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Sorry to hear that you lack the intelligence to understand what I was getting at. I tried to dumb it down for people like you. I guess I'll have to use words of fewer syllables, or something. You might want to consider some remedial reading classes. I hear that they can really help.Redemption—the most important of all gospel truths—is at once the sweetest note in the song of Bible believers and a favorite target for the derision of Bible deniers. It offends the pride of fallen men to learn that they need to be redeemed, but it rejoices the souls of regenerate men to know their need has been graciously met.
And this is why the Gospel of Christ is so hated by many. They hate it because they refuse to admit that they are not good enough to make it to Heaven on their own. They will come up with all kinds of excuses, but the root cause is PRIDE. Always has been. Always will be.
Many will even tell you that they do not believe in God. This is not so, for the most part. Sure, there are those who have not made up their minds yet. But others have.
These unregenerate souls have rejected God, and the sacrifice that His Son made for us. These people are to be pitied above all others, because having known Christ, they have spit in His face and rejected the most precious gift ever offered. The gift of REDEMPTION.
Today is the day of Salvation.
If you are not saved, and would like to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, it is very simple to do.
First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.
Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.
Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you. And here is how you do this. The words aren't really that important. It is your intent that matters. It goes something like this.
View attachment 76409
No one pays for you sins except you, don't put your sins on a poor dead man.
Penelope and Pogo
When a rapist doesn't forgive the past, the sins and demons can be dumped on an innocent victim. Look at victims of war, from chemical weapons or terrorism, or toxic waste they didn't cause -- people pay all the time for the sins and wrongs of others.
The point of praying for redemption in Christ is to break this cycle collectively for all humanity, which no individual has the power to do on our own. It takes greater grace and power to heal the sickness that causes people to abuse, terrorize, violate and kill others because they are still carrying issues from the past and projecting these forward until they get help.
The point is the vicious cycle of sin and karma repeats and projects forward
IF WE DO NOT FORGIVE AND HEAL THE SICKNESS OF THE PAST.
Yes, our children and future generations pay, and carry the debts, if we do not correct and fix our problems.
Karma - cause and effect.
We can either live by retributive justice, like the mad rapist or terrorists who makes others pay,
or we can live by Restorative Justice which is what Christ Jesus represents and brings to establish on earth.
Through forgiveness, we receive this higher peace and justice by forgiving first and then wrongs can be righted second as a consequence.
Correct me, if I'm mistaken, but your question was why do people hate it? I answered that in the OP. You might want to take another look at it, assuming you read it in the first place.If you had been paying attention, you would have noticed that I already answered your question.First thing someone did, was to warn me about you. I see why now.
Because I axe questions you can't answer?
Hey, you brought it up... what, a factory recall already?
Maybe you sent it to Guno. I'm not seeing it.
I read it, and it made no sense. It's a strawman comprised of petulance and putting words in other people's mouths. Thought maybe you could support your point.
Guess not. You'd have to abandon the whole binary-thinking division thing. Can't have that.
Redemption—the most important of all gospel truths—is at once the sweetest note in the song of Bible believers and a favorite target for the derision of Bible deniers. It offends the pride of fallen men to learn that they need to be redeemed, but it rejoices the souls of regenerate men to know their need has been graciously met.
And this is why the Gospel of Christ is so hated by many. They hate it because they refuse to admit that they are not good enough to make it to Heaven on their own. They will come up with all kinds of excuses, but the root cause is PRIDE. Always has been. Always will be.
Many will even tell you that they do not believe in God. This is not so, for the most part. Sure, there are those who have not made up their minds yet. But others have.
These unregenerate souls have rejected God, and the sacrifice that His Son made for us. These people are to be pitied above all others, because having known Christ, they have spit in His face and rejected the most precious gift ever offered. The gift of REDEMPTION.
Today is the day of Salvation.
If you are not saved, and would like to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, it is very simple to do.
First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.
Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.
Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you. And here is how you do this. The words aren't really that important. It is your intent that matters. It goes something like this.
View attachment 76409
No one pays for you sins except you, don't put your sins on a poor dead man.
Penelope and Pogo
When a rapist doesn't forgive the past, the sins and demons can be dumped on an innocent victim. Look at victims of war, from chemical weapons or terrorism, or toxic waste they didn't cause -- people pay all the time for the sins and wrongs of others.
The point of praying for redemption in Christ is to break this cycle collectively for all humanity, which no individual has the power to do on our own. It takes greater grace and power to heal the sickness that causes people to abuse, terrorize, violate and kill others because they are still carrying issues from the past and projecting these forward until they get help.
The point is the vicious cycle of sin and karma repeats and projects forward
IF WE DO NOT FORGIVE AND HEAL THE SICKNESS OF THE PAST.
Yes, our children and future generations pay, and carry the debts, if we do not correct and fix our problems.
Karma - cause and effect.
We can either live by retributive justice, like the mad rapist or terrorists who "makes others pay," or we can live by Restorative Justice which is what Christ Jesus represents and brings to establish on earth -- ie we no longer "pay things back" but we pay benefits FORWARD to help others break the patterns of destructive abusive behavior. Through forgiveness, we receive and establish higher peace and justice by forgiving first and then wrongs, restoring healthy relations so we can work together on solutions, so the wrongs of the past can be righted second as a consequence.
Fell asleep at the second paragraph waiting for a point, but lemme sum it up for you very simply:
Version one:
First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.
Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.
Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you.
Version two:
MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY
See the difference?
Me neither.
These are the seeds of Intolerance.
Sorry to hear that you lack the intelligence to understand what I was getting at. I tried to dumb it down for people like you. I guess I'll have to use words of fewer syllables, or something. You might want to consider some remedial reading classes. I hear that they can really help.Redemption—the most important of all gospel truths—is at once the sweetest note in the song of Bible believers and a favorite target for the derision of Bible deniers. It offends the pride of fallen men to learn that they need to be redeemed, but it rejoices the souls of regenerate men to know their need has been graciously met.
And this is why the Gospel of Christ is so hated by many. They hate it because they refuse to admit that they are not good enough to make it to Heaven on their own. They will come up with all kinds of excuses, but the root cause is PRIDE. Always has been. Always will be.
Many will even tell you that they do not believe in God. This is not so, for the most part. Sure, there are those who have not made up their minds yet. But others have.
