The most loved word, and also the most hated.

[emilynghiem]

Penelope and Pogo
When a rapist doesn't forgive the past, the sins and demons can be dumped on an innocent victim. Look at victims of war, from chemical weapons or terrorism, or toxic waste they didn't cause -- people pay all the time for the sins and wrongs of others.

The point of praying for redemption in Christ is to break this cycle collectively for all humanity, which no individual has the power to do on our own. It takes greater grace and power to heal the sickness that causes people to abuse, terrorize, violate and kill others because they are still carrying issues from the past and projecting these forward until they get help.

The point is the vicious cycle of sin and karma repeats and projects forward
IF WE DO NOT FORGIVE AND HEAL THE SICKNESS OF THE PAST.

Yes, our children and future generations pay, and carry the debts, if we do not correct and fix our problems.
Karma - cause and effect.
We can either live by retributive justice, like the mad rapist or terrorists who makes others pay,
or we can live by Restorative Justice which is what Christ Jesus represents and brings to establish on earth.
Through forgiveness, we receive this higher peace and justice by forgiving first and then wrongs can be righted second as a consequence.

Maybe you sent it to Guno. I'm not seeing it.

Correct me, if I'm mistaken, but your question was why do people hate it? I answered that in the OP. You might want to take another look at it, assuming you read it in the first place.

I read it, and it made no sense. It's a strawman comprised of petulance and putting words in other people's mouths. Thought maybe you could support your point.

Guess not. You'd have to abandon the whole binary-thinking division thing. Can't have that.

Sorry to hear that you lack the intelligence to understand what I was getting at. I tried to dumb it down for people like you. I guess I'll have to use words of fewer syllables, or something. You might want to consider some remedial reading classes. I hear that they can really help.

Dear Lutroo
Pogo is extremely intelligent, reasonable and willing to discuss in great detail.
But it helps if you both are speaking the same language.
This Biblical/Christian cultural tradition is like a "foreign tongue"
You are speaking with a secular gentile who responds to God's
"natural laws of science and reason"; it helps to explain in practical terms, not symbolic.
The Bible comes across as symbolic to people who don't follow all of that.

It isn't that Pogo is dumb, closeminded, or has ego issues
because I have seen that is not the case with Pogo.
Maybe other people, but with Pogo, generally not.

I can help you translate back and forth, between secular
explanation and Christian/Biblical equivalents of the same concept.

It is more a language/cultural barrier that shapes our whole thinking.
Our ways of understanding are more attached to words and personal/emotional
experienced associated with words, so it can take several layers of
working through in order to get what each other means by where we are coming from.

It is not "dumbing things down" to spell them out in secular terms.
It's actually quite challenging and requires much patience
and intellectual agility to translate back and forth.

Remember the Bible says that if two people are talking in tongues,
let a third interpret. I can try to help with some of that, but it is up to
you and Pogo if the equivalents and meaning are close enough,
or if the communication and concepts still aren't coming across clearly.

Do you want to give it a try, Pogo is very sharp and willing to
reason things out. At least you both are honest, and if you just
don't get what each other is saying, you'll admit that. Can we try?

I don't see why any translation is necessary. Gods truths are universal. Anyone can understand what is written in Gods word. I believe that I was perfectly clear in what I said. It needs no translation. My original post is simple enough for a child to understand. I believe that Pogo's problem is the result of willful ignorance.

Lutroo
Well I've found the opposite, Lutroo.
I have found that it is much more effective to translate
the concepts into terms that people have experienced.
The number one way is to use their own words and terms
to show how they do or don't follow their own principles.

If you rebuke a Constitutionalist using their own laws,
that is much easier to get a point across!

If a Muslim is contradicting Mohammad's teachings,
then if you explain that way, they tend to accept the rebuke
because they committed to following God's laws taught in that language.

You'd be surprised, Lutroo the difference it makes.

When I couldn't explain forgiveness to my mother, who is Buddhist,
she later got the "equivalent" concept when a monk explained it as:
no matter if people are good or bad to you, you don't respond to them
badly and repeat what they did, or that's on you not on them.
You are still responsible that YOU do the right thing.
So you show compassion and wisdom toward others, regardless
if they show that to you, ie whether they are good or bad.
So that is the way to explain it where even SHE understood
why it is important to forgive. Or it tempts you do bad things in return!

Inclusion of diversity is another way of indirectly saying to forgive differences.
I have not found ANYONE who could be "truly inclusive" without being FORGIVING.

Do you like the explanation that God has many names?
Jesus also is manifested as either SALVATION or JUSTICE.

So if you teach and explain in those terms, then people
can understand the ideal that Jesus represents is
Equal Justice Under Law. or Restorative Justice.

This helps more people recognize why Jesus represents
something so important and universal to all humanity collectively and inclusively.

 

[Lutroo]

Fell asleep at the second paragraph waiting for a point, but lemme sum it up for you very simply:

Version one:
Version two:
See the difference?

Me neither.

These are the seeds of Intolerance.

Hi Pogo Let me translate into secular terms and natural laws
1. IF You continue the way of RETRIBUTION
then if you live by the sword you die by the sword
You get the justice you give.
So if you do not let go and forgive the wrongs of others,
these repeat and all humanity suffers them again and again.
We all suffer war which is hell on earth

2. IF we chose the path of Restorative Justice
which is the secular name and meaning of the spirit of Christ Jesus
THEN we forgive one another and correct wrongs together.
We bring new life and heal relations and can rebuild.

So that is the path, the choices in life.

No, you don't have to rely on Biblical/Christian terms
which I don't relate to either. I understand these in
terms of what they MEAN, and this meaning
and process is UNIVERSAL to all humanity,
both Jews/Christians/Believers under the church/scriptural laws and authority
AND the "secular Gentiles" like you and me under NATURAL laws of
reason, science and what solves problems in the REAL WORLD.

The meaning is universal, the symbolic language is relative.
We are not responsible for if we can't follow "foreign languages"
that don't make sense to us.

