The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[toobfreak]

The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

BULLSHIT. It wasn't until after the 2nd bomb that the emperor was convinced to surrender. Easy to speak in 20/20 hindsight almost 75 years after the fact. The truth is those bombs saved American lives and set the pattern by which all future nuclear war or the possibility of it is measured. Take your blame-America-First mentality and shove it up the cornhole.

are all conservatives deranged?

are there any at all who can think straight?


even one?

"Take your blame-America-First mentality and shove it up the cornhole"

This is not and has not been an attack on America or blaming America...

this is a discussion about the morality of nuking 2 cities, at least one of which was NOT a military target.

I, personally, accept the dropping of the bombs......to shorten the war....I just don't believe that dropping them on cities was the moral thing to do.

There were obviously still military targets....and THOSE are what should have been nuked....

Morality is irrelevant in true war as WWII was. You either fight to win definitively or you lose. Where is your questioning Japan's morality in attacking Pearl Harbor? Only an idiot like you would talk of derangement, blame, and morality after such an attack. They were seeking to attack our mainland next! The point of the nuclear attack was to hurt Japan so badly and quickly, they had no choice but surrender. It saved American lives. Leave your questions of morality for the Emperor of Japan who took his chances and gambled wrong with his people's lives.

 

[Frannie]

Bullshit propaganda, no matter how old you are.

Your user name means what? Freudian slip?

He is a retarded art teacher who wants to be paid 200 grand a year for showing 3rd grade kids how to glue construction paper

Strike 200000. Still out, dumbass.

Must be fun living in pretend land

 

[Frannie]

The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

BULLSHIT. It wasn't until after the 2nd bomb that the emperor was convinced to surrender. Easy to speak in 20/20 hindsight almost 75 years after the fact. The truth is those bombs saved American lives and set the pattern by which all future nuclear war or the possibility of it is measured. Take your blame-America-First mentality and shove it up the cornhole.

are all conservatives deranged?

are there any at all who can think straight?


even one?

"Take your blame-America-First mentality and shove it up the cornhole"

This is not and has not been an attack on America or blaming America...

this is a discussion about the morality of nuking 2 cities, at least one of which was NOT a military target.

I, personally, accept the dropping of the bombs......to shorten the war....I just don't believe that dropping them on cities was the moral thing to do.

There were obviously still military targets....and THOSE are what should have been nuked....

Is cornhole a liberal desert?

Enjoy

 

[Unkotare]

Bullshit propaganda, no matter how old you are.

Your user name means what? Freudian slip?

He is a retarded art teacher who wants to be paid 200 grand a year for showing 3rd grade kids how to glue construction paper

Strike 200000. Still out, dumbass.

Must be fun living in pretend land

You tell me. You’re the one making stupid shit up all the time.

 

[Frannie]

Bullshit propaganda, no matter how old you are.

Your user name means what? Freudian slip?

He is a retarded art teacher who wants to be paid 200 grand a year for showing 3rd grade kids how to glue construction paper

Strike 200000. Still out, dumbass.

Must be fun living in pretend land

You tell me. You’re the one making stupid shit up all the time.

That is what you perceive as schizophrenia controls your comprehension of reality

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Bullshit propaganda, no matter how old you are.

Your user name means what? Freudian slip?

He is a retarded art teacher who wants to be paid 200 grand a year for showing 3rd grade kids how to glue construction paper

Strike 200000. Still out, dumbass.

Must be fun living in pretend land

You tell me. You’re the one making stupid shit up all the time.

speaking of shit that's what your name means ....

 

[Kilroy2]

as a signee did the US have a moral obligation to adhere to the genova convention

If so, the US violated this moral obligation ling before the nukes were dropped.
So...?

Obviously with the constant bombing of cities for over a year So even a moral country will do immoral acts when confronted with a war.

Is morality a convenience and easily discarded when it becomes inconvenient ?

 

[Camp]

I know you are well educated on this topic. During a past discussion, I was encouraged to examine a book by Tsuyoshi Hasegawa called Racing The Enemy. Are you familiar with Hasegawa and that particular book?

This wasn't addressed to me, but I will say that Hasegawa's book is important and definitely worth reading. If Hasegawa had known about the Japanese sources that Professor Noriko Kawamura uncovered in her research, I think his book would have been even better. Once you read Hasegawa's Racing the Enemy, you must read Kawamura's Emperor Hirohito and the Pacific War.

Another very important book is Australian historian Paul Ham's book Hiroshima Nagasaki: The Real Story of the Atomic Bombings and Their Aftermath, published in 2014. Ham makes a powerful case that Japan clearly did *not* need to be nuked to end the war without an invasion. Ham also discusses our shameful conduct toward Japan's atomic bomb victims during our occupation of Japan.