These unregenerate souls have rejected God, and the sacrifice that His Son made for us. These people are to be pitied above all others, because having known Christ, they have spit in His face and rejected the most precious gift ever offered. The gift of REDEMPTION.
Today is the day of Salvation.
If you are not saved, and would like to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, it is very simple to do.
First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.
Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.
Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you. And here is how you do this. The words aren't really that important. It is your intent that matters. It goes something like this.
View attachment 76409
No one pays for you sins except you, don't put your sins on a poor dead man.
Penelope and Pogo
When a rapist doesn't forgive the past, the sins and demons can be dumped on an innocent victim. Look at victims of war, from chemical weapons or terrorism, or toxic waste they didn't cause -- people pay all the time for the sins and wrongs of others.
The point of praying for redemption in Christ is to break this cycle collectively for all humanity, which no individual has the power to do on our own. It takes greater grace and power to heal the sickness that causes people to abuse, terrorize, violate and kill others because they are still carrying issues from the past and projecting these forward until they get help.
The point is the vicious cycle of sin and karma repeats and projects forward
IF WE DO NOT FORGIVE AND HEAL THE SICKNESS OF THE PAST.
Yes, our children and future generations pay, and carry the debts, if we do not correct and fix our problems.
Karma - cause and effect.
We can either live by retributive justice, like the mad rapist or terrorists who makes others pay,
or we can live by Restorative Justice which is what Christ Jesus represents and brings to establish on earth.
Through forgiveness, we receive this higher peace and justice by forgiving first and then wrongs can be righted second as a consequence.
Correct me, if I'm mistaken, but your question was why do people hate it? I answered that in the OP. You might want to take another look at it, assuming you read it in the first place.If you had been paying attention, you would have noticed that I already answered your question.Because I axe questions you can't answer?
Hey, you brought it up... what, a factory recall already?
Maybe you sent it to Guno. I'm not seeing it.
I read it, and it made no sense. It's a strawman comprised of petulance and putting words in other people's mouths. Thought maybe you could support your point.
Guess not. You'd have to abandon the whole binary-thinking division thing. Can't have that.
I don't see why any translation is necessary. Gods truths are universal. Anyone can understand what is written in Gods word. I believe that I was perfectly clear in what I said. It needs no translation. My original post is simple enough for a child to understand. I believe that Pogo's problem is the result of willful ignorance.Sorry to hear that you lack the intelligence to understand what I was getting at. I tried to dumb it down for people like you. I guess I'll have to use words of fewer syllables, or something. You might want to consider some remedial reading classes. I hear that they can really help.No one pays for you sins except you, don't put your sins on a poor dead man.
Penelope and Pogo
When a rapist doesn't forgive the past, the sins and demons can be dumped on an innocent victim. Look at victims of war, from chemical weapons or terrorism, or toxic waste they didn't cause -- people pay all the time for the sins and wrongs of others.
The point of praying for redemption in Christ is to break this cycle collectively for all humanity, which no individual has the power to do on our own. It takes greater grace and power to heal the sickness that causes people to abuse, terrorize, violate and kill others because they are still carrying issues from the past and projecting these forward until they get help.
The point is the vicious cycle of sin and karma repeats and projects forward
IF WE DO NOT FORGIVE AND HEAL THE SICKNESS OF THE PAST.
Yes, our children and future generations pay, and carry the debts, if we do not correct and fix our problems.
Karma - cause and effect.
We can either live by retributive justice, like the mad rapist or terrorists who makes others pay,
or we can live by Restorative Justice which is what Christ Jesus represents and brings to establish on earth.
Through forgiveness, we receive this higher peace and justice by forgiving first and then wrongs can be righted second as a consequence.
Correct me, if I'm mistaken, but your question was why do people hate it? I answered that in the OP. You might want to take another look at it, assuming you read it in the first place.If you had been paying attention, you would have noticed that I already answered your question.
Maybe you sent it to Guno. I'm not seeing it.
I read it, and it made no sense. It's a strawman comprised of petulance and putting words in other people's mouths. Thought maybe you could support your point.
Guess not. You'd have to abandon the whole binary-thinking division thing. Can't have that.
Dear Lutroo
Pogo is extremely intelligent, reasonable and willing to discuss in great detail.
But it helps if you both are speaking the same language.
This Biblical/Christian cultural tradition is like a "foreign tongue"
You are speaking with a secular gentile who responds to God's
"natural laws of science and reason"; it helps to explain in practical terms, not symbolic.
The Bible comes across as symbolic to people who don't follow all of that.
It isn't that Pogo is dumb, closeminded, or has ego issues
because I have seen that is not the case with Pogo.
Maybe other people, but with Pogo, generally not.
I can help you translate back and forth, between secular
explanation and Christian/Biblical equivalents of the same concept.
It is more a language/cultural barrier that shapes our whole thinking.
Our ways of understanding are more attached to words and personal/emotional
experienced associated with words, so it can take several layers of
working through in order to get what each other means by where we are coming from.
It is not "dumbing things down" to spell them out in secular terms.
It's actually quite challenging and requires much patience
and intellectual agility to translate back and forth.
Remember the Bible says that if two people are talking in tongues,
let a third interpret. I can try to help with some of that, but it is up to
you and Pogo if the equivalents and meaning are close enough,
or if the communication and concepts still aren't coming across clearly.
Do you want to give it a try, Pogo is very sharp and willing to
reason things out. At least you both are honest, and if you just
don't get what each other is saying, you'll admit that. Can we try?
Redemption—the most important of all gospel truths—is at once the sweetest note in the song of Bible believers and a favorite target for the derision of Bible deniers. It offends the pride of fallen men to learn that they need to be redeemed, but it rejoices the souls of regenerate men to know their need has been graciously met.
And this is why the Gospel of Christ is so hated by many. They hate it because they refuse to admit that they are not good enough to make it to Heaven on their own. They will come up with all kinds of excuses, but the root cause is PRIDE. Always has been. Always will be.
Many will even tell you that they do not believe in God. This is not so, for the most part. Sure, there are those who have not made up their minds yet. But others have.
These unregenerate souls have rejected God, and the sacrifice that His Son made for us. These people are to be pitied above all others, because having known Christ, they have spit in His face and rejected the most precious gift ever offered. The gift of REDEMPTION.
Today is the day of Salvation.