But the UNIVERSAL LAWS they represent,
we are responsible for as human beings who are
supposed to live in peace and by equal justice
if we are going to survive in the longrun. That part IS our responsibility
socially and collectively, which is what these religions attempt to
symbolize represent and teach using figurative language

That's a lot of wind to blow away the phrases I highlighted, which was, again, "YOU MUST". That's a kind of rhetorical fascism, which is why I observe at the end, "these are the seeds of Intolerance". It begins with this binary declaration of "us and them" and "us" is right and "them" is wrong, and "our" way is the only way... "you must".

That's one level -- the verbs and the control-freakism. The inability to accept that, not to sound cliché, "there are many paths" and that someone else may just choose a different one, and that's none of his business.

Concerning his self-congratulatory exegesis on the concept of "redemption", putting words into the mouths of others he didn't bother to ask, the idea is not only a strawman but absurd on its face. For an example, America's very national pastime -- baseball -- is based around the concept. No one who appreciates the poetry of baseball "hates" the idea. It could hardly exist without it. Redemption is the flip side of forgiveness. We can't exist without them either.

That's why I posed the question on an absurd premise.

OK. Let's back track. Do you believe in God? By God, I mean the Creator of everything. The power that all of existence depends on? We need to find a common thread to hang any discussion on. So answer this simple yes or no question, then we can proceed.

I've heard the argument made that goes "look at all this around you -- the sky, the trees, the birds, the stars.... isn't it obvious that some entity had to purposely create this?"

Well as a matter of fact..... no, it isn't.

Dear Pogo are you okay with just
equating Nature = God.

We don't have to agree what created Nature
any more than we have to agree what created God.

What is the highest level of life or truth about how the world works
that you recognize? Do you call this universal laws or
laws of Nature? What do you call this and it doesn't have to
be a creator or person.

Do you believe there is universal truth, a collective
body of all knowledge? Do you believe in a higher Justice
that all humanity answers to? What do you call the
source of Truth, Justice, Life or love in the world?

Whatever is the highest "default" level that is what
God represents. What is the absolute in your terms?

I believe that God created the universe and everything in it. I believe that man was created as a perfect being, in harmony with his Creator. I believe that man sinned and was separated from God. I believe that God loved us so much, that He gave us a way out. He sent His only Son to pay the price for sin, so that we wouldn't have to. God, through His Son Jesus Christ, offered every man woman and child the free gift of Salvation. All we have to do is take it. There is nothing we can do to earn this gift. It is freely given. All one must do is to admit that they have sinned, and accept Jesus as Lord of their life. This is what I believe. It is carved in stone. Nothing anyone can say will ever change my mind about any of it. And this is why so many reject God. They want to be Lords of their own lives. Their stiff necked pride will not allow them to admit that their efforts aren't good enough.They choke on the idea that they have anything to be sorry for. Thus, they reject their Creator. And this is what I said in my original post. This is not my opinion. It is what the Bible teaches.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Pogo
Do you agree that all humans are biased and conditioned to favor or reject things according to what experiences we are born into?

Sure. That makes sense.

So if you had this influence early on and rejected it,
doesn't that show how biases happen. And this makes us treat people as unequal. If you reject Christianity
and have a bias against it, you will not be able to understand and love all people equally. Nobody can!

Maybe I wasn't clear. The bias in my childhood was promoting Christianism, not rejecting it. There was no such thing as rejecting it then. That was verboten. You would "go to hell". (again the old rhetorical fascism -- "you vill think ze prescribed thoughts or else -- ve haf vays") This had to be tucked away, internalized and worked out in the proverbial dead of night, like Winston Smith writing in his diary that he has the right to defy the State and declare that "two plus two equals four".

Yes, what I'm saying is that because of this background,
then YOU are more biased TODAY to rejecting Christianity.

I am more into forgiving false teachings of it, since it was
never forced on me growing up, but I only learned it by
free choice AFTER I went through a spiritual rebirth process.

So my bias tends to be toward including and correcting it,
and forgiving the twisted corruptions abuses and misteaching of it.
All the negatives are less and correctable in light with the good I've seen;
again being biased because I have friends who practice spiritual healing and have
saved lives using this teaching correctly. I have found other
resources that can medically prove these methods works to
heal mental and physical ills by REMOVING generational causes
through forgiveness therapy. So I am biased toward proving this
scientifically so more people have this knowledge and can make
fully informed choices based on what is really taught in Christianity.

 

[Lutroo]

Correct me, if I'm mistaken, but your question was why do people hate it? I answered that in the OP. You might want to take another look at it, assuming you read it in the first place.

I read it, and it made no sense. It's a strawman comprised of petulance and putting words in other people's mouths. Thought maybe you could support your point.

Guess not. You'd have to abandon the whole binary-thinking division thing. Can't have that.

Sorry to hear that you lack the intelligence to understand what I was getting at. I tried to dumb it down for people like you. I guess I'll have to use words of fewer syllables, or something. You might want to consider some remedial reading classes. I hear that they can really help.

Dear Lutroo
Pogo is extremely intelligent, reasonable and willing to discuss in great detail.
But it helps if you both are speaking the same language.
This Biblical/Christian cultural tradition is like a "foreign tongue"
You are speaking with a secular gentile who responds to God's
"natural laws of science and reason"; it helps to explain in practical terms, not symbolic.
The Bible comes across as symbolic to people who don't follow all of that.

It isn't that Pogo is dumb, closeminded, or has ego issues
because I have seen that is not the case with Pogo.
Maybe other people, but with Pogo, generally not.

I can help you translate back and forth, between secular
explanation and Christian/Biblical equivalents of the same concept.

It is more a language/cultural barrier that shapes our whole thinking.
Our ways of understanding are more attached to words and personal/emotional
experienced associated with words, so it can take several layers of
working through in order to get what each other means by where we are coming from.

It is not "dumbing things down" to spell them out in secular terms.
It's actually quite challenging and requires much patience
and intellectual agility to translate back and forth.

Remember the Bible says that if two people are talking in tongues,
let a third interpret. I can try to help with some of that, but it is up to
you and Pogo if the equivalents and meaning are close enough,
or if the communication and concepts still aren't coming across clearly.

Do you want to give it a try, Pogo is very sharp and willing to
reason things out. At least you both are honest, and if you just
don't get what each other is saying, you'll admit that. Can we try?

