain goes into dream states.
but the content and "meaning" of the dreams is all faith based, and can't be proven.

All people I know follow a process of spiritual growth, recovery and healing toward "justice and peace."
We could prove this statistically through social sciences.
But how this process is represented through the Bible is FAITH BASED.
We could prove we agree on truth and justice, and those concepts remain faith based.

 

[Lutroo]

Oh b

Interesting -- so you went into it voluntarily as a free choice?

Would you care to explain why? And concurrently -- and I know like all religion questions this is a personal question and you need not address it --- would you care to share what kind of tradition/indoctrination you left behind to get there?

Oh boy this gets deep Pogo
I went into it with nothing, my mother and father came from a Vietnamese Buddhist background
and gave all the kids a choice to adopt what we believed made sense, to try to do right and good things
and try to avoid bad things that cause problems and suffereing. To take responsibility to do the best job possible. So practical ethics. My personal take on this is "what makes people happy" because if something is causing a problem or suffering "people make it clear they aren't happy" So you can use that as a gauge.

I had a spiritual experience in 1990 and then I saw that both the paths in Buddhism from the East and Christianity from the West were merging in fulfillment of peace and justice on earth. I had a vision that
is what the Bible represented, but I'd never read it. I had to start studying it to "interpret" the symbolism
and figure out the spiritual process and patterns that are represented there.

Same with Buddhism so I could TRY to communicate with my mom. (she does better with monks who explain it using Buddhism in ways I learn from them and cannot figure out myself)

And now with Constitutional language so I can communicate with people of diverse religious and political beliefs who all use Constitutional principles to protect and defend their interests as a common language or law.

If you were to ask me what denomination I am
I would say I am Constitutionalist. I have joined
a Unitarian Universalist fellowship that is older conservative
type progressives, who have both secular progressive interests
but come from old school backgrounds and are not into rejecting Christianity or God.
So we don't argue about that, but are trying to work out ways to
formulate solutions and share these through the peace and justice community.

Whatever this belief in peace and justice is, that is what
I consider the secular equivalent of Christ Jesus as Restorative Justice.

So I have the same faith as a Christian who uses the Bible
but I explain and express it in Constitutional terms: secular terms of Restorative
Justice and "democratic due process" to establish Equal Justice
Under Law by free choice and CONSENSUS on law (not by force of law or coercion).

I would say I came out as a Constitutionalist,
(and have regretted it ever since, it is too much work
trying to enforce a sense of equal respect and protections of all people equally,
who insist on abusing and treating each other unequally, very hard if not impossible
in a politically divided bullying environment that rewards people for blaming not correcting problems)

There you go again, talking about interpreting the Bible. If one can read it in their native language, no interpretation is required. It's message is so simple a child can understand it. I just don't understand why you think God requires help to get His message across. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? I'm not trying to belittle your beliefs. I just don't understand them. I'm not sure I want to. Gods word will not return void. It is sufficient to the task at hand. It does not need to be "translated".

Dear Lutroo
When Jesus used farming parables to share the Kingdom of God
with ILLITERATE farmers, didn't Jesus EXPLAIN using mustard seeds
and how plants or weeds grow. Jesus EXPLAINED we should be
like the lilies in the field. So Jesus didn't cite the same scriptures
as used to argue with Pharisees in the temples who were under those laws.

Isn't that like taking CONCEPTS of God and the Kingdom of God
and the PROCESS of spiritual growth and Explaining the CONCEPTS
using real life examples or PARABLES from real life that people relate to?

Here's an example of modern parables I've used:

a. comparing Christianity with water
People often blame religions or Christianity for mass destruction they caused by religious wars and abuse.
People who can't forgive don't credit the good that Christian faith, belief or practice has done to save lives,
but only focus on the bad, and condemn it. Some even say to get rid of Christianity and religion as bad.

So I compare with water and with oceans.
Without water and oceans we cannot live.
But when oceans produce huge floods, hurricanes or tsunamis
the same Nature that gives us life brings great destruction and death.
The forces can produce catastrophic disasters without mercy or without "fault of the victims."