If you are not saved, and would like to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, it is very simple to do.
First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.
Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.
Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you. And here is how you do this. The words aren't really that important. It is your intent that matters. It goes something like this.
View attachment 76409
No one pays for you sins except you, don't put your sins on a poor dead man.
Penelope and Pogo
When a rapist doesn't forgive the past, the sins and demons can be dumped on an innocent victim. Look at victims of war, from chemical weapons or terrorism, or toxic waste they didn't cause -- people pay all the time for the sins and wrongs of others.
The point of praying for redemption in Christ is to break this cycle collectively for all humanity, which no individual has the power to do on our own. It takes greater grace and power to heal the sickness that causes people to abuse, terrorize, violate and kill others because they are still carrying issues from the past and projecting these forward until they get help.
The point is the vicious cycle of sin and karma repeats and projects forward
IF WE DO NOT FORGIVE AND HEAL THE SICKNESS OF THE PAST.
Yes, our children and future generations pay, and carry the debts, if we do not correct and fix our problems.
Karma - cause and effect.
We can either live by retributive justice, like the mad rapist or terrorists who "makes others pay," or we can live by Restorative Justice which is what Christ Jesus represents and brings to establish on earth -- ie we no longer "pay things back" but we pay benefits FORWARD to help others break the patterns of destructive abusive behavior. Through forgiveness, we receive and establish higher peace and justice by forgiving first and then wrongs, restoring healthy relations so we can work together on solutions, so the wrongs of the past can be righted second as a consequence.
Fell asleep at the second paragraph waiting for a point, but lemme sum it up for you very simply:
Version one:
First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.
Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.
Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you.
Version two:
MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY
See the difference?
Me neither.
These are the seeds of Intolerance.
Hi Pogo Let me translate into secular terms and natural laws
1. IF You continue the way of RETRIBUTION
then if you live by the sword you die by the sword
You get the justice you give.
So if you do not let go and forgive the wrongs of others,
these repeat and all humanity suffers them again and again.
We all suffer war which is hell on earth
2. IF we chose the path of Restorative Justice
which is the secular name and meaning of the spirit of Christ Jesus
THEN we forgive one another and correct wrongs together.
We bring new life and heal relations and can rebuild.
So that is the path, the choices in life.
No, you don't have to rely on Biblical/Christian terms
which I don't relate to either. I understand these in
terms of what they MEAN, and this meaning
and process is UNIVERSAL to all humanity,
both Jews/Christians/Believers under the church/scriptural laws and authority
AND the "secular Gentiles" like you and me under NATURAL laws of
reason, science and what solves problems in the REAL WORLD.
The meaning is universal, the symbolic language is relative.
We are not responsible for if we can't follow "foreign languages"
that don't make sense to us.
But the UNIVERSAL LAWS they represent,
we are responsible for as human beings who are
supposed to live in peace and by equal justice
if we are going to survive in the longrun. That part IS our responsibility
socially and collectively, which is what these religions attempt to
symbolize represent and teach using figurative language
Sorry to hear that you lack the intelligence to understand what I was getting at. I tried to dumb it down for people like you. I guess I'll have to use words of fewer syllables, or something. You might want to consider some remedial reading classes. I hear that they can really help.No one pays for you sins except you, don't put your sins on a poor dead man.
Penelope and Pogo
When a rapist doesn't forgive the past, the sins and demons can be dumped on an innocent victim. Look at victims of war, from chemical weapons or terrorism, or toxic waste they didn't cause -- people pay all the time for the sins and wrongs of others.
The point of praying for redemption in Christ is to break this cycle collectively for all humanity, which no individual has the power to do on our own. It takes greater grace and power to heal the sickness that causes people to abuse, terrorize, violate and kill others because they are still carrying issues from the past and projecting these forward until they get help.
The point is the vicious cycle of sin and karma repeats and projects forward
IF WE DO NOT FORGIVE AND HEAL THE SICKNESS OF THE PAST.
Yes, our children and future generations pay, and carry the debts, if we do not correct and fix our problems.
Karma - cause and effect.
We can either live by retributive justice, like the mad rapist or terrorists who makes others pay,
or we can live by Restorative Justice which is what Christ Jesus represents and brings to establish on earth.
Through forgiveness, we receive this higher peace and justice by forgiving first and then wrongs can be righted second as a consequence.
Correct me, if I'm mistaken, but your question was why do people hate it? I answered that in the OP. You might want to take another look at it, assuming you read it in the first place.If you had been paying attention, you would have noticed that I already answered your question.
Maybe you sent it to Guno. I'm not seeing it.
I read it, and it made no sense. It's a strawman comprised of petulance and putting words in other people's mouths. Thought maybe you could support your point.
Guess not. You'd have to abandon the whole binary-thinking division thing. Can't have that.
Dear Lutroo
Pogo is extremely intelligent, reasonable and willing to discuss in great detail.
But it helps if you both are speaking the same language.
This Biblical/Christian cultural tradition is like a "foreign tongue"
You are speaking with a secular gentile who responds to God's
"natural laws of science and reason"; it helps to explain in practical terms, not symbolic.
The Bible comes across as symbolic to people who don't follow all of that.
It isn't that Pogo is dumb, closeminded, or has ego issues
because I have seen that is not the case with Pogo.
Maybe other people, but with Pogo, generally not.
I can help you translate back and forth, between secular
explanation and Christian/Biblical equivalents of the same concept.
It is more a language/cultural barrier that shapes our whole thinking.
Our ways of understanding are more attached to words and personal/emotional
experienced associated with words, so it can take several layers of
working through in order to get what each other means by where we are coming from.
It is not "dumbing things down" to spell them out in secular terms.
It's actually quite challenging and requires much patience
and intellectual agility to translate back and forth.
Remember the Bible says that if two people are talking in tongues,
let a third interpret. I can try to help with some of that, but it is up to
you and Pogo if the equivalents and meaning are close enough,
or if the communication and concepts still aren't coming across clearly.
Do you want to give it a try, Pogo is very sharp and willing to
reason things out. At least you both are honest, and if you just
don't get what each other is saying, you'll admit that. Can we try?