I don't see why any translation is necessary. Gods truths are universal. Anyone can understand what is written in Gods word. I believe that I was perfectly clear in what I said. It needs no translation. My original post is simple enough for a child to understand. I believe that Pogo's problem is the result of willful ignorance.

Lutroo
Well I've found the opposite, Lutroo.
I have found that it is much more effective to translate
the concepts into terms that people have experienced.
The number one way is to use their own words and terms
to show how they do or don't follow their own principles.

If you rebuke a Constitutionalist using their own laws,
that is much easier to get a point across!

If a Muslim is contradicting Mohammad's teachings,
then if you explain that way, they tend to accept the rebuke
because they committed to following God's laws taught in that language.

You'd be surprised, Lutroo the difference it makes.

When I couldn't explain forgiveness to my mother, who is Buddhist,
she later got the "equivalent" concept when a monk explained it as:
no matter if people are good or bad to you, you don't respond to them
badly and repeat what they did, or that's on you not on them.
You are still responsible that YOU do the right thing.
So you show compassion and wisdom toward others, regardless
if they show that to you, ie whether they are good or bad.
So that is the way to explain it where even SHE understood
why it is important to forgive. Or it tempts you do bad things in return!

Inclusion of diversity is another way of indirectly saying to forgive differences.
I have not found ANYONE who could be "truly inclusive" without being FORGIVING.

Do you like the explanation that God has many names?
Jesus also is manifested as either SALVATION or JUSTICE.

So if you teach and explain in those terms, then people
can understand the ideal that Jesus represents is
Equal Justice Under Law. or Restorative Justice.

This helps more people recognize why Jesus represents
something so important and universal to all humanity collectively and inclusively.

Honestly, it sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me. If someone can read the Bible in their own language, I believe that there is absolutely no barrier to understanding. It doesn't matter what culture they are from. Gods truth transcends all barriers.

 

[Pogo]

Emily --- you have redeemed another thread.

Dear Pogo are you okay with just
equating Nature = God.

We don't have to agree what created Nature
any more than we have to agree what created God.

Sure. In fact that's the closest thing to how I would express it: Nature.
The whole idea of anthropomorphizing a Creator being is itself kind of childishly absurd, and then to make him male is even wackier (if God is "male", who's the female that makes him "male"? When are they gonna have little gods?)

What is the highest level of life or truth about how the world works that you recognize? Do you call this universal laws or laws of Nature? What do you call this and it doesn't have to
be a creator or person.

I like the Tao te Ching. It astounds me in its wisdom. But I don't limit it to that; I like what is revealed in various pagan and animist spiritualites that have evolved, from Druidism to Candomblé. I'll listen to any ideas, and the ones that fit, I'll listen closely. And maybe that's the underlying point --- listening to ideas.

Do you believe there is universal truth, a collective
body of all knowledge? Do you believe in a higher Justice that all humanity answers to? What do you call the
source of Truth, Justice, Life or love in the world?

Not sure what we mean by "truth". The truth is the truth, something I try to champion on these political boards, i.e. "facts" over myths. But this may not be the sense you mean. "Truth", "Justice", "Life" and "Love" are four different things.

Whatever is the highest "default" level that is what God represents. What is the absolute in your terms?

I don't understand this question.

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi Pogo Let me translate into secular terms and natural laws
1. IF You continue the way of RETRIBUTION
then if you live by the sword you die by the sword
You get the justice you give.
So if you do not let go and forgive the wrongs of others,
these repeat and all humanity suffers them again and again.
We all suffer war which is hell on earth

2. IF we chose the path of Restorative Justice
which is the secular name and meaning of the spirit of Christ Jesus
THEN we forgive one another and correct wrongs together.
We bring new life and heal relations and can rebuild.

So that is the path, the choices in life.

No, you don't have to rely on Biblical/Christian terms
which I don't relate to either. I understand these in
terms of what they MEAN, and this meaning
and process is UNIVERSAL to all humanity,
both Jews/Christians/Believers under the church/scriptural laws and authority
AND the "secular Gentiles" like you and me under NATURAL laws of
reason, science and what solves problems in the REAL WORLD.

The meaning is universal, the symbolic language is relative.
We are not responsible for if we can't follow "foreign languages"
that don't make sense to us.

But the UNIVERSAL LAWS they represent,
we are responsible for as human beings who are
supposed to live in peace and by equal justice
if we are going to survive in the longrun. That part IS our responsibility
socially and collectively, which is what these religions attempt to
symbolize represent and teach using figurative language

That's a lot of wind to blow away the phrases I highlighted, which was, again, "YOU MUST". That's a kind of rhetorical fascism, which is why I observe at the end, "these are the seeds of Intolerance". It begins with this binary declaration of "us and them" and "us" is right and "them" is wrong, and "our" way is the only way... "you must".

That's one level -- the verbs and the control-freakism. The inability to accept that, not to sound cliché, "there are many paths" and that someone else may just choose a different one, and that's none of his business.

Concerning his self-congratulatory exegesis on the concept of "redemption", putting words into the mouths of others he didn't bother to ask, the idea is not only a strawman but absurd on its face. For an example, America's very national pastime -- baseball -- is based around the concept. No one who appreciates the poetry of baseball "hates" the idea. It could hardly exist without it. Redemption is the flip side of forgiveness. We can't exist without them either.

That's why I posed the question on an absurd premise.

OK. Let's back track. Do you believe in God? By God, I mean the Creator of everything. The power that all of existence depends on? We need to find a common thread to hang any discussion on. So answer this simple yes or no question, then we can proceed.

I've heard the argument made that goes "look at all this around you -- the sky, the trees, the birds, the stars.... isn't it obvious that some entity had to purposely create this?"

Well as a matter of fact..... no, it isn't.

Dear Pogo are you okay with just
equating Nature = God.

We don't have to agree what created Nature
any more than we have to agree what created God.

What is the highest level of life or truth about how the world works
that you recognize? Do you call this universal laws or
laws of Nature? What do you call this and it doesn't have to
be a creator or person.

Do you believe there is universal truth, a collective
body of all knowledge? Do you believe in a higher Justice
that all humanity answers to? What do you call the
source of Truth, Justice, Life or love in the world?

Whatever is the highest "default" level that is what
God represents. What is the absolute in your terms?

