The NEWEST Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Hollie]

Nice duck. I anticipated that would be your response.

 

[rylah]

The land was ceded to Palestine. The Palestinians got the nationality and the sovereignty.

No land was ever ceded to Palestine,
the Ottomans simply gave up claims to all territory they've lost,
Palestinian nationality and sovereignty is that of the Jewish nation.

San Remo: The Forgotten Milestone to the Liberation and Creation of Israel

Commemorating the San Remo Conference should be more than a mere remembrance. It enjoins us to consider the legal reach of the binding decisions made in 1920 and to ensure that we do not entertain incompatible positions when political expediency clashes with unassailable rights enshrined in...

israelforever.org

 

[rylah]

Howard Grief

Can you actually refute Howard Grief?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Can you actually refute Howard Grief?

San Remo was a political wish list. The Treaty of Lausanne was a legal document that closely followed international law. According to the rule of nationality and state succession in the 1907 Hague Regulations, the land is ceded to the people who live there and they are the nationals of that territory. Foreigners are not included in that designation. Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne and the Palestine Citizenship Order of 1925 followed these principles.

Note that when Britain pulled the Mandate out of Palestine no land was ceded to a Jewish state. At the end of the Mandate Israel had nothing.

 

[rylah]

San Remo was a political wish list. The Treaty of Lausanne was a legal document that closely followed international law. According to the rule of nationality and state succession in the 1907 Hague Regulations, the land is ceded to the people who live there and they are the nationals of that territory. Foreigners are not included in that designation. Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne and the Palestine Citizenship Order of 1925 followed these principles.

Note that when Britain pulled the Mandate out of Palestine no land was ceded to a Jewish state. At the end of the Mandate Israel had nothing.

The Treaty of Lausanne doesn't mention Palestine.

International Law is a legal contract between nations.
The San Remo Resolution was based on Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations,
precursor of the UN, and further ratified by the League of Nations in the creation of the Mandate govt.

In fact,
international law only mentions
'Palestine' in reference to the Jewish nation.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Treaty of Lausanne doesn't mention Palestine.

It doesn't mention Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan, or Iraq either.

What is your point?

 

[Hollie]

It doesn't mention Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan, or Iraq either.

What is your point?

So.. you don’t have a point.

 

[rylah]

It doesn't mention Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan, or Iraq either.

What is your point?

So the Treaty of Lausanne cannot be used as example of territory transfer to any Arab state.

Does a treaty exist supporting your claim about Arab Palestine?

 

[rylah]

 

[P F Tinmore]

So the Treaty of Lausanne cannot be used as example of territory transfer to any Arab state.

Does a treaty exist supporting your claim about Arab Palestine?

You have a terminal case of cognitive dissonance.

 

[rylah]

You have a terminal case of cognitive dissonance.

It's not about me, but the Arab inability to defend their nonsense claims.

Why can't you find a single legal reference of land transferred to any Arab state?

 

[P F Tinmore]

It's not about me, but the Arab inability to defend their nonsense claims.

Why can't you find a single legal reference of land transferred to any Arab state?

I did. I just can't find were any land was ever transferred to Israel.

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ Jews and Muslims lived in peace before Israel? ]

A number of British newspapers published the following story in August, 1873:

Outrages on Jews at Fez.

The Jewish Chronicle has received the following account of acts of torture inflicted upon Jews by Arabs at Fez.

A medical man had ordered, a few weeks ago, a poor Jewish patient to use a vapour bath. But since the conveniences for such baths do not exist in the Jewish quarters of the city, and as the Jews are actually forbidden to construct the necessary apparatus for indulging in the luxury of a vapour bath, the invalid applied to the Mahommedan bath-keeper, who yielded to the entreaties of the poor man and allowed him to enter with two other Jews by whom he was supported as he walked in. But they were at once betrayed.

A furious mob surrounded the men, who were throttled by the soldiers, dragged along the streets, beaten with sticks, knocked with hammers, cut with knives, and pelted with stones, so that their track was lined with blood.

When the wounded creatures at length presented themselves before the governor, one of them had lost an eye, and the other had his head broken open. This representative of the Sultan caused them at once to receive 500 strokes with a rod and to be thrown into prison. They were held guilty of having desecrated an Arab bath, for which delinquency it was expected that the Sultan would order that they should be decapitated..

But at the same time, another story was published in quite a few US newspapers, in the wake of the news that some hotels were banning Jews:

Messenger. "No Jews Admitted."

A lively correspondent of the Tribune writes thus from Saratoga: "You've got all the 'Jews' over with you," said a gentleman from one of the other hotels to me last evening; "they shut down on them over at our house; won't have 'em." I like that; proscription of all kind is good. I like to hear one man say that he hates an Englishman, and another, that he can't stand an Irishman. For it shows that their educations are not finished; each has something further in life to look forward to. If they live long enough they will come to the conclusion arrived at by the great French traveller, who declared that after visiting every part of the known world, he made up his mind that it was inhabited only by men and women.

But religious proscription is especially pleasing to the naked eye. So far as business dealing is concerned, an officer of one otf your most prominent banks, to whom I repeated the observation, remarked that, of all men who had dealings with his bank, he found Jews the most honest, the most faithful in the performance of the very spirit of their contracts, the most trustworthy in all money transactions. And is it not so? Among the paupers who fill our streets and our asylums, our hospitals, anu our jails, do you find a Jew? They feed their own poor. and take care of their own sick. Like the best modern engines, they consume their own smoke and rubbish.