Thank you very much. This topic gets a lot of responses, every year around the anniversary period. Whichever "sides" or point of view one may adhere to or be interested in exploring, the influx of history buff "scholars" is both educational and entertaining.

 

[elektra]

There were obviously still military targets....and THOSE are what should have been nuked....

would you have dropped bombs on the Japanese 5th Division and the 2nd Army Headquarters?

 

[elektra]

This wasn't addressed to me, but I will say that Hasegawa's book is important and definitely worth reading. If Hasegawa had known about the Japanese sources that Professor Noriko Kawamura uncovered in her research, I think his book would have been even better. Once you read Hasegawa's Racing the Enemy, you must read Kawamura's Emperor Hirohito and the Pacific War.

Another very important book is Australian historian Paul Ham's book Hiroshima Nagasaki: The Real Story of the Atomic Bombings and Their Aftermath, published in 2014. Ham makes a powerful case that Japan clearly did *not* need to be nuked to end the war without an invasion. Ham also discusses our shameful conduct toward Japan's atomic bomb victims during our occupation of Japan.

The only important books, are all those great old books wrote in the middle of the last century, closer to the time the bomb was dropped.

Yes we dropped the bomb and that did end the war, thankfully for all our POWs who were dying.

Yes, we learned a lot about the treatment of our POWs from the Philippines, that let us know that the race was on not only to end the war but to save their lives.

Sadly, that does not factor into your little brain housing group.

 

[harmonica]

so we had to nuke 2 cities full of grand parents and children because they didn't have a navy but t hey did have an army so we couldn't nuke the army because we needed them to say "UNCLE" so we kill a whole bunch of innocent grandparents and children because conservatives love killing people...

ok

you win

you had to kill those old people to make them say "uncle"

July 30th, 900 sailors were killed by the Japanese. Yet you make the outrageous claim that the japanese had no navy? August 18th the last B29 is shot down by the japanese, 9 days after Nagasaki, 6 days after the japanese cry "uncle". If I can use your pathetic term.

And how many Americans were crying, "uncle", in the torture camps!!!! How many you piece of shit. They were literally crying uncle, being beaten with bats, suffering, dying, yes americans crying uncle, for their lives, so that they could see their grandparents, and children.

How many died because of people like you! You would of had every american die by torture. You are a problem, your kind have been around since WW II. Afraid to fight, weak, pathetic, allowing americans to cry uncle under extreme torture.

Why, because you hate america so much you would have our men die of cruel torture and beatings under the worst conditions.

Cry uncle, yep, our american prisoners of war cried uncle and they got no quarter.

"And how many Americans were crying, "uncle", in the torture camps!!!! How many you piece of shit. "


I've been told by conservatives that the first person to resort to insults is losing the argument.


You are losing the argument.

I'm sure that because you are a conservative you are making wild, dangerous and false accusations.

(like trump!)



"They were literally crying uncle, being beaten with bats, suffering, dying, yes americans crying uncle, for their lives, so that they could see their grandparents, and children."

And for those crimes against humanity japanese military and government should have been punished severely. If you had nuked an army or the emporers palace I wouldn't take issue.

And they obviously debated whether to nuke a city or a military target.

They chose a city.....2 cities...

I would have nuked a military target. That would have ended the war even sooner!

Think about it....on your right is an army of huns....

to your left is a city of old people and children....

the army of huns is trying to kill you

the old people and children are not.

So....who do you nuke?

the army?

or the old folks and the children?


"How many died because of people like you! You would of had every american die by torture. You are a problem, your kind have been around since WW II. Afraid to fight, weak, pathetic, allowing americans to cry uncle under extreme torture."

and now you have gone off the deep end and started accusing me of vile crimes that are untrue.

These are disgusting and deplorable LIES!

If you truly believe these vile lies then I have no doubt you would want to kill ME, to......right?




"Why, because you hate america so much you would have our men die of cruel torture and beatings under the worst conditions."

more deranged lies.

and that is why rational people can never try to discuss issues with conservatives.


YOU leap to erroneous and dangerous and false conclusions.

You are practically insane.

military target would not have the shock effect that hitting a city did
which military target would you have hit?

"military target would not have the shock effect that hitting a city did"


That's what the 911 terrorists believed.....