Do we blame the ocean. Do we curse Nature?
Or do we FORGIVE and accept the good with the bad.
So this is a parable that explains why it isn't fair
to blame Christianity but to look at the greater "force of good"
and lives saved by this faith, not just the death caused when things turn destructive.

b. comparing the killing and return of Jesus with an antivirus program
when people ask why would Jesus need to be sacrificed.
What loving God would do this and then punish people for not understanding or believing.

I have explained this using the parable of a computer system filled with viruses
so bad that it cannot be saved by anything already on the computer. The solution is to download an antivirus program that can clean out all the corruption. But in order for this to work, it has to be downloaded while the system is on or alive, shut it down and kill the system, then reboot the system back to life WITH the
program entered into it, so that the program can INFILTRATE every file and the entire operating system
to find and clean out every trace of the bugs and viruses.

Similarly Jesus represents perfect Justice sent down from heaven to earth.
And was sacrificed on this human level of worldly existence so that influence/spirit
could rejoin us all with the higher level of collective truth knowledge and laws that God represents as the source of all.

Since Jesus has no debts or sins to pay "back" then
all the good done for the sake of JUSTICE is paid FORWARD.
So that is how the cycle of injustice is broken, by paying forward instead of backwards.

If we don't forgive the past we stay stuck in the past.
If we forgive and work toward healing and corrections in the future,
we rebuild and restore, receive new life and insights/solutions to establish
Truth Justice and Peace that is lasting for all humanity.

So Lutroo when I explain that is the SPIRIT and meaning of the Bible
* to move from Retributive Justice or living by the letter of law in the OT
* to living by the Spirit of the law or Restorative Justice in the NT that Christ Jesus represents
then people can understand this is a POSITIVE CHANGE to unite in Christ Jesus.

They no longer fear the Bible means punishment and negative forces, like a tsunami,
but understand the love of God is more like the ocean that provides water and life for all humanity.

Oh boy! I can just see you, trying to use this approach with a tribe of cannibals and trying to explain the Lords Supper to them.

Yes Lutroo the cannibals live by their own laws. They are banned from eating relatives.
Whatever tribal laws they enforce for others are enforced for them.
That is the Golden Rule.

Another attempt at humor falls flat on it's face. Cannibals? Lords supper? Get it now?

 

[Tilly]

It is not a fact. It is a belief.

No reason why it can't be both.

You haven't stated a single fact in your paragraph above. You've only stated your beliefs as though they are facts, and then you state your beliefs are facts. Nope.

If one assumes that the Bible is the word of God, then what I have stated is fact. If you don't even believe in God, then what are you doing here? What do you hope to accomplish? Or are you simply trolling?

Assumptions aren't facts either.

I guess I can agree with that. After all, I assumed you had a functioning brain. My bad.

You're the one with the brain that can't separate beliefs from facts.

 

[Lutroo]

It is not a fact. It is a belief.

No reason why it can't be both.

You haven't stated a single fact in your paragraph above. You've only stated your beliefs as though they are facts, and then you state your beliefs are facts. Nope.

If one assumes that the Bible is the word of God, then what I have stated is fact. If you don't even believe in God, then what are you doing here? What do you hope to accomplish? Or are you simply trolling?

Assumptions aren't facts either.

Dear Tilly it can be a "fact" that scientific studies show that
* unforgiveness "correlates" with poorer health and 86% of illness linked indirectly to forgiveness
whether causal or correlated only
* forgiveness "correlates" with better health and in some cases "miraculous cure" of incurable diseases
(again whether causal or correlated only)

Because this cannot be proven as causal relations, only correlated,
it remains FAITH BASED that forgiveness is tied with healing and recovery.
But the FACTS show that forgiveness CORRELATES with it
and that no cases of "unforgiveness" have yielded the positive results that "forgiveness" has.

Studies will show the results. But the connection is still faith based.
Like dreams: studies can show scientifically when the brain goes into dream states.
but the content and "meaning" of the dreams is all faith based, and can't be proven.

All people I know follow a process of spiritual growth, recovery and healing toward "justice and peace."
We could prove this statistically through social sciences.
But how this process is represented through the Bible is FAITH BASED.
We could prove we agree on truth and justice, and those concepts remain faith based.