Let's clarify something here. Were you implying that Jesus is not the way the truth and life? Are you saying that He did not did and rise from the grave, conquering death in the process, so that we could have life? Is that what you're saying?Redemption—the most important of all gospel truths—is at once the sweetest note in the song of Bible believers and a favorite target for the derision of Bible deniers. It offends the pride of fallen men to learn that they need to be redeemed, but it rejoices the souls of regenerate men to know their need has been graciously met.
And this is why the Gospel of Christ is so hated by many. They hate it because they refuse to admit that they are not good enough to make it to Heaven on their own. They will come up with all kinds of excuses, but the root cause is PRIDE. Always has been. Always will be.
Many will even tell you that they do not believe in God. This is not so, for the most part. Sure, there are those who have not made up their minds yet. But others have.
These unregenerate souls have rejected God, and the sacrifice that His Son made for us. These people are to be pitied above all others, because having known Christ, they have spit in His face and rejected the most precious gift ever offered. The gift of REDEMPTION.
Today is the day of Salvation.
If you are not saved, and would like to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, it is very simple to do.
First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.
Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.
Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you. And here is how you do this. The words aren't really that important. It is your intent that matters. It goes something like this.
View attachment 76409
No one pays for you sins except you, don't put your sins on a poor dead man.
OK. Let's back track. Do you believe in God? By God, I mean the Creator of everything. The power that all of existence depends on? We need to find a common thread to hang any discussion on. So answer this simple yes or no question, then we can proceed.Redemption—the most important of all gospel truths—is at once the sweetest note in the song of Bible believers and a favorite target for the derision of Bible deniers. It offends the pride of fallen men to learn that they need to be redeemed, but it rejoices the souls of regenerate men to know their need has been graciously met.
And this is why the Gospel of Christ is so hated by many. They hate it because they refuse to admit that they are not good enough to make it to Heaven on their own. They will come up with all kinds of excuses, but the root cause is PRIDE. Always has been. Always will be.
Many will even tell you that they do not believe in God. This is not so, for the most part. Sure, there are those who have not made up their minds yet. But others have.
These unregenerate souls have rejected God, and the sacrifice that His Son made for us. These people are to be pitied above all others, because having known Christ, they have spit in His face and rejected the most precious gift ever offered. The gift of REDEMPTION.
Today is the day of Salvation.
If you are not saved, and would like to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, it is very simple to do.
First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.
Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.
Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you. And here is how you do this. The words aren't really that important. It is your intent that matters. It goes something like this.
View attachment 76409
No one pays for you sins except you, don't put your sins on a poor dead man.
Penelope and Pogo
When a rapist doesn't forgive the past, the sins and demons can be dumped on an innocent victim. Look at victims of war, from chemical weapons or terrorism, or toxic waste they didn't cause -- people pay all the time for the sins and wrongs of others.
The point of praying for redemption in Christ is to break this cycle collectively for all humanity, which no individual has the power to do on our own. It takes greater grace and power to heal the sickness that causes people to abuse, terrorize, violate and kill others because they are still carrying issues from the past and projecting these forward until they get help.
The point is the vicious cycle of sin and karma repeats and projects forward
IF WE DO NOT FORGIVE AND HEAL THE SICKNESS OF THE PAST.
Yes, our children and future generations pay, and carry the debts, if we do not correct and fix our problems.
Karma - cause and effect.
We can either live by retributive justice, like the mad rapist or terrorists who "makes others pay," or we can live by Restorative Justice which is what Christ Jesus represents and brings to establish on earth -- ie we no longer "pay things back" but we pay benefits FORWARD to help others break the patterns of destructive abusive behavior. Through forgiveness, we receive and establish higher peace and justice by forgiving first and then wrongs, restoring healthy relations so we can work together on solutions, so the wrongs of the past can be righted second as a consequence.
Fell asleep at the second paragraph waiting for a point, but lemme sum it up for you very simply:
Version one:
First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.
Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.
Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you.
Version two:
MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY
See the difference?
Me neither.
These are the seeds of Intolerance.
Hi Pogo Let me translate into secular terms and natural laws
1. IF You continue the way of RETRIBUTION
then if you live by the sword you die by the sword
You get the justice you give.
So if you do not let go and forgive the wrongs of others,
these repeat and all humanity suffers them again and again.
We all suffer war which is hell on earth
2. IF we chose the path of Restorative Justice
which is the secular name and meaning of the spirit of Christ Jesus
THEN we forgive one another and correct wrongs together.
We bring new life and heal relations and can rebuild.
So that is the path, the choices in life.
No, you don't have to rely on Biblical/Christian terms
which I don't relate to either. I understand these in
terms of what they MEAN, and this meaning
and process is UNIVERSAL to all humanity,
both Jews/Christians/Believers under the church/scriptural laws and authority
AND the "secular Gentiles" like you and me under NATURAL laws of
reason, science and what solves problems in the REAL WORLD.
The meaning is universal, the symbolic language is relative.
We are not responsible for if we can't follow "foreign languages"
that don't make sense to us.
But the UNIVERSAL LAWS they represent,
we are responsible for as human beings who are
supposed to live in peace and by equal justice
if we are going to survive in the longrun. That part IS our responsibility
socially and collectively, which is what these religions attempt to
symbolize represent and teach using figurative language
That's a lot of wind to blow away the phrases I highlighted, which was, again, "YOU MUST". That's a kind of rhetorical fascism, which is why I observe at the end, "these are the seeds of Intolerance". It begins with this binary declaration of "us and them" and "us" is right and "them" is wrong, and "our" way is the only way... "you must".
That's one level -- the verbs and the control-freakism. The inability to accept that, not to sound cliché, "there are many paths" and that someone else may just choose a different one, and that's none of his business.
Concerning his self-congratulatory exegesis on the concept of "redemption", putting words into the mouths of others he didn't bother to ask, the idea is not only a strawman but absurd on its face. For an example, America's very national pastime -- baseball -- is based around the concept. No one who appreciates the poetry of baseball "hates" the idea. It could hardly exist without it. Redemption is the flip side of forgiveness. We can't exist without them either.
That's why I posed the question on an absurd premise.
Redemption—the most important of all gospel truths—is at once the sweetest note in the song of Bible believers and a favorite target for the derision of Bible deniers. It offends the pride of fallen men to learn that they need to be redeemed, but it rejoices the souls of regenerate men to know their need has been graciously met.
