The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[Kevin_Kennedy]

A truce is where no side wins, see the Korean War. A negotiated peace, or conditional surrender, is where one side surrenders assuming certain conditions are met. They still lose, but on their own terms.

A negotiated peace is not a surrender. Never was, never will be. And again, a cable to russia is not a negotiation so your opinion of the matter does not reflect reality.

Japan intended on keeping it's armies.
Japan said it would give back which territories, specifically? There are no specifics. What about territories Japan took before the war? Would they give them back? And of course they were speaking in the context of Russian territories? Nothing more? Again the cable is nothing more than a simple message that never reached the level of a negotiation, let alone a negotiated peace.

The USA's position was always unconditional surrender. The Russians new that, and refuted the Japanese's "message".

Very boring.

 

[elektra]

Very boring.

I am glad to see that is all you can reply with. I do not expect you to eat crow and enjoy it.

 

[elektra]

Whatever labored, embarrassing arguments one can make for the nuking of Hiroshima cannot be made for the nuking of Nagasaki just three days..

Surely Truman and other high officials knew that three days was not enough time for Japan’s government to .... McGeorge Bundy, who helped Henry Stimson write his defense of the atomic bombing of Japan, acknowledged that Truman was too quick to nuke Nagasaki:

Labored, embarrassing, and immoral. According to your Mormon, religious, faith. Sound like trolling and flaming as a title. Odd to pick a fight in this first sentence.

Other high officials? I must assume. Given your long list of academic credentials that it is not a mistake, that you intended to state McGeorge Bundy was a "high official" in the Truman administration?

McGeorge Bundy was not in the Truman administration and as a lieutenant in the army for most of WW II, he was absolutely a LOW ranking officer.

Irrelevant in this discussion yet you elevate him to high position? Simply because, decades after, he may of said something you agree with?

May of said, because you do not source your post. The reason you dont source is you mostly parrot others hence you have no idea where to look for an actual quote and source.

 

[elektra]

There was no Internet back then, no fax machines, no Skype.
.

Yet tokyo found out about the destruction within minutes.

What is your need to sensationalize your post with such drama and deceit.

Japan had radios, much more reliable during war than today's internet.

It is a shame we can not see your tears while we read your post.

 

[elektra]

True, because FDR should not have provoked Japan to attack us. In the months leading up to Pearl Harbor, the Japanese tried repeatedly to get FDR to lift the crippling sanctions he had imposed on Japan.

FDR provoked Japan? ha ha ha. Let us make this another post you have no answer to. I will try and keep it simple. Why did FDR impose "crippling sanctions", and what was the date?

 

[elektra]

It is such a joy reading the inane, sophomoric essays of those who are ignorant of history, criticizing the critical decisions that were made in real time.

The justification for both the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs was written throughout the entire Pacific Rim by the conduct of the Japanese themselves.

Starting with the unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor, the horrific treatment of POW's, the grotesque behavior of Japanese soldiers and guards in Occupied territories, the maniacal behavior of Japanese soldiers throughout the war and beyond, the horrific policy decisions of Japanese commanders, to the rhetoric of Japanese political leaders in Japan, preparing for the inevitable land invasion, where women and children were being prepared to fight with - literally - sticks and stones, to the death.

The idea that the Japanese were anywhere close to surrender is preposterous to anyone familiar with the facts on the ground. The bombs saved hundreds of thousands of Japanese lives as well as tens of thousands of American lives. It was the most fully justified military decision in human history. A pox on anyone claiming otherwise. You make me want to puke.

If you had written these pathetic self-righteous bullshit essays in the '50's when WWII vets were still around, you would have been thrashed to within an inch of your miserable, ignorant lives.

Amen

 

[Unkotare]

It is such a joy reading the inane, sophomoric essays of those who are ignorant of history, criticizing the critical decisions that were made in real time.

The justification for both the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs was written throughout the entire Pacific Rim by the conduct of the Japanese themselves.

Starting with the unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor, the horrific treatment of POW's, the grotesque behavior of Japanese soldiers and guards in Occupied territories, the maniacal behavior of Japanese soldiers throughout the war and beyond, the horrific policy decisions of Japanese commanders, to the rhetoric of Japanese political leaders in Japan, preparing for the inevitable land invasion, where women and children were being prepared to fight with - literally - sticks and stones, to the death.

The idea that the Japanese were anywhere close to surrender is preposterous to anyone familiar with the facts on the ground. The bombs saved hundreds of thousands of Japanese lives as well as tens of thousands of American lives. It was the most fully justified military decision in human history. A pox on anyone claiming otherwise. You make me want to puke.

If you had written these pathetic self-righteous bullshit essays in the '50's when WWII vets were still around, you would have been thrashed to within an inch of your miserable, ignorant lives.