But it HAS been proven that stress can cause illness. Not forgiving is a cause of stress, is it not? Forgiveness relieves that stress. There is your scientific link.

 

[hobelim]

Redemption—the most important of all gospel truths—is at once the sweetest note in the song of Bible believers and a favorite target for the derision of Bible deniers. It offends the pride of fallen men to learn that they need to be redeemed, but it rejoices the souls of regenerate men to know their need has been graciously met.

And this is why the Gospel of Christ is so hated by many. They hate it because they refuse to admit that they are not good enough to make it to Heaven on their own. They will come up with all kinds of excuses, but the root cause is PRIDE. Always has been. Always will be.

Many will even tell you that they do not believe in God. This is not so, for the most part. Sure, there are those who have not made up their minds yet. But others have.

These unregenerate souls have rejected God, and the sacrifice that His Son made for us. These people are to be pitied above all others, because having known Christ, they have spit in His face and rejected the most precious gift ever offered. The gift of REDEMPTION.

Today is the day of Salvation.

If you are not saved, and would like to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, it is very simple to do.

First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.

Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.

Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you. And here is how you do this. The words aren't really that important. It is your intent that matters. It goes something like this.

Redemption is not about reciting a few lines.


What good is saying that you accept Jesus as your savior if you do not understand what he taught or how to comply with his instruction?

For example, Jesus said, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you can have no life in you"

If you really are saved, how does one eat his flesh and drink his blood?

What is his flesh? What is his blood?

I'll give you credit for not trolling, and assume you're serious about this. It would take you five minutes to find several scholarly articles about this. Google is your friend. And finally, redemption is nothing more, or less, than the realization that one is a sinner, combined with the act of repentance. The rest is gravy.

I should google the answer? You started the post. I asked you a specific question foundational to salvation.

You could have just said that you didn't know.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"The most loved word, and also the most hated."

Nonsense.

 

[Lutroo]

Redemption—the most important of all gospel truths—is at once the sweetest note in the song of Bible believers and a favorite target for the derision of Bible deniers. It offends the pride of fallen men to learn that they need to be redeemed, but it rejoices the souls of regenerate men to know their need has been graciously met.

And this is why the Gospel of Christ is so hated by many. They hate it because they refuse to admit that they are not good enough to make it to Heaven on their own. They will come up with all kinds of excuses, but the root cause is PRIDE. Always has been. Always will be.

Many will even tell you that they do not believe in God. This is not so, for the most part. Sure, there are those who have not made up their minds yet. But others have.

These unregenerate souls have rejected God, and the sacrifice that His Son made for us. These people are to be pitied above all others, because having known Christ, they have spit in His face and rejected the most precious gift ever offered. The gift of REDEMPTION.

Today is the day of Salvation.

If you are not saved, and would like to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, it is very simple to do.

First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.

Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.

Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you. And here is how you do this. The words aren't really that important. It is your intent that matters. It goes something like this.

Redemption is not about reciting a few lines.


What good is saying that you accept Jesus as your savior if you do not understand what he taught or how to comply with his instruction?

For example, Jesus said, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you can have no life in you"

If you really are saved, how does one eat his flesh and drink his blood?

What is his flesh? What is his blood?

I'll give you credit for not trolling, and assume you're serious about this. It would take you five minutes to find several scholarly articles about this. Google is your friend. And finally, redemption is nothing more, or less, than the realization that one is a sinner, combined with the act of repentance. The rest is gravy.

I should google the answer? You started the post. I asked you a specific question foundational to salvation.

You could have just said that you didn't know.

So you were actually serious? If so, I really do apologize. I thought your reply was patronizing. Perhaps I read too much into it. It's just the sort of thing someone might post in order to mock Christianity. But I will say that you should learn to use Google to search these thing for yourself. You shouldn't rely on the word of anyone else. Read the Bible, and pray. That's your best bet. You should start every session with a prayer, asking Gods Holy Spirit to guide you. This works even if you are not a Christian, but are truly seeking to know God. He will hear and answer that prayer.

Anyway, to answer your question, I believe this does a very good job. Again. Sorry for the confusion. I really thought you were being sarcastic. You have taught me a valuable lesson. I should take people at face value, until it is clear that I shouldn't. It's easy to become jaded sometimes and believe the worst of people. Anyway, here's that link.
What Jesus Meant When He Said “You Must Eat My Flesh” | Desiring God

 

[emilynghiem]

No reason why it can't be both.