I believe that God created the universe and everything in it. I believe that man was created as a perfect being, in harmony with his Creator. I believe that man sinned and was separated from God. I believe that God loved us so much, that He gave us a way out. He sent His only Son to pay the price for sin, so that we wouldn't have to. God, through His Son Jesus Christ, offered every man woman and child the free gift of Salvation. All we have to do is take it. There is nothing we can do to earn this gift. It is freely given. All one must do is to admit that they have sinned, and accept Jesus as Lord of their life. This is what I believe. It is carved in stone. Nothing anyone can say will ever change my mind about any of it. And this is why so many reject God. They want to be Lords of their own lives. Their stiff necked pride will not allow them to admit that their efforts aren't good enough.They choke on the idea that they have anything to be sorry for. Thus, they reject their Creator. And this is what I said in my original post. This is not my opinion. It is what the Bible teaches.

Dear Lutroo
I am not "asking you to change your mind about your beliefs"
but to change your perception that it can't be translated into scientific terms
and explained to secular types who think that way.

"Why so many people reject God" is
* fear that other people are pushing a religion for ulterior or selfish motives
* unforgiveness of what religious people have done in the name of God and religion

it's fear and unforgiveness because we don't speak the same language.

If you don't believe love of truth is greater than that fear,
you are not unlike nonbelievers who don't have faith either.

If you are just as afraid of people who reject God
as people are afraid of you who believes in God,
then you are in the same boat
if you let your FEAR control your thinking
and not put your FAITH first before your FEAR.

If the FEAR is the driving force, that is not God.
God is love which casts out fear.
If we don't forgive first, this limits the love and truth
from entering in. That's why forgiveness is so important.

It doesn't change anything you already believes, but fulfills it.
People reject out of FEAR similar to what you seem to have of
what it takes to explain this to secular gentiles. You seem afraid
"as if it is contradicting your faith instead of reinforcing it."
God created science, so all the laws of science would ENFORCE
God's truth not belittle it in ANY way. Why do you fear it affects what you believe?
Where is this fear coming from?

 

[Lutroo]

Dear Pogo
Do you agree that all humans are biased and conditioned to favor or reject things according to what experiences we are born into?

Sure. That makes sense.

So if you had this influence early on and rejected it,
doesn't that show how biases happen. And this makes us treat people as unequal. If you reject Christianity
and have a bias against it, you will not be able to understand and love all people equally. Nobody can!

Maybe I wasn't clear. The bias in my childhood was promoting Christianism, not rejecting it. There was no such thing as rejecting it then. That was verboten. You would "go to hell". (again the old rhetorical fascism -- "you vill think ze prescribed thoughts or else -- ve haf vays") This had to be tucked away, internalized and worked out in the proverbial dead of night, like Winston Smith writing in his diary that he has the right to defy the State and declare that "two plus two equals four".

Yes, what I'm saying is that because of this background,
then YOU are more biased TODAY to rejecting Christianity.

I am more into forgiving false teachings of it, since it was
never forced on me growing up, but I only learned it by
free choice AFTER I went through a spiritual rebirth process.

So my bias tends to be toward including and correcting it,
and forgiving the twisted corruptions abuses and misteaching of it.
All the negatives are less and correctable in light with the good I've seen;
again being biased because I have friends who practice spiritual healing and have
saved lives using this teaching correctly. I have found other
resources that can medically prove these methods works to
heal mental and physical ills by REMOVING generational causes
through forgiveness therapy. So I am biased toward proving this
scientifically so more people have this knowledge and can make
fully informed choices based on what is really taught in Christianity.

Interesting. But I think we are getting off topic here. The only truth one needs to know is that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Without acknowledging this simple truth, nothing else matters. Does it. And that is the point I've been trying to make all along. It is the sinners refusal to acknowledge this simple fact that leads them to reject God. They'll offer all kinds of excuses, but it all comes back to this. The sin of pride.

 

[Pogo]

Dear Pogo
Do you agree that all humans are biased and conditioned to favor or reject things according to what experiences we are born into?

Sure. That makes sense.

So if you had this influence early on and rejected it,
doesn't that show how biases happen. And this makes us treat people as unequal. If you reject Christianity
and have a bias against it, you will not be able to understand and love all people equally. Nobody can!

Maybe I wasn't clear. The bias in my childhood was promoting Christianism, not rejecting it. There was no such thing as rejecting it then. That was verboten. You would "go to hell". (again the old rhetorical fascism -- "you vill think ze prescribed thoughts or else -- ve haf vays") This had to be tucked away, internalized and worked out in the proverbial dead of night, like Winston Smith writing in his diary that he has the right to defy the State and declare that "two plus two equals four".

Yes, what I'm saying is that because of this background,
then YOU are more biased TODAY to rejecting Christianity.

I am more into forgiving false teachings of it, since it was
never forced on me growing up, but I only learned it by
free choice AFTER I went through a spiritual rebirth process.

So my bias tends to be toward including and correcting it,
and forgiving the twisted corruptions abuses and misteaching of it.
All the negatives are less and correctable in light with the good I've seen;
again being biased because I have friends who practice spiritual healing and have
saved lives using this teaching correctly. I have found other
resources that can medically prove these methods works to
heal mental and physical ills by REMOVING generational causes
through forgiveness therapy. So I am biased toward proving this
scientifically so more people have this knowledge and can make
fully informed choices based on what is really taught in Christianity.

Interesting -- so you went into it voluntarily as a free choice?

Would you care to explain why? And concurrently -- and I know like all religion questions this is a personal question and you need not address it --- would you care to share what kind of tradition/indoctrination you left behind to get there?

 

[Pogo]

Dear Pogo
Do you agree that all humans are biased and conditioned to favor or reject things according to what experiences we are born into?

Sure. That makes sense.

So if you had this influence early on and rejected it,
doesn't that show how biases happen. And this makes us treat people as unequal. If you reject Christianity
and have a bias against it, you will not be able to understand and love all people equally. Nobody can!

Maybe I wasn't clear. The bias in my childhood was promoting Christianism, not rejecting it. There was no such thing as rejecting it then. That was verboten. You would "go to hell". (again the old rhetorical fascism -- "you vill think ze prescribed thoughts or else -- ve haf vays") This had to be tucked away, internalized and worked out in the proverbial dead of night, like Winston Smith writing in his diary that he has the right to defy the State and declare that "two plus two equals four".