"which military target would you have hit?"

any army or navy or base or even the emperors castle

Now you say "but they didn't HAVE any army or navy left!"

and I'll respond....then it wasn't necessary to bomb any city


all we had to was land and take over

no need to incinerate children and grandparents....

hahahahhahahah--a BIG hahahhahahahahahh
the catl

so we had to nuke 2 cities full of grand parents and children because they didn't have a navy but t hey did have an army so we couldn't nuke the army because we needed them to say "UNCLE" so we kill a whole bunch of innocent grandparents and children because conservatives love killing people...

ok

you win

you had to kill those old people to make them say "uncle"

July 30th, 900 sailors were killed by the Japanese. Yet you make the outrageous claim that the japanese had no navy? August 18th the last B29 is shot down by the japanese, 9 days after Nagasaki, 6 days after the japanese cry "uncle". If I can use your pathetic term.

And how many Americans were crying, "uncle", in the torture camps!!!! How many you piece of shit. They were literally crying uncle, being beaten with bats, suffering, dying, yes americans crying uncle, for their lives, so that they could see their grandparents, and children.

How many died because of people like you! You would of had every american die by torture. You are a problem, your kind have been around since WW II. Afraid to fight, weak, pathetic, allowing americans to cry uncle under extreme torture.

Why, because you hate america so much you would have our men die of cruel torture and beatings under the worst conditions.

Cry uncle, yep, our american prisoners of war cried uncle and they got no quarter.

"And how many Americans were crying, "uncle", in the torture camps!!!! How many you piece of shit. "


I've been told by conservatives that the first person to resort to insults is losing the argument.


You are losing the argument.

I'm sure that because you are a conservative you are making wild, dangerous and false accusations.

(like trump!)



"They were literally crying uncle, being beaten with bats, suffering, dying, yes americans crying uncle, for their lives, so that they could see their grandparents, and children."

And for those crimes against humanity japanese military and government should have been punished severely. If you had nuked an army or the emporers palace I wouldn't take issue.

And they obviously debated whether to nuke a city or a military target.

They chose a city.....2 cities...

I would have nuked a military target. That would have ended the war even sooner!

Think about it....on your right is an army of huns....

to your left is a city of old people and children....

the army of huns is trying to kill you

the old people and children are not.

So....who do you nuke?

the army?

or the old folks and the children?


"How many died because of people like you! You would of had every american die by torture. You are a problem, your kind have been around since WW II. Afraid to fight, weak, pathetic, allowing americans to cry uncle under extreme torture."

and now you have gone off the deep end and started accusing me of vile crimes that are untrue.

These are disgusting and deplorable LIES!

If you truly believe these vile lies then I have no doubt you would want to kill ME, to......right?




"Why, because you hate america so much you would have our men die of cruel torture and beatings under the worst conditions."

more deranged lies.

and that is why rational people can never try to discuss issues with conservatives.


YOU leap to erroneous and dangerous and false conclusions.

You are practically insane.

military target would not have the shock effect that hitting a city did
which military target would you have hit?

"military target would not have the shock effect that hitting a city did"


That's what the 911 terrorists believed.....

"which military target would you have hit?"

any army or navy or base or even the emperors castle

Now you say "but they didn't HAVE any army or navy left!"

and I'll respond....then it wasn't necessary to bomb any city


all we had to was land and take over

no need to incinerate children and grandparents....

hahahahhahahh and a big hahahhahahaha
the castle was in Tokyo

all we had to was land and take over

hahahhahahahahh
.... hey, you people with NO knowledge of WW2 should just listen and not make fools of yourselves

 

[harmonica]

military target would not have the shock effect that hitting a city did
which military target would you have hit?[/QUOTE]


unfortunately it is illegal to bomb civilian targets and the US signed and congress ratified acceptance of the Geneva Conventions Protocols 1

An attack or action must be intended to help in the military defeat of the enemy; it must be an attack on a military objective, and the harm caused to civilians or civilian property must be proportional and not excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

Even though they say there were industrial war factories in the 2 cities, the fact remains Japan navy and air force were already defeated. In one year leading up to the peace treaty, The US was dropping bombs like crazy with no interference. One such incident in Mar where bombers using fire bombs turned Tokyo into a blazing infernal killing more than 100,000 people. It took two nuclear bombs to meet that same target but I guess those cities had lessor population than Tokyo.

The question would be was there a moral obligation to not cause excessive harm to civilians by the US agreeing to the Geneva convention

To be legal, aerial operations must comply with the principles of humanitarian law military necessity, distinction , and proportionality

proportionality would be my concern as it appears to be excessive indiscriminate bombing

which does create a moral dilemma when do civilian casualties become excessive

nuclear weapons which destroy a greatly extended area beyond military necessity even fire bombing a city is excessive.

The conventions are there to protect civilians and limit barbarity which in war is hard to control

as a signee did the US have a moral obligation to adhere to the genova convention[/QUOTE]
...get with reality
we bombed the shit out of German and Japanese civilians
they did also--they killed civilians
it was total war....