You haven't stated a single fact in your paragraph above. You've only stated your beliefs as though they are facts, and then you state your beliefs are facts. Nope.

If one assumes that the Bible is the word of God, then what I have stated is fact. If you don't even believe in God, then what are you doing here? What do you hope to accomplish? Or are you simply trolling?

Assumptions aren't facts either.

Dear Tilly it can be a "fact" that scientific studies show that
* unforgiveness "correlates" with poorer health and 86% of illness linked indirectly to forgiveness
whether causal or correlated only
* forgiveness "correlates" with better health and in some cases "miraculous cure" of incurable diseases
(again whether causal or correlated only)

Because this cannot be proven as causal relations, only correlated,
it remains FAITH BASED that forgiveness is tied with healing and recovery.
But the FACTS show that forgiveness CORRELATES with it
and that no cases of "unforgiveness" have yielded the positive results that "forgiveness" has.

Studies will show the results. But the connection is still faith based.
Like dreams: studies can show scientifically when the brain goes into dream states.
but the content and "meaning" of the dreams is all faith based, and can't be proven.

All people I know follow a process of spiritual growth, recovery and healing toward "justice and peace."
We could prove this statistically through social sciences.
But how this process is represented through the Bible is FAITH BASED.
We could prove we agree on truth and justice, and those concepts remain faith based.

But it HAS been proven that stress can cause illness. Not forgiving is a cause of stress, is it not? Forgiveness relieves that stress. There is your scientific link.

Yes I'm glad we agree on that Lutroo
But what I'm ALSO saying is the choice to forgive remains faith based.
People still have to make that leap in faith that forgiveness will bring improved conditions AFTERWARDS.
it is not proven in advance. We forgive on faith, and then we receive the blessings after.

We can prove this process works over and over, but in each case
it is still faith based if it is going to be the better choice the next time.

Just like gravity is proven to work in practice, but is still a THEORY.

 

[emilynghiem]

Oh b

Oh boy this gets deep Pogo
I went into it with nothing, my mother and father came from a Vietnamese Buddhist background
and gave all the kids a choice to adopt what we believed made sense, to try to do right and good things
and try to avoid bad things that cause problems and suffereing. To take responsibility to do the best job possible. So practical ethics. My personal take on this is "what makes people happy" because if something is causing a problem or suffering "people make it clear they aren't happy" So you can use that as a gauge.

I had a spiritual experience in 1990 and then I saw that both the paths in Buddhism from the East and Christianity from the West were merging in fulfillment of peace and justice on earth. I had a vision that
is what the Bible represented, but I'd never read it. I had to start studying it to "interpret" the symbolism
and figure out the spiritual process and patterns that are represented there.

Same with Buddhism so I could TRY to communicate with my mom. (she does better with monks who explain it using Buddhism in ways I learn from them and cannot figure out myself)

And now with Constitutional language so I can communicate with people of diverse religious and political beliefs who all use Constitutional principles to protect and defend their interests as a common language or law.

If you were to ask me what denomination I am
I would say I am Constitutionalist. I have joined
a Unitarian Universalist fellowship that is older conservative
type progressives, who have both secular progressive interests
but come from old school backgrounds and are not into rejecting Christianity or God.
So we don't argue about that, but are trying to work out ways to
formulate solutions and share these through the peace and justice community.

Whatever this belief in peace and justice is, that is what
I consider the secular equivalent of Christ Jesus as Restorative Justice.

So I have the same faith as a Christian who uses the Bible
but I explain and express it in Constitutional terms: secular terms of Restorative
Justice and "democratic due process" to establish Equal Justice
Under Law by free choice and CONSENSUS on law (not by force of law or coercion).

I would say I came out as a Constitutionalist,
(and have regretted it ever since, it is too much work
trying to enforce a sense of equal respect and protections of all people equally,
who insist on abusing and treating each other unequally, very hard if not impossible
in a politically divided bullying environment that rewards people for blaming not correcting problems)

There you go again, talking about interpreting the Bible. If one can read it in their native language, no interpretation is required. It's message is so simple a child can understand it. I just don't understand why you think God requires help to get His message across. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? I'm not trying to belittle your beliefs. I just don't understand them. I'm not sure I want to. Gods word will not return void. It is sufficient to the task at hand. It does not need to be "translated".