Yes, what I'm saying is that because of this background,
then YOU are more biased TODAY to rejecting Christianity.

I am more into forgiving false teachings of it, since it was
never forced on me growing up, but I only learned it by
free choice AFTER I went through a spiritual rebirth process.

So my bias tends to be toward including and correcting it, and forgiving the twisted corruptions abuses and misteaching of it.
All the negatives are less and correctable in light with the good I've seen; again being biased because I have friends who practice spiritual healing and have saved lives using this teaching correctly. I have found other resources that can medically prove these methods works to heal mental and physical ills by REMOVING generational causes through forgiveness therapy. So I am biased toward proving this scientifically so more people have this knowledge and can make
fully informed choices based on what is really taught in Christianity.

Interesting. But I think we are getting off topic here. The only truth one needs to know is that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Without acknowledging this simple truth, nothing else matters. Does it. And that is the point I've been trying to make all along. It is the sinners refusal to acknowledge this simple fact that leads them to reject God. They'll offer all kinds of excuses, but it all comes back to this. The sin of pride.

This is the binary thinking I keep referring to. "I have my story and I'm sticking to it and I'm not listening aaah la la la "

 

[emilynghiem]

Emily --- you have redeemed another thread.

Dear Pogo are you okay with just
equating Nature = God.

We don't have to agree what created Nature
any more than we have to agree what created God.

Sure. In fact that's the closest thing to how I would express it: Nature.
The whole idea of anthropomorphizing a Creator being is itself kind of childishly absurd, and then to make him male is even wackier (if God is "male", who's the female that makes him "male"? When are they gonna have little gods?)

What is the highest level of life or truth about how the world works that you recognize? Do you call this universal laws or laws of Nature? What do you call this and it doesn't have to
be a creator or person.

I like the Tao te Ching. It astounds me in its wisdom. But I don't limit it to that; I like what is revealed in various pagan and animist spiritualites that have evolved, from Druidism to Candomblé. I'll listen to any ideas, and the ones that fit, I'll listen closely. And maybe that's the underlying point --- listening to ideas.

Do you believe there is universal truth, a collective
body of all knowledge? Do you believe in a higher Justice that all humanity answers to? What do you call the
source of Truth, Justice, Life or love in the world?

Not sure what we mean by "truth". The truth is the truth, something I try to champion on these political boards, i.e. "facts" over myths. But this may not be the sense you mean. "Truth", "Justice", "Life" and "Love" are four different things.

Whatever is the highest "default" level that is what God represents. What is the absolute in your terms?

I don't understand this question.

OK so we can equate God = Nature.
This works for all practical purposes.

I think I lost Lutroo who thought I was trying to say something
against having faith in the Bible and Christianity as taught.

The same God who is authority/source of the spiritual laws
in the Scriptural/Church governed path is also the source
of Natural Laws of the Gentiles by the secular path or fold of the one flock.

Let me see if I can steer back on track with Lutroo:
Lutroo do you agree with the Bible verses where Jesus
talking about governing the second fold of the one flock?
Are you okay with the Gentiles being under natural laws
that Jesus governs as the Son of Man equally as Jesus
governs as head of the church and scriptural authorities
as the Son of God. That the Lord or authority of law is one?
Even if people have both: natural/civil laws of the secular state
and we have scriptural church laws of the believers. That Jesus
representing universal justice fulfills both these paths even though
their laws and language are expressed in different terms?

 

[Lutroo]

That's a lot of wind to blow away the phrases I highlighted, which was, again, "YOU MUST". That's a kind of rhetorical fascism, which is why I observe at the end, "these are the seeds of Intolerance". It begins with this binary declaration of "us and them" and "us" is right and "them" is wrong, and "our" way is the only way... "you must".

That's one level -- the verbs and the control-freakism. The inability to accept that, not to sound cliché, "there are many paths" and that someone else may just choose a different one, and that's none of his business.

Concerning his self-congratulatory exegesis on the concept of "redemption", putting words into the mouths of others he didn't bother to ask, the idea is not only a strawman but absurd on its face. For an example, America's very national pastime -- baseball -- is based around the concept. No one who appreciates the poetry of baseball "hates" the idea. It could hardly exist without it. Redemption is the flip side of forgiveness. We can't exist without them either.

That's why I posed the question on an absurd premise.

OK. Let's back track. Do you believe in God? By God, I mean the Creator of everything. The power that all of existence depends on? We need to find a common thread to hang any discussion on. So answer this simple yes or no question, then we can proceed.

I've heard the argument made that goes "look at all this around you -- the sky, the trees, the birds, the stars.... isn't it obvious that some entity had to purposely create this?"

Well as a matter of fact..... no, it isn't.

Dear Pogo are you okay with just
equating Nature = God.

We don't have to agree what created Nature
any more than we have to agree what created God.

What is the highest level of life or truth about how the world works
that you recognize? Do you call this universal laws or
laws of Nature? What do you call this and it doesn't have to
be a creator or person.

Do you believe there is universal truth, a collective
body of all knowledge? Do you believe in a higher Justice
that all humanity answers to? What do you call the
source of Truth, Justice, Life or love in the world?

Whatever is the highest "default" level that is what
God represents. What is the absolute in your terms?

I believe that God created the universe and everything in it. I believe that man was created as a perfect being, in harmony with his Creator. I believe that man sinned and was separated from God. I believe that God loved us so much, that He gave us a way out. He sent His only Son to pay the price for sin, so that we wouldn't have to. God, through His Son Jesus Christ, offered every man woman and child the free gift of Salvation. All we have to do is take it. There is nothing we can do to earn this gift. It is freely given. All one must do is to admit that they have sinned, and accept Jesus as Lord of their life. This is what I believe. It is carved in stone. Nothing anyone can say will ever change my mind about any of it. And this is why so many reject God. They want to be Lords of their own lives. Their stiff necked pride will not allow them to admit that their efforts aren't good enough.They choke on the idea that they have anything to be sorry for. Thus, they reject their Creator. And this is what I said in my original post. This is not my opinion. It is what the Bible teaches.