And this is why the Gospel of Christ is so hated by many. They hate it because they refuse to admit that they are not good enough to make it to Heaven on their own. They will come up with all kinds of excuses, but the root cause is PRIDE. Always has been. Always will be.
Many will even tell you that they do not believe in God. This is not so, for the most part. Sure, there are those who have not made up their minds yet. But others have.
These unregenerate souls have rejected God, and the sacrifice that His Son made for us. These people are to be pitied above all others, because having known Christ, they have spit in His face and rejected the most precious gift ever offered. The gift of REDEMPTION.
Today is the day of Salvation.
If you are not saved, and would like to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, it is very simple to do.
First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.
Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.
Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you. And here is how you do this. The words aren't really that important. It is your intent that matters. It goes something like this.
View attachment 76409
No one pays for you sins except you, don't put your sins on a poor dead man.
Penelope and Pogo
When a rapist doesn't forgive the past, the sins and demons can be dumped on an innocent victim. Look at victims of war, from chemical weapons or terrorism, or toxic waste they didn't cause -- people pay all the time for the sins and wrongs of others.
The point of praying for redemption in Christ is to break this cycle collectively for all humanity, which no individual has the power to do on our own. It takes greater grace and power to heal the sickness that causes people to abuse, terrorize, violate and kill others because they are still carrying issues from the past and projecting these forward until they get help.
The point is the vicious cycle of sin and karma repeats and projects forward
IF WE DO NOT FORGIVE AND HEAL THE SICKNESS OF THE PAST.
Yes, our children and future generations pay, and carry the debts, if we do not correct and fix our problems.
Karma - cause and effect.
We can either live by retributive justice, like the mad rapist or terrorists who "makes others pay," or we can live by Restorative Justice which is what Christ Jesus represents and brings to establish on earth -- ie we no longer "pay things back" but we pay benefits FORWARD to help others break the patterns of destructive abusive behavior. Through forgiveness, we receive and establish higher peace and justice by forgiving first and then wrongs, restoring healthy relations so we can work together on solutions, so the wrongs of the past can be righted second as a consequence.
Fell asleep at the second paragraph waiting for a point, but lemme sum it up for you very simply:
Version one:
First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.
Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.
Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you.
Version two:
MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY
See the difference?
Me neither.
These are the seeds of Intolerance.
Hi Pogo Let me translate into secular terms and natural laws
1. IF You continue the way of RETRIBUTION
then if you live by the sword you die by the sword
You get the justice you give.
So if you do not let go and forgive the wrongs of others,
these repeat and all humanity suffers them again and again.
We all suffer war which is hell on earth
2. IF we chose the path of Restorative Justice
which is the secular name and meaning of the spirit of Christ Jesus
THEN we forgive one another and correct wrongs together.
We bring new life and heal relations and can rebuild.
So that is the path, the choices in life.
No, you don't have to rely on Biblical/Christian terms
which I don't relate to either. I understand these in
terms of what they MEAN, and this meaning
and process is UNIVERSAL to all humanity,
both Jews/Christians/Believers under the church/scriptural laws and authority
AND the "secular Gentiles" like you and me under NATURAL laws of
reason, science and what solves problems in the REAL WORLD.
The meaning is universal, the symbolic language is relative.
We are not responsible for if we can't follow "foreign languages"
that don't make sense to us.
But the UNIVERSAL LAWS they represent,
we are responsible for as human beings who are
supposed to live in peace and by equal justice
if we are going to survive in the longrun. That part IS our responsibility
socially and collectively, which is what these religions attempt to
symbolize represent and teach using figurative language
That's a lot of wind to blow away the phrases I highlighted, which was, again, "YOU MUST". That's a kind of rhetorical fascism, which is why I observe at the end, "these are the seeds of Intolerance". It begins with this binary declaration of "us and them" and "us" is right and "them" is wrong, and "our" way is the only way... "you must".
That's one level -- the verbs and the control-freakism. The inability to accept that, not to sound cliché, "there are many paths" and that someone else may just choose a different one, and that's none of his business.
Concerning his self-congratulatory exegesis on the concept of "redemption", putting words into the mouths of others he didn't bother to ask, the idea is not only a strawman but absurd on its face. For an example, America's very national pastime -- baseball -- is based around the concept. No one who appreciates the poetry of baseball "hates" the idea. It could hardly exist without it. Redemption is the flip side of forgiveness. We can't exist without them either.
That's why I posed the question on an absurd premise.
Dear Lutroo
Can we try to start here and translate into concepts that people might get who aren't coming from a Christian background, perspective or understanding. Please forgive if people don't understand, if this has never been explained to them in a way that made sense. if someone didn't understand Einstein's theories would you judge them for rejecting it as sounding like nonsense?
"Whoa" even my toddler mind thought --- "I wasn't there". That's the point where I got my first clue I was dealing with irrationality.
OK. Let's back track. Do you believe in God? By God, I mean the Creator of everything. The power that all of existence depends on? We need to find a common thread to hang any discussion on. So answer this simple yes or no question, then we can proceed.No one pays for you sins except you, don't put your sins on a poor dead man.
Penelope and Pogo
When a rapist doesn't forgive the past, the sins and demons can be dumped on an innocent victim. Look at victims of war, from chemical weapons or terrorism, or toxic waste they didn't cause -- people pay all the time for the sins and wrongs of others.
The point of praying for redemption in Christ is to break this cycle collectively for all humanity, which no individual has the power to do on our own. It takes greater grace and power to heal the sickness that causes people to abuse, terrorize, violate and kill others because they are still carrying issues from the past and projecting these forward until they get help.
The point is the vicious cycle of sin and karma repeats and projects forward
IF WE DO NOT FORGIVE AND HEAL THE SICKNESS OF THE PAST.
Yes, our children and future generations pay, and carry the debts, if we do not correct and fix our problems.
Karma - cause and effect.
We can either live by retributive justice, like the mad rapist or terrorists who "makes others pay," or we can live by Restorative Justice which is what Christ Jesus represents and brings to establish on earth -- ie we no longer "pay things back" but we pay benefits FORWARD to help others break the patterns of destructive abusive behavior. Through forgiveness, we receive and establish higher peace and justice by forgiving first and then wrongs, restoring healthy relations so we can work together on solutions, so the wrongs of the past can be righted second as a consequence.
Fell asleep at the second paragraph waiting for a point, but lemme sum it up for you very simply:
Version one:
First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.
Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.
Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you.
Version two:
MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY
See the difference?
Me neither.
These are the seeds of Intolerance.
Hi Pogo Let me translate into secular terms and natural laws
1. IF You continue the way of RETRIBUTION
then if you live by the sword you die by the sword
You get the justice you give.
So if you do not let go and forgive the wrongs of others,
these repeat and all humanity suffers them again and again.
We all suffer war which is hell on earth
2. IF we chose the path of Restorative Justice
which is the secular name and meaning of the spirit of Christ Jesus
THEN we forgive one another and correct wrongs together.
We bring new life and heal relations and can rebuild.
So that is the path, the choices in life.
No, you don't have to rely on Biblical/Christian terms
which I don't relate to either. I understand these in
terms of what they MEAN, and this meaning
and process is UNIVERSAL to all humanity,
both Jews/Christians/Believers under the church/scriptural laws and authority
AND the "secular Gentiles" like you and me under NATURAL laws of
reason, science and what solves problems in the REAL WORLD.
The meaning is universal, the symbolic language is relative.
We are not responsible for if we can't follow "foreign languages"
that don't make sense to us.
But the UNIVERSAL LAWS they represent,
we are responsible for as human beings who are
supposed to live in peace and by equal justice
if we are going to survive in the longrun. That part IS our responsibility
socially and collectively, which is what these religions attempt to
symbolize represent and teach using figurative language
That's a lot of wind to blow away the phrases I highlighted, which was, again, "YOU MUST". That's a kind of rhetorical fascism, which is why I observe at the end, "these are the seeds of Intolerance". It begins with this binary declaration of "us and them" and "us" is right and "them" is wrong, and "our" way is the only way... "you must".
That's one level -- the verbs and the control-freakism. The inability to accept that, not to sound cliché, "there are many paths" and that someone else may just choose a different one, and that's none of his business.
Concerning his self-congratulatory exegesis on the concept of "redemption", putting words into the mouths of others he didn't bother to ask, the idea is not only a strawman but absurd on its face. For an example, America's very national pastime -- baseball -- is based around the concept. No one who appreciates the poetry of baseball "hates" the idea. It could hardly exist without it. Redemption is the flip side of forgiveness. We can't exist without them either.
That's why I posed the question on an absurd premise.
OK. Let's back track. Do you believe in God? By God, I mean the Creator of everything. The power that all of existence depends on? We need to find a common thread to hang any discussion on. So answer this simple yes or no question, then we can proceed.No one pays for you sins except you, don't put your sins on a poor dead man.
Penelope and Pogo
When a rapist doesn't forgive the past, the sins and demons can be dumped on an innocent victim. Look at victims of war, from chemical weapons or terrorism, or toxic waste they didn't cause -- people pay all the time for the sins and wrongs of others.
The point of praying for redemption in Christ is to break this cycle collectively for all humanity, which no individual has the power to do on our own. It takes greater grace and power to heal the sickness that causes people to abuse, terrorize, violate and kill others because they are still carrying issues from the past and projecting these forward until they get help.
The point is the vicious cycle of sin and karma repeats and projects forward
IF WE DO NOT FORGIVE AND HEAL THE SICKNESS OF THE PAST.
Yes, our children and future generations pay, and carry the debts, if we do not correct and fix our problems.
Karma - cause and effect.
We can either live by retributive justice, like the mad rapist or terrorists who "makes others pay," or we can live by Restorative Justice which is what Christ Jesus represents and brings to establish on earth -- ie we no longer "pay things back" but we pay benefits FORWARD to help others break the patterns of destructive abusive behavior. Through forgiveness, we receive and establish higher peace and justice by forgiving first and then wrongs, restoring healthy relations so we can work together on solutions, so the wrongs of the past can be righted second as a consequence.
Fell asleep at the second paragraph waiting for a point, but lemme sum it up for you very simply:
Version one:
First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.
Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.
Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you.
Version two:
MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY
See the difference?
Me neither.
These are the seeds of Intolerance.
Hi Pogo Let me translate into secular terms and natural laws
1. IF You continue the way of RETRIBUTION
then if you live by the sword you die by the sword
You get the justice you give.
So if you do not let go and forgive the wrongs of others,
these repeat and all humanity suffers them again and again.
We all suffer war which is hell on earth
2. IF we chose the path of Restorative Justice
which is the secular name and meaning of the spirit of Christ Jesus
THEN we forgive one another and correct wrongs together.
We bring new life and heal relations and can rebuild.
So that is the path, the choices in life.
No, you don't have to rely on Biblical/Christian terms
which I don't relate to either. I understand these in
terms of what they MEAN, and this meaning
and process is UNIVERSAL to all humanity,
both Jews/Christians/Believers under the church/scriptural laws and authority
AND the "secular Gentiles" like you and me under NATURAL laws of
reason, science and what solves problems in the REAL WORLD.
The meaning is universal, the symbolic language is relative.
We are not responsible for if we can't follow "foreign languages"
that don't make sense to us.
But the UNIVERSAL LAWS they represent,
we are responsible for as human beings who are
supposed to live in peace and by equal justice
if we are going to survive in the longrun. That part IS our responsibility
socially and collectively, which is what these religions attempt to
symbolize represent and teach using figurative language
That's a lot of wind to blow away the phrases I highlighted, which was, again, "YOU MUST". That's a kind of rhetorical fascism, which is why I observe at the end, "these are the seeds of Intolerance". It begins with this binary declaration of "us and them" and "us" is right and "them" is wrong, and "our" way is the only way... "you must".
That's one level -- the verbs and the control-freakism. The inability to accept that, not to sound cliché, "there are many paths" and that someone else may just choose a different one, and that's none of his business.
Concerning his self-congratulatory exegesis on the concept of "redemption", putting words into the mouths of others he didn't bother to ask, the idea is not only a strawman but absurd on its face. For an example, America's very national pastime -- baseball -- is based around the concept. No one who appreciates the poetry of baseball "hates" the idea. It could hardly exist without it. Redemption is the flip side of forgiveness. We can't exist without them either.
That's why I posed the question on an absurd premise.
Dear Lutroo
Can we try to start here and translate into concepts that people might get who aren't coming from a Christian background, perspective or understanding. Please forgive if people don't understand, if this has never been explained to them in a way that made sense. if someone didn't understand Einstein's theories would you judge them for rejecting it as sounding like nonsense?