Dear Lutroo
When Jesus used farming parables to share the Kingdom of God
with ILLITERATE farmers, didn't Jesus EXPLAIN using mustard seeds
and how plants or weeds grow. Jesus EXPLAINED we should be
like the lilies in the field. So Jesus didn't cite the same scriptures
as used to argue with Pharisees in the temples who were under those laws.

Isn't that like taking CONCEPTS of God and the Kingdom of God
and the PROCESS of spiritual growth and Explaining the CONCEPTS
using real life examples or PARABLES from real life that people relate to?

Here's an example of modern parables I've used:

a. comparing Christianity with water
People often blame religions or Christianity for mass destruction they caused by religious wars and abuse.
People who can't forgive don't credit the good that Christian faith, belief or practice has done to save lives,
but only focus on the bad, and condemn it. Some even say to get rid of Christianity and religion as bad.

So I compare with water and with oceans.
Without water and oceans we cannot live.
But when oceans produce huge floods, hurricanes or tsunamis
the same Nature that gives us life brings great destruction and death.
The forces can produce catastrophic disasters without mercy or without "fault of the victims."

Do we blame the ocean. Do we curse Nature?
Or do we FORGIVE and accept the good with the bad.
So this is a parable that explains why it isn't fair
to blame Christianity but to look at the greater "force of good"
and lives saved by this faith, not just the death caused when things turn destructive.

b. comparing the killing and return of Jesus with an antivirus program
when people ask why would Jesus need to be sacrificed.
What loving God would do this and then punish people for not understanding or believing.

I have explained this using the parable of a computer system filled with viruses
so bad that it cannot be saved by anything already on the computer. The solution is to download an antivirus program that can clean out all the corruption. But in order for this to work, it has to be downloaded while the system is on or alive, shut it down and kill the system, then reboot the system back to life WITH the
program entered into it, so that the program can INFILTRATE every file and the entire operating system
to find and clean out every trace of the bugs and viruses.

Similarly Jesus represents perfect Justice sent down from heaven to earth.
And was sacrificed on this human level of worldly existence so that influence/spirit
could rejoin us all with the higher level of collective truth knowledge and laws that God represents as the source of all.

Since Jesus has no debts or sins to pay "back" then
all the good done for the sake of JUSTICE is paid FORWARD.
So that is how the cycle of injustice is broken, by paying forward instead of backwards.

If we don't forgive the past we stay stuck in the past.
If we forgive and work toward healing and corrections in the future,
we rebuild and restore, receive new life and insights/solutions to establish
Truth Justice and Peace that is lasting for all humanity.

So Lutroo when I explain that is the SPIRIT and meaning of the Bible
* to move from Retributive Justice or living by the letter of law in the OT
* to living by the Spirit of the law or Restorative Justice in the NT that Christ Jesus represents
then people can understand this is a POSITIVE CHANGE to unite in Christ Jesus.

They no longer fear the Bible means punishment and negative forces, like a tsunami,
but understand the love of God is more like the ocean that provides water and life for all humanity.

Oh boy! I can just see you, trying to use this approach with a tribe of cannibals and trying to explain the Lords Supper to them.

Yes Lutroo the cannibals live by their own laws. They are banned from eating relatives.
Whatever tribal laws they enforce for others are enforced for them.
That is the Golden Rule.

Another attempt at humor falls flat on it's face. Cannibals? Lords supper? Get it now?

Oh okay sorry missed that Lutroo

I never got why people took the communion ritual literally to mean eating the Lord's flesh?
I thought that was clearly symbolic.

I can understand the bread representing the body of laws
and the wine/water representing the spirit of the laws.

Sorry I missed your joke on this, it's quite charming now that I get it!
Cheers! I mean, drink this in remembrance not to take everything too seriously...

 

[Lutroo]

You haven't stated a single fact in your paragraph above. You've only stated your beliefs as though they are facts, and then you state your beliefs are facts. Nope.