Dear Lutroo
I am not "asking you to change your mind about your beliefs"
but to change your perception that it can't be translated into scientific terms
and explained to secular types who think that way.

"Why so many people reject God" is
* fear that other people are pushing a religion for ulterior or selfish motives
* unforgiveness of what religious people have done in the name of God and religion

it's fear and unforgiveness because we don't speak the same language.

If you don't believe love of truth is greater than that fear,
you are not unlike nonbelievers who don't have faith either.

If you are just as afraid of people who reject God
as people are afraid of you who believes in God,
then you are in the same boat
if you let your FEAR control your thinking
and not put your FAITH first before your FEAR.

If the FEAR is the driving force, that is not God.
God is love which casts out fear.
If we don't forgive first, this limits the love and truth
from entering in. That's why forgiveness is so important.

It doesn't change anything you already believes, but fulfills it.
People reject out of FEAR similar to what you seem to have of
what it takes to explain this to secular gentiles. You seem afraid
"as if it is contradicting your faith instead of reinforcing it."
God created science, so all the laws of science would ENFORCE
God's truth not belittle it in ANY way. Why do you fear it affects what you believe?
Where is this fear coming from?

I understand where you're coming from, but it has nothing to do with fear. The Bible teaches that no one will have an excuse when they stand before God to be judged. You see, for me, it's really simple. People hear Gods word. They accept it, or they reject it. That's it. There are no excuses. No justifications. The is also clear that even those who have never heard the Gospel of Christ can be saved, because they acknowledge the Creator and their own fallen state. They may not know what to do about it, but they believe in a Creator and want to do what is pleasing to Him. They do this by following Gods law, which is engraved in every human heart.

 

[Lutroo]

Dear Pogo
Do you agree that all humans are biased and conditioned to favor or reject things according to what experiences we are born into?

Sure. That makes sense.

So if you had this influence early on and rejected it,
doesn't that show how biases happen. And this makes us treat people as unequal. If you reject Christianity
and have a bias against it, you will not be able to understand and love all people equally. Nobody can!

Maybe I wasn't clear. The bias in my childhood was promoting Christianism, not rejecting it. There was no such thing as rejecting it then. That was verboten. You would "go to hell". (again the old rhetorical fascism -- "you vill think ze prescribed thoughts or else -- ve haf vays") This had to be tucked away, internalized and worked out in the proverbial dead of night, like Winston Smith writing in his diary that he has the right to defy the State and declare that "two plus two equals four".

Yes, what I'm saying is that because of this background,
then YOU are more biased TODAY to rejecting Christianity.

I am more into forgiving false teachings of it, since it was
never forced on me growing up, but I only learned it by
free choice AFTER I went through a spiritual rebirth process.

So my bias tends to be toward including and correcting it, and forgiving the twisted corruptions abuses and misteaching of it.
All the negatives are less and correctable in light with the good I've seen; again being biased because I have friends who practice spiritual healing and have saved lives using this teaching correctly. I have found other resources that can medically prove these methods works to heal mental and physical ills by REMOVING generational causes through forgiveness therapy. So I am biased toward proving this scientifically so more people have this knowledge and can make
fully informed choices based on what is really taught in Christianity.

Interesting. But I think we are getting off topic here. The only truth one needs to know is that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Without acknowledging this simple truth, nothing else matters. Does it. And that is the point I've been trying to make all along. It is the sinners refusal to acknowledge this simple fact that leads them to reject God. They'll offer all kinds of excuses, but it all comes back to this. The sin of pride.

This is the binary thinking I keep referring to. "I have my story and I'm sticking to it and I'm not listening aaah la la la "

You say binary thinking like it's a bad thing. I believe in the Bible. I believe that it is the word of God. I believe this because of the evidence I have seen. This is hardly binary thinking. It was a conscious decision making process based on evidence. With the evidence available to me, I could come to no other conclusion. Allow me to ask another question. The answer will tell me a lot about you. Do you believe in moral absolutes?

 

[Tilly]

Redemption—the most important of all gospel truths—is at once the sweetest note in the song of Bible believers and a favorite target for the derision of Bible deniers. It offends the pride of fallen men to learn that they need to be redeemed, but it rejoices the souls of regenerate men to know their need has been graciously met.

And this is why the Gospel of Christ is so hated by many. They hate it because they refuse to admit that they are not good enough to make it to Heaven on their own. They will come up with all kinds of excuses, but the root cause is PRIDE. Always has been. Always will be.

Many will even tell you that they do not believe in God. This is not so, for the most part. Sure, there are those who have not made up their minds yet. But others have.

These unregenerate souls have rejected God, and the sacrifice that His Son made for us. These people are to be pitied above all others, because having known Christ, they have spit in His face and rejected the most precious gift ever offered. The gift of REDEMPTION.

Today is the day of Salvation.

If you are not saved, and would like to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, it is very simple to do.

First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.

Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.

Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you. And here is how you do this. The words aren't really that important. It is your intent that matters. It goes something like this.

View attachment 76409

No one pays for you sins except you, don't put your sins on a poor dead man.

You cannot pay for your own sins. That's why Jesus decided to do it. That's Gospel one oh one. For by grace are ye saved. Not of works, lest any man should boast. There is nothing you can do to save yourself. This is a fact. You cannot earn your way to Heaven. This is why Jesus died in our place. It stands to reason if we could save ourselves, Jesus would not have had to die. Would He?

It is not a fact. It is a belief.

 

[Pogo]

You say binary thinking like it's a bad thing.

Yeah I do. Because it is. At least we're clear on that.

I believe in the Bible. I believe that it is the word of God. I believe this because of the evidence I have seen. This is hardly binary thinking. It was a conscious decision making process based on evidence. With the evidence available to me, I could come to no other conclusion. Allow me to ask another question. The answer will tell me a lot about you. Do you believe in moral absolutes?

--- meaning what? The (binary) concepts of "good" and "evil"?

Can we do "Satan" too?

 

[Pogo]

OK it's baseball time. Y'all sing the national anthem or sump'm. I gotta go see which players are going to.....


.... what is the word....


oh yeah.. REDEEM themselves.

 

[Lutroo]

Emily --- you have redeemed another thread.

Dear Pogo are you okay with just
equating Nature = God.