 

[Frannie]

Interesting.

 

[elektra]

Immoral and unnecessary, if you were an enemy of the USA or are an enemy now. Than you would describe the bombing of cities engaged in war, as well as holding USA's prisoners as immoral. tYou do this to disgrace, demean, bring hatred upon your enemy in order to turn the public against your enemy so that you can defeat them.

If you love the USA, are on the side of the USA, and you know American prisoners are being starved, tortured, and murdered every day, then you fight to save the lives of your son, of your countrymen. You fight with every weapon you have. Nothing is unreasonable, to save the lives of those being mudered by the enemy.

 

[toobfreak]

The only important books, are all those great old books wrote in the middle of the last century, closer to the time the bomb was dropped.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious. So sick of hearing idiots tout books studying historic events decades or even centuries after their taking place, all neatly dissected and analyzed after the fact! After they have had eons to examine and search through data dispassionately without any of their fathers, sons or brothers lying dead in bloody body bags, and with totally changed views and circumstances from the time, much as people try to judge slavery at a time now today when thinking has grown 180° opposite from a time when Blacks were thought of as mere property. It is easy to see how wrong it is today, much harder to understand how it wasn't wrong to many for a very long time back then. Those were totally different times. Anyone who thinks they can understand historical events from reading a book long after the fact involving human tragedy is only kidding themselves; the only way to understand history is to either lived through it yourself, or read from it a book on the views and outlook of someone else who actually did while those events were fresh.

"Morality," you say? Look, ass, Let's be clear on Japan: THOSE WERE THE BAD GUYS. They were part of the Axis Powers. We were the good guys in there fighting Hitler, genocide, global aggression and defending Europe. They had just sneakily destroyed Pearl Harbor after talking peace with us. Our boys were dying left and right. We had the bomb, it was new. Death was everywhere. We only had hours and days to think and act. Not only did we have the bomb to completely change the metric, but it was untried and untested against an actual enemy and these were small bombs at that. Shame on you people for judging America harshly for its choice of targets or how it "treated the victims" in the aftermath.

THESE WERE THE JAPANESE, they were a hated, reviled, sneaky, diabolical enemy, and IMO they are only lucky we stopped at two bombs and didn't hit them with three of four or take the whole entire damn island. America is to be commended.

 

[Unkotare]

The only important books, are all those great old books wrote in the middle of the last century, closer to the time the bomb was dropped.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious. ... the only way to understand history is to either lived through it yourself, or read from it a book on the views and outlook of someone else who actually did while those events were fresh.......

Leaving aside the rest of your laughably childish take on history, many direct quotes from many of America's military leaders of that time have been provided expressing their views that the use of atomic weapons was immoral and unnecessary.

Are you going to contradict yourself now, Salty?

 

[Unkotare]

... Nothing is unreasonable,......

Admirable Leahy disagrees with you.

 

[toobfreak]

The only important books, are all those great old books wrote in the middle of the last century, closer to the time the bomb was dropped.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious. ... the only way to understand history is to either lived through it yourself, or read from it a book on the views and outlook of someone else who actually did while those events were fresh.......

Leaving aside the rest of your laughably childish take on history, many direct quotes from many of America's military leaders of that time have been provided expressing their views that the use of atomic weapons was immoral and unnecessary.

Are you going to contradict yourself now, Salty?

More laughably childish non-existent opinions from your library of non-existent imaginary people, Poopie? So, by your reasoning, if I go out and find a few books by people on slavery saying it was the best thing since sliced bread and we never should have ended it, you'd be totally on board with that view too. I get that. Anything to bash America.

It does not matter what they think. Morality in a time of war is a thing for children. Go to MacArthur or Patton and ask them if their strategy was "moral" and you'd probably find your worthless ass on the floor beaten the crap out of and then in the stockade. Maybe hopefully on trial as a subversive lending comfort to the enemy. The only thing that mattered is that the Japs drew first blood and we proved to them we could hit back harder than they could. That and the fact that with the bomb, we had a much better chance of winning the war than without it.

Go tell this guy the bombing of Japan wasn't moral or necessary. I fucking dare you. Neither are even in the equation, shit-lover. It was payback to the sneaky bastards. Lesson learned: fuck with us and you wake a sleeping tiger. Fuck the Japs.

 

[elektra]

Leaving aside the rest of your laughably childish take on history, many direct quotes from many of America's military leaders of that time have been provided expressing their views that the use of atomic weapons was immoral and unnecessary.

I have seen no quotes in this thread that are linked to a source.

 

[elektra]

... Nothing is unreasonable,......

Admirable Leahy disagrees with you.

Prove it Quote with link. That is a start.