But, aside from these material facts, there is a poetry and a grandness about the Jewish character which has always moved me to reverence. A nation without a country, a people without a home, flowing through and penetrating all nations, yet not commingling with a single one; preserving all their individualities, their religion, their language, their customs. intact; the same now as when, led by the cloud by day, and the pillar of lire at night, they went dry-shod through the cloven sea and encamped in the wilderness beneath the same stars which now stud the heavens. Show me a people like this in all history: a people around whom all the grand poetry of the Bible clusters: a people rich in traditions beyond all precedent, who have yet preserved the minutiae of those traditions, while dynasty after dynasty has crumbled around them, and nation after nation has faded from off the face of the earth; a people who have clung to the faith of their lathers, to the one God whom their fathers worshiped, asking no change and seeking no change, while creed has had its day, and decay and incessant wars over doctrinal points have desolated empires.

Mv sympathies in the play, let me confess,. have always been with Shylock. Houseless and homeless, spoiled of his wealth and robbed of his daughter, he is driven out in his old age to childless penury - and for what? Insulted and spat upon, his religion reviled, and his house dishonored, he took no revenge in cowardly murder after the Christian pattern; he sought but the fulfilment of a contract, the terms of which he had complied with, and would have complied with, probably, had positions been reversed. Would not Shylock, think you, have bared his breast to the knife in fulfillment of his bond without the spiritless fuss that Antonio made about it? Such is Jewish faith; depend upon it the despised Jew would not have sheltered himself from the fulfillment of a bargain which he himself sought under the quibble about a drop of blood,

"Won't nave jews;" talk about "the best society of New York," you do not know what it is until you have mingled with Jews, gone among the Rabbis, sat at their feet, and, in admiration of manners and learning which pass all previous experience, of a gracious gentleness which makes the toleration afforded you by any other sect seem boorish rudeness, recognized a "society" to which few can hope permanently to attain, a courtesy which comes of the scholarship and culture oi thousands or years,

"Won't have Jews," indeed!

150 years ago: Muslim Jew-hatred in Morocco, philosemitism in the US

Blogging about Israel and the Arab world since, oh, forever.

elderofziyon.blogspot.com

 

[P F Tinmore]

Policy of Deceit: Britain and Palestine, 1914-1939

In this extract from his new book, Peter Shambrook shows that the evidence Britain included the Palestine region in its offer of an independent Arab state - long denied - is overwhelming

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[Sixties Fan]

 

[Sixties Fan]

 

[Sixties Fan]

Michael Davison
Retired Industrial Engineer and Production Manager in IsraelUpvoted by
Dave Hirsh

, MA HistoryAuthor has 9.5K answers and 33.7M answer viewsAug 9

The fact that there was no “Palestinian nation” living in the region at the time might have something to do with it.

This is what the region looked like under the Ottomans at the time Mark Twain went through the area:

As you can see, there is no “Palestine” on this map.

For centuries, since the fall of the Byzantines in the Middle East, “Palestine” was a geographic descriptor for an area that expanded or contracted, depending on who you were speaking to.

It could have been as small as Judea and Samaria, or as large as half of the Sinai Peninsula, all of Israel, the Gaza Strip, West Bank, Lebanon as far north as the Litani River, a similar section of Syria, all of Jordan and corners of Iraq and Saudi Arabia, to use their current names.

In 1919, when the British asked the Muslim and Christian Associations in “Palestine” to nominate Arab representatives for the Paris Peace Conference of 1920, this was their response:
“We consider ‘Palestine’ as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic, and geographical bonds.”

This concept continued at late as 1977, when Zuheir Muhsin, a senior member of the PLO’s Executive Council, said this in an interview with a Dutch Newspaper:

“There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are part of one people, the Arab nation. Look, I have relatives with Palestinian, Lebanese, Jordanian and Syrian citizenship. We are one people. Just for political reasons we carefully subscribe to our Palestinian identity, because it is of national importance for the Arabs to encourage the existence of the Palestinians against Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity is only there for tactical reasons. A Palestinian state is a new means of continuing the struggle against Israel and for Arab unity.
“A separate Palestinian entity must stand up for national rights in the then remaining occupied territories. The Jordanian government cannot speak on behalf of the Palestinians in Israel, Lebanon or Syria. Jordan is a state with certain borders. It cannot claim Haifa or Jaffa, for example, while I am entitled to Haifa, Jaffa, Jerusalem and Beersheva. Jordan can only speak on behalf of the Jordanians and the Palestinians in Jordan. The Palestinian state would have the right to to act on behalf of all Palestinians in the Arab world and elsewhere. Once we have acquired all our rights throughout Palestine, we must not delay the reunification of Jordan and Palestine for a moment.”

James Dorsey, “We are only Palestinians for political reasons”, Interview with PLO Executive Council member Zuheir Muhsin in the Dutch newspaper Trouw, March 31, 1977.

No discrepancy, just a drastic change in the narrative that doesn’t fit the facts of the issue.
The “Palestinian cause” has never been about the truth.

What explains the discrepancy between Mark Twain's description of Palestine as a desert and desolate place in the late 19th century, and ...

Answer (1 of 22): The real question is why one would believe Twain at all. A census usually requires many many people, with the authority of force, and a good understanding of the land. Mark Twain was many things, but not a demographer or a professional census taker. He was mostly a writer of S...

www.quora.com

 

[rylah]

 

[rylah]

 

[P F Tinmore]

Why Palestine Matters​