We don't have to agree what created Nature
any more than we have to agree what created God.

Sure. In fact that's the closest thing to how I would express it: Nature.
The whole idea of anthropomorphizing a Creator being is itself kind of childishly absurd, and then to make him male is even wackier (if God is "male", who's the female that makes him "male"? When are they gonna have little gods?)

What is the highest level of life or truth about how the world works that you recognize? Do you call this universal laws or laws of Nature? What do you call this and it doesn't have to
be a creator or person.

I like the Tao te Ching. It astounds me in its wisdom. But I don't limit it to that; I like what is revealed in various pagan and animist spiritualites that have evolved, from Druidism to Candomblé. I'll listen to any ideas, and the ones that fit, I'll listen closely. And maybe that's the underlying point --- listening to ideas.

Do you believe there is universal truth, a collective
body of all knowledge? Do you believe in a higher Justice that all humanity answers to? What do you call the
source of Truth, Justice, Life or love in the world?

Not sure what we mean by "truth". The truth is the truth, something I try to champion on these political boards, i.e. "facts" over myths. But this may not be the sense you mean. "Truth", "Justice", "Life" and "Love" are four different things.

Whatever is the highest "default" level that is what God represents. What is the absolute in your terms?

I don't understand this question.

OK so we can equate God = Nature.
This works for all practical purposes.

I think I lost Lutroo who thought I was trying to say something
against having faith in the Bible and Christianity as taught.

The same God who is authority/source of the spiritual laws
in the Scriptural/Church governed path is also the source
of Natural Laws of the Gentiles by the secular path or fold of the one flock.

Let me see if I can steer back on track with Lutroo:
Lutroo do you agree with the Bible verses where Jesus
talking about governing the second fold of the one flock?
Are you okay with the Gentiles being under natural laws
that Jesus governs as the Son of Man equally as Jesus
governs as head of the church and scriptural authorities
as the Son of God. That the Lord or authority of law is one?
Even if people have both: natural/civil laws of the secular state
and we have scriptural church laws of the believers. That Jesus
representing universal justice fulfills both these paths even though
their laws and language are expressed in different terms?

It would help if you provided the verses in question. I haven't got around to memorizing the Bible yet. It's on my to list though.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Pogo
Do you agree that all humans are biased and conditioned to favor or reject things according to what experiences we are born into?

Sure. That makes sense.

So if you had this influence early on and rejected it,
doesn't that show how biases happen. And this makes us treat people as unequal. If you reject Christianity
and have a bias against it, you will not be able to understand and love all people equally. Nobody can!

Maybe I wasn't clear. The bias in my childhood was promoting Christianism, not rejecting it. There was no such thing as rejecting it then. That was verboten. You would "go to hell". (again the old rhetorical fascism -- "you vill think ze prescribed thoughts or else -- ve haf vays") This had to be tucked away, internalized and worked out in the proverbial dead of night, like Winston Smith writing in his diary that he has the right to defy the State and declare that "two plus two equals four".

Yes, what I'm saying is that because of this background,
then YOU are more biased TODAY to rejecting Christianity.

I am more into forgiving false teachings of it, since it was
never forced on me growing up, but I only learned it by
free choice AFTER I went through a spiritual rebirth process.

So my bias tends to be toward including and correcting it,
and forgiving the twisted corruptions abuses and misteaching of it.
All the negatives are less and correctable in light with the good I've seen;
again being biased because I have friends who practice spiritual healing and have
saved lives using this teaching correctly. I have found other
resources that can medically prove these methods works to
heal mental and physical ills by REMOVING generational causes
through forgiveness therapy. So I am biased toward proving this
scientifically so more people have this knowledge and can make
fully informed choices based on what is really taught in Christianity.

Interesting -- so you went into it voluntarily as a free choice?

Would you care to explain why? And concurrently -- and I know like all religion questions this is a personal question and you need not address it --- would you care to share what kind of tradition/indoctrination you left behind to get there?

Oh boy this gets deep Pogo
I went into it with nothing, my mother and father came from a Vietnamese Buddhist background
and gave all the kids a choice to adopt what we believed made sense, to try to do right and good things
and try to avoid bad things that cause problems and suffereing. To take responsibility to do the best job possible. So practical ethics. My personal take on this is "what makes people happy" because if something is causing a problem or suffering "people make it clear they aren't happy" So you can use that as a gauge.

I had a spiritual experience in 1990 and then I saw that both the paths in Buddhism from the East and Christianity from the West were merging in fulfillment of peace and justice on earth. I had a vision that
is what the Bible represented, but I'd never read it. I had to start studying it to "interpret" the symbolism
and figure out the spiritual process and patterns that are represented there.

Same with Buddhism so I could TRY to communicate with my mom. (she does better with monks who explain it using Buddhism in ways I learn from them and cannot figure out myself)

And now with Constitutional language so I can communicate with people of diverse religious and political beliefs who all use Constitutional principles to protect and defend their interests as a common language or law.

If you were to ask me what denomination I am
I would say I am Constitutionalist. I have joined
a Unitarian Universalist fellowship that is older conservative
type progressives, who have both secular progressive interests
but come from old school backgrounds and are not into rejecting Christianity or God.
So we don't argue about that, but are trying to work out ways to
formulate solutions and share these through the peace and justice community.

Whatever this belief in peace and justice is, that is what
I consider the secular equivalent of Christ Jesus as Restorative Justice.

So I have the same faith as a Christian who uses the Bible
but I explain and express it in Constitutional terms: secular terms of Restorative
Justice and "democratic due process" to establish Equal Justice
Under Law by free choice and CONSENSUS on law (not by force of law or coercion).

I would say I came out as a Constitutionalist,
(and have regretted it ever since, it is too much work
trying to enforce a sense of equal respect and protections of all people equally,
who insist on abusing and treating each other unequally, very hard if not impossible
in a politically divided bullying environment that rewards people for blaming not correcting problems)

 

[Lutroo]

Redemption—the most important of all gospel truths—is at once the sweetest note in the song of Bible believers and a favorite target for the derision of Bible deniers. It offends the pride of fallen men to learn that they need to be redeemed, but it rejoices the souls of regenerate men to know their need has been graciously met.