If one assumes that the Bible is the word of God, then what I have stated is fact. If you don't even believe in God, then what are you doing here? What do you hope to accomplish? Or are you simply trolling?

Assumptions aren't facts either.

Dear Tilly it can be a "fact" that scientific studies show that
* unforgiveness "correlates" with poorer health and 86% of illness linked indirectly to forgiveness
whether causal or correlated only
* forgiveness "correlates" with better health and in some cases "miraculous cure" of incurable diseases
(again whether causal or correlated only)

Because this cannot be proven as causal relations, only correlated,
it remains FAITH BASED that forgiveness is tied with healing and recovery.
But the FACTS show that forgiveness CORRELATES with it
and that no cases of "unforgiveness" have yielded the positive results that "forgiveness" has.

Studies will show the results. But the connection is still faith based.
Like dreams: studies can show scientifically when the brain goes into dream states.
but the content and "meaning" of the dreams is all faith based, and can't be proven.

All people I know follow a process of spiritual growth, recovery and healing toward "justice and peace."
We could prove this statistically through social sciences.
But how this process is represented through the Bible is FAITH BASED.
We could prove we agree on truth and justice, and those concepts remain faith based.

But it HAS been proven that stress can cause illness. Not forgiving is a cause of stress, is it not? Forgiveness relieves that stress. There is your scientific link.

Yes I'm glad we agree on that Lutroo
But what I'm ALSO saying is the choice to forgive remains faith based.
People still have to make that leap in faith that forgiveness will bring improved conditions AFTERWARDS.
it is not proven in advance. We forgive on faith, and then we receive the blessings after.

We can prove this process works over and over, but in each case
it is still faith based if it is going to be the better choice the next time.

Just like gravity is proven to work in practice, but is still a THEORY.

You know what? Sometimes, my joints really wish that gravity didn't work quite so well.:/

 

[emilynghiem]

If one assumes that the Bible is the word of God, then what I have stated is fact. If you don't even believe in God, then what are you doing here? What do you hope to accomplish? Or are you simply trolling?

Assumptions aren't facts either.

Dear Tilly it can be a "fact" that scientific studies show that
* unforgiveness "correlates" with poorer health and 86% of illness linked indirectly to forgiveness
whether causal or correlated only
* forgiveness "correlates" with better health and in some cases "miraculous cure" of incurable diseases
(again whether causal or correlated only)

Because this cannot be proven as causal relations, only correlated,
it remains FAITH BASED that forgiveness is tied with healing and recovery.
But the FACTS show that forgiveness CORRELATES with it
and that no cases of "unforgiveness" have yielded the positive results that "forgiveness" has.

Studies will show the results. But the connection is still faith based.
Like dreams: studies can show scientifically when the brain goes into dream states.
but the content and "meaning" of the dreams is all faith based, and can't be proven.

All people I know follow a process of spiritual growth, recovery and healing toward "justice and peace."
We could prove this statistically through social sciences.
But how this process is represented through the Bible is FAITH BASED.
We could prove we agree on truth and justice, and those concepts remain faith based.

But it HAS been proven that stress can cause illness. Not forgiving is a cause of stress, is it not? Forgiveness relieves that stress. There is your scientific link.

Yes I'm glad we agree on that Lutroo
But what I'm ALSO saying is the choice to forgive remains faith based.
People still have to make that leap in faith that forgiveness will bring improved conditions AFTERWARDS.
it is not proven in advance. We forgive on faith, and then we receive the blessings after.

We can prove this process works over and over, but in each case
it is still faith based if it is going to be the better choice the next time.

Just like gravity is proven to work in practice, but is still a THEORY.

You know what? Sometimes, my joints really wish that gravity didn't work quite so well.:/

<smiles> yes, and my body weight is growing to agree more with that over the years.

My favorite parable about the laws of gravity is to explain the laws of healing, and why healing works or doesn't work.

The same laws that allow the books to stay sitting on the shelf correctly (when the shelf is flat)
allow the same books to fall to the floor (when the shelf is slanted downward).
Just because the shelf works in one case but not the other
doesn't mean the laws of gravity "aren't true" real or consistent, it's how we use them.