Let's clarify something from the outset --- I absolutely *am* from a Chrisitan background, perspective and understanding. I was indoctrinated in it starting at age 5.
And I rejected it almost immediately. Know why?
At that age things were pretty simple..... they began with Adam and Eve as the first humans. Not knowing any better about biology and being a toddler, I accepted this. They went on to describe the snake and the apple and how God cast them out. "Too bad for them" I thought. Then they committed a fatal error. They continued, "and since then we're all born with Original Sin on our souls".
Pogo what do you believe is the ultimate driving force in life.
Is it something positive, negative or neutral/universal/both?
Survival and procreation I suppose, just like all the other species. Not that complex.
Well, golly gee. I guess that means that NOTHING created it. It just sprang into existence all by itself. How could I have missed it?OK. Let's back track. Do you believe in God? By God, I mean the Creator of everything. The power that all of existence depends on? We need to find a common thread to hang any discussion on. So answer this simple yes or no question, then we can proceed.Penelope and Pogo
When a rapist doesn't forgive the past, the sins and demons can be dumped on an innocent victim. Look at victims of war, from chemical weapons or terrorism, or toxic waste they didn't cause -- people pay all the time for the sins and wrongs of others.
The point of praying for redemption in Christ is to break this cycle collectively for all humanity, which no individual has the power to do on our own. It takes greater grace and power to heal the sickness that causes people to abuse, terrorize, violate and kill others because they are still carrying issues from the past and projecting these forward until they get help.
The point is the vicious cycle of sin and karma repeats and projects forward
IF WE DO NOT FORGIVE AND HEAL THE SICKNESS OF THE PAST.
Yes, our children and future generations pay, and carry the debts, if we do not correct and fix our problems.
Karma - cause and effect.
We can either live by retributive justice, like the mad rapist or terrorists who "makes others pay," or we can live by Restorative Justice which is what Christ Jesus represents and brings to establish on earth -- ie we no longer "pay things back" but we pay benefits FORWARD to help others break the patterns of destructive abusive behavior. Through forgiveness, we receive and establish higher peace and justice by forgiving first and then wrongs, restoring healthy relations so we can work together on solutions, so the wrongs of the past can be righted second as a consequence.
Fell asleep at the second paragraph waiting for a point, but lemme sum it up for you very simply:
Version one:
First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.
Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.
Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you.
Version two:
MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY
See the difference?
Me neither.
These are the seeds of Intolerance.
Hi Pogo Let me translate into secular terms and natural laws
1. IF You continue the way of RETRIBUTION
then if you live by the sword you die by the sword
You get the justice you give.
So if you do not let go and forgive the wrongs of others,
these repeat and all humanity suffers them again and again.
We all suffer war which is hell on earth
2. IF we chose the path of Restorative Justice
which is the secular name and meaning of the spirit of Christ Jesus
THEN we forgive one another and correct wrongs together.
We bring new life and heal relations and can rebuild.
So that is the path, the choices in life.
No, you don't have to rely on Biblical/Christian terms
which I don't relate to either. I understand these in
terms of what they MEAN, and this meaning
and process is UNIVERSAL to all humanity,
both Jews/Christians/Believers under the church/scriptural laws and authority
AND the "secular Gentiles" like you and me under NATURAL laws of
reason, science and what solves problems in the REAL WORLD.
The meaning is universal, the symbolic language is relative.
We are not responsible for if we can't follow "foreign languages"
that don't make sense to us.
But the UNIVERSAL LAWS they represent,
we are responsible for as human beings who are
supposed to live in peace and by equal justice
if we are going to survive in the longrun. That part IS our responsibility
socially and collectively, which is what these religions attempt to
symbolize represent and teach using figurative language
That's a lot of wind to blow away the phrases I highlighted, which was, again, "YOU MUST". That's a kind of rhetorical fascism, which is why I observe at the end, "these are the seeds of Intolerance". It begins with this binary declaration of "us and them" and "us" is right and "them" is wrong, and "our" way is the only way... "you must".
That's one level -- the verbs and the control-freakism. The inability to accept that, not to sound cliché, "there are many paths" and that someone else may just choose a different one, and that's none of his business.
Concerning his self-congratulatory exegesis on the concept of "redemption", putting words into the mouths of others he didn't bother to ask, the idea is not only a strawman but absurd on its face. For an example, America's very national pastime -- baseball -- is based around the concept. No one who appreciates the poetry of baseball "hates" the idea. It could hardly exist without it. Redemption is the flip side of forgiveness. We can't exist without them either.
That's why I posed the question on an absurd premise.
I've heard the argument made that goes "look at all this around you -- the sky, the trees, the birds, the stars.... isn't it obvious that some entity had to purposely create this?"
Well as a matter of fact, since you ask..... no, it isn't. Not at all.
OK. Let's back track. Do you believe in God? By God, I mean the Creator of everything. The power that all of existence depends on? We need to find a common thread to hang any discussion on. So answer this simple yes or no question, then we can proceed.Penelope and Pogo
When a rapist doesn't forgive the past, the sins and demons can be dumped on an innocent victim. Look at victims of war, from chemical weapons or terrorism, or toxic waste they didn't cause -- people pay all the time for the sins and wrongs of others.
The point of praying for redemption in Christ is to break this cycle collectively for all humanity, which no individual has the power to do on our own. It takes greater grace and power to heal the sickness that causes people to abuse, terrorize, violate and kill others because they are still carrying issues from the past and projecting these forward until they get help.
The point is the vicious cycle of sin and karma repeats and projects forward
IF WE DO NOT FORGIVE AND HEAL THE SICKNESS OF THE PAST.
Yes, our children and future generations pay, and carry the debts, if we do not correct and fix our problems.
Karma - cause and effect.
We can either live by retributive justice, like the mad rapist or terrorists who "makes others pay," or we can live by Restorative Justice which is what Christ Jesus represents and brings to establish on earth -- ie we no longer "pay things back" but we pay benefits FORWARD to help others break the patterns of destructive abusive behavior. Through forgiveness, we receive and establish higher peace and justice by forgiving first and then wrongs, restoring healthy relations so we can work together on solutions, so the wrongs of the past can be righted second as a consequence.