And this is why the Gospel of Christ is so hated by many. They hate it because they refuse to admit that they are not good enough to make it to Heaven on their own. They will come up with all kinds of excuses, but the root cause is PRIDE. Always has been. Always will be.

Many will even tell you that they do not believe in God. This is not so, for the most part. Sure, there are those who have not made up their minds yet. But others have.

These unregenerate souls have rejected God, and the sacrifice that His Son made for us. These people are to be pitied above all others, because having known Christ, they have spit in His face and rejected the most precious gift ever offered. The gift of REDEMPTION.

Today is the day of Salvation.

If you are not saved, and would like to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, it is very simple to do.

First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.

Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.

Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you. And here is how you do this. The words aren't really that important. It is your intent that matters. It goes something like this.

View attachment 76409

No one pays for you sins except you, don't put your sins on a poor dead man.

You cannot pay for your own sins. That's why Jesus decided to do it. That's Gospel one oh one. For by grace are ye saved. Not of works, lest any man should boast. There is nothing you can do to save yourself. This is a fact. You cannot earn your way to Heaven. This is why Jesus died in our place. It stands to reason if we could save ourselves, Jesus would not have had to die. Would He?

It is not a fact. It is a belief.

No reason why it can't be both.

 

[emilynghiem]

Fell asleep at the second paragraph waiting for a point, but lemme sum it up for you very simply:

Version one:
Version two:
See the difference?

Me neither.

These are the seeds of Intolerance.

Hi Pogo Let me translate into secular terms and natural laws
1. IF You continue the way of RETRIBUTION
then if you live by the sword you die by the sword
You get the justice you give.
So if you do not let go and forgive the wrongs of others,
these repeat and all humanity suffers them again and again.
We all suffer war which is hell on earth

2. IF we chose the path of Restorative Justice
which is the secular name and meaning of the spirit of Christ Jesus
THEN we forgive one another and correct wrongs together.
We bring new life and heal relations and can rebuild.

So that is the path, the choices in life.

No, you don't have to rely on Biblical/Christian terms
which I don't relate to either. I understand these in
terms of what they MEAN, and this meaning
and process is UNIVERSAL to all humanity,
both Jews/Christians/Believers under the church/scriptural laws and authority
AND the "secular Gentiles" like you and me under NATURAL laws of
reason, science and what solves problems in the REAL WORLD.

The meaning is universal, the symbolic language is relative.
We are not responsible for if we can't follow "foreign languages"
that don't make sense to us.

But the UNIVERSAL LAWS they represent,
we are responsible for as human beings who are
supposed to live in peace and by equal justice
if we are going to survive in the longrun. That part IS our responsibility
socially and collectively, which is what these religions attempt to
symbolize represent and teach using figurative language

That's a lot of wind to blow away the phrases I highlighted, which was, again, "YOU MUST". That's a kind of rhetorical fascism, which is why I observe at the end, "these are the seeds of Intolerance". It begins with this binary declaration of "us and them" and "us" is right and "them" is wrong, and "our" way is the only way... "you must".

That's one level -- the verbs and the control-freakism. The inability to accept that, not to sound cliché, "there are many paths" and that someone else may just choose a different one, and that's none of his business.

Concerning his self-congratulatory exegesis on the concept of "redemption", putting words into the mouths of others he didn't bother to ask, the idea is not only a strawman but absurd on its face. For an example, America's very national pastime -- baseball -- is based around the concept. No one who appreciates the poetry of baseball "hates" the idea. It could hardly exist without it. Redemption is the flip side of forgiveness. We can't exist without them either.

That's why I posed the question on an absurd premise.

OK. Let's back track. Do you believe in God? By God, I mean the Creator of everything. The power that all of existence depends on? We need to find a common thread to hang any discussion on. So answer this simple yes or no question, then we can proceed.

I've heard the argument made that goes "look at all this around you -- the sky, the trees, the birds, the stars.... isn't it obvious that some entity had to purposely create this?"

Well as a matter of fact, since you ask..... no, it isn't. Not at all.

Well, golly gee. I guess that means that NOTHING created it. It just sprang into existence all by itself. How could I have missed it?

Dear Lutroo it is perfectly consistent with faith in God
to see God as infinite, self-existent/eternal, with no beginning and no end.
That life is and always was in existence.

If we imagine there is beginning to life/God/Universal absolute (either Creation/Creator),
then whatever force created that, we call THAT starting point God.
And if that has a starting point, then THAT becomes God.
So if we keep doing this, then God is infinite as the ultimate level or source.

We can still teach all the things in the Bible
in the context that God may be this infinite creation or process
and the laws are still true regardless if we ever can understand the source.

 

[Tilly]

Redemption—the most important of all gospel truths—is at once the sweetest note in the song of Bible believers and a favorite target for the derision of Bible deniers. It offends the pride of fallen men to learn that they need to be redeemed, but it rejoices the souls of regenerate men to know their need has been graciously met.

And this is why the Gospel of Christ is so hated by many. They hate it because they refuse to admit that they are not good enough to make it to Heaven on their own. They will come up with all kinds of excuses, but the root cause is PRIDE. Always has been. Always will be.

Many will even tell you that they do not believe in God. This is not so, for the most part. Sure, there are those who have not made up their minds yet. But others have.

These unregenerate souls have rejected God, and the sacrifice that His Son made for us. These people are to be pitied above all others, because having known Christ, they have spit in His face and rejected the most precious gift ever offered. The gift of REDEMPTION.

Today is the day of Salvation.

If you are not saved, and would like to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, it is very simple to do.

First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.

Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.

Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you. And here is how you do this. The words aren't really that important. It is your intent that matters. It goes something like this.

View attachment 76409

No one pays for you sins except you, don't put your sins on a poor dead man.

You cannot pay for your own sins. That's why Jesus decided to do it. That's Gospel one oh one. For by grace are ye saved. Not of works, lest any man should boast. There is nothing you can do to save yourself. This is a fact. You cannot earn your way to Heaven. This is why Jesus died in our place. It stands to reason if we could save ourselves, Jesus would not have had to die. Would He?

It is not a fact. It is a belief.

No reason why it can't be both.

You haven't stated a single fact in your paragraph above. You've only stated your beliefs as though they are facts, and then you state your beliefs are facts. Nope.