Amen

You lost the argument about 100 pages ago.

 

[Frannie]

It is such a joy reading the inane, sophomoric essays of those who are ignorant of history, criticizing the critical decisions that were made in real time.

The justification for both the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs was written throughout the entire Pacific Rim by the conduct of the Japanese themselves.

Starting with the unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor, the horrific treatment of POW's, the grotesque behavior of Japanese soldiers and guards in Occupied territories, the maniacal behavior of Japanese soldiers throughout the war and beyond, the horrific policy decisions of Japanese commanders, to the rhetoric of Japanese political leaders in Japan, preparing for the inevitable land invasion, where women and children were being prepared to fight with - literally - sticks and stones, to the death.

The idea that the Japanese were anywhere close to surrender is preposterous to anyone familiar with the facts on the ground. The bombs saved hundreds of thousands of Japanese lives as well as tens of thousands of American lives. It was the most fully justified military decision in human history. A pox on anyone claiming otherwise. You make me want to puke.

If you had written these pathetic self-righteous bullshit essays in the '50's when WWII vets were still around, you would have been thrashed to within an inch of your miserable, ignorant lives.

Amen

You lost the argument about 100 pages ago.

Actually the Nips lost the argument

 

[mikegriffith1]

The justification for both the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs was written throughout the entire Pacific Rim by the conduct of the Japanese themselves.

Starting with the unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor, the horrific treatment of POW's, the grotesque behavior of Japanese soldiers and guards in Occupied territories, the maniacal behavior of Japanese soldiers throughout the war and beyond, the horrific policy decisions of Japanese commanders, to the rhetoric of Japanese political leaders in Japan, preparing for the inevitable land invasion, where women and children were being prepared to fight with - literally - sticks and stones, to the death.

This is a warped, inaccurate picture that seems to come straight from WWII-era anti-Japanese propaganda. I know you never will, but you should read at least two or three books that challenge this wartime propaganda.

f you had written these pathetic self-righteous bullshit essays in the '50's when WWII vets were still around, you would have been thrashed to within an inch of your miserable, ignorant lives.

This is sheer, militaristic ignorance. FYI, **many people** did publicly question the nuking of Japan soon after the war and in the two decades that followed, including a number of leading generals and admirals such as General Eisenhower, General MacArthur, Admiral Nimitz, Admiral Leahy, General Feller, General Clarke, and Admiral Halsey. Were they unpatriotic or guilty of dishonoring the war effort?

So your attempt to hide behind the flag and to invoke your warped version of "patriotism" while you endorse immoral militarism and the mass killing of tens of thousands of women and children falls flat on its face.

Actually the Nips lost the argument.

Clearly, anti-Japanese bigotry is alive and well in some quarters of America even in our day.

Maybe our next topic of discussion in this thread can be Truman's decision to launch a massive conventional bombing raid on Japan on August 14, after their surrender offer had been sent. But, that's okay, since they were only "Nips" after all, right?

 

[mikegriffith1]

The justification for both the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs was written throughout the entire Pacific Rim by the conduct of the Japanese themselves.

Starting with the unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor, the horrific treatment of POW's, the grotesque behavior of Japanese soldiers and guards in Occupied territories, the maniacal behavior of Japanese soldiers throughout the war and beyond, the horrific policy decisions of Japanese commanders, to the rhetoric of Japanese political leaders in Japan, preparing for the inevitable land invasion, where women and children were being prepared to fight with - literally - sticks and stones, to the death.

This is a warped, inaccurate picture that seems to come straight from WWII-era anti-Japanese propaganda. I know you never will, but you should read at least two or three books that challenge this wartime propaganda.

f you had written these pathetic self-righteous bullshit essays in the '50's when WWII vets were still around, you would have been thrashed to within an inch of your miserable, ignorant lives.

This is sheer, militaristic ignorance. FYI, **many people** did publicly question the nuking of Japan soon after the war and in the two decades that followed, including a number of leading generals and admirals such as General Eisenhower, General MacArthur, Admiral Nimitz, Admiral Leahy, General Feller, General Clarke, and Admiral Halsey. Were they unpatriotic or guilty of dishonoring the war effort?

So your attempt to hide behind the flag and to invoke your warped version of "patriotism" while you endorse immoral militarism and the mass killing of tens of thousands of women and children falls flat on its face.

Actually the Nips lost the argument.

Clearly, anti-Japanese bigotry is alive and well in some quarters of America even in our day.

Maybe our next topic of discussion in this thread can be Truman's decision to launch a massive conventional bombing raid on Japan on August 14, after the Japanese had sent their surrender message. But, that's okay, since they were only "Nips" after all, right?

 

[elektra]

Whatever labored, embarrassing arguments one can make for the nuking of Hiroshima cannot be made for the nuking of