Fell asleep at the second paragraph waiting for a point, but lemme sum it up for you very simply:
Version one:
First, you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He died and rose from the grave to save us from our sin.
Second, you must admit that you are a sinner, and that you are unworthy to stand in the presence of God. All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God.
Third, you must ask God, in Jesus name, to forgive you, to come into your heart and save you.
Version two:
MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY
See the difference?
Me neither.
These are the seeds of Intolerance.
Hi Pogo Let me translate into secular terms and natural laws
1. IF You continue the way of RETRIBUTION
then if you live by the sword you die by the sword
You get the justice you give.
So if you do not let go and forgive the wrongs of others,
these repeat and all humanity suffers them again and again.
We all suffer war which is hell on earth
2. IF we chose the path of Restorative Justice
which is the secular name and meaning of the spirit of Christ Jesus
THEN we forgive one another and correct wrongs together.
We bring new life and heal relations and can rebuild.
So that is the path, the choices in life.
No, you don't have to rely on Biblical/Christian terms
which I don't relate to either. I understand these in
terms of what they MEAN, and this meaning
and process is UNIVERSAL to all humanity,
both Jews/Christians/Believers under the church/scriptural laws and authority
AND the "secular Gentiles" like you and me under NATURAL laws of
reason, science and what solves problems in the REAL WORLD.
The meaning is universal, the symbolic language is relative.
We are not responsible for if we can't follow "foreign languages"
that don't make sense to us.
But the UNIVERSAL LAWS they represent,
we are responsible for as human beings who are
supposed to live in peace and by equal justice
if we are going to survive in the longrun. That part IS our responsibility
socially and collectively, which is what these religions attempt to
symbolize represent and teach using figurative language
That's a lot of wind to blow away the phrases I highlighted, which was, again, "YOU MUST". That's a kind of rhetorical fascism, which is why I observe at the end, "these are the seeds of Intolerance". It begins with this binary declaration of "us and them" and "us" is right and "them" is wrong, and "our" way is the only way... "you must".
That's one level -- the verbs and the control-freakism. The inability to accept that, not to sound cliché, "there are many paths" and that someone else may just choose a different one, and that's none of his business.
Concerning his self-congratulatory exegesis on the concept of "redemption", putting words into the mouths of others he didn't bother to ask, the idea is not only a strawman but absurd on its face. For an example, America's very national pastime -- baseball -- is based around the concept. No one who appreciates the poetry of baseball "hates" the idea. It could hardly exist without it. Redemption is the flip side of forgiveness. We can't exist without them either.
That's why I posed the question on an absurd premise.
I've heard the argument made that goes "look at all this around you -- the sky, the trees, the birds, the stars.... isn't it obvious that some entity had to purposely create this?"
Well as a matter of fact..... no, it isn't.
Pogo what do you believe is the ultimate driving force in life.
Is it something positive, negative or neutral/universal/both?
It occurs to me that some people and some organizations go to great lengths to make simple things a lot more complicated than they are.
Dear Pogo
Do you agree that people who LIVE by the practice of imposing this on others as "YOU MUST" are then bound
by the same laws and are subject to be judged under this authoritarian system of "YOU MUST".
Dear Pogo
Do you agree that all humans are biased and conditioned to favor or reject things according to what experiences we are born into?
So if you had this influence early on and rejected it,
doesn't that show how biases happen. And this makes us treat people as unequal. If you reject Christianity
and have a bias against it, you will not be able to understand and love all people equally. Nobody can!
Well, golly gee. I guess that means that NOTHING created it. It just sprang into existence all by itself. How could I have missed it?OK. Let's back track. Do you believe in God? By God, I mean the Creator of everything. The power that all of existence depends on? We need to find a common thread to hang any discussion on. So answer this simple yes or no question, then we can proceed.Fell asleep at the second paragraph waiting for a point, but lemme sum it up for you very simply:
Version one:
Version two:
See the difference?
Me neither.
These are the seeds of Intolerance.
Hi Pogo Let me translate into secular terms and natural laws
1. IF You continue the way of RETRIBUTION
then if you live by the sword you die by the sword
You get the justice you give.
So if you do not let go and forgive the wrongs of others,
these repeat and all humanity suffers them again and again.
We all suffer war which is hell on earth
2. IF we chose the path of Restorative Justice
which is the secular name and meaning of the spirit of Christ Jesus
THEN we forgive one another and correct wrongs together.
We bring new life and heal relations and can rebuild.
So that is the path, the choices in life.
No, you don't have to rely on Biblical/Christian terms
which I don't relate to either. I understand these in
terms of what they MEAN, and this meaning
and process is UNIVERSAL to all humanity,
both Jews/Christians/Believers under the church/scriptural laws and authority
AND the "secular Gentiles" like you and me under NATURAL laws of
reason, science and what solves problems in the REAL WORLD.
The meaning is universal, the symbolic language is relative.
We are not responsible for if we can't follow "foreign languages"
that don't make sense to us.
But the UNIVERSAL LAWS they represent,
we are responsible for as human beings who are
supposed to live in peace and by equal justice
if we are going to survive in the longrun. That part IS our responsibility
socially and collectively, which is what these religions attempt to
symbolize represent and teach using figurative language
That's a lot of wind to blow away the phrases I highlighted, which was, again, "YOU MUST". That's a kind of rhetorical fascism, which is why I observe at the end, "these are the seeds of Intolerance". It begins with this binary declaration of "us and them" and "us" is right and "them" is wrong, and "our" way is the only way... "you must".
That's one level -- the verbs and the control-freakism. The inability to accept that, not to sound cliché, "there are many paths" and that someone else may just choose a different one, and that's none of his business.
Concerning his self-congratulatory exegesis on the concept of "redemption", putting words into the mouths of others he didn't bother to ask, the idea is not only a strawman but absurd on its face. For an example, America's very national pastime -- baseball -- is based around the concept. No one who appreciates the poetry of baseball "hates" the idea. It could hardly exist without it. Redemption is the flip side of forgiveness. We can't exist without them either.
That's why I posed the question on an absurd premise.
I've heard the argument made that goes "look at all this around you -- the sky, the trees, the birds, the stars.... isn't it obvious that some entity had to purposely create this?"
Well as a matter of fact, since you ask..... no, it isn't. Not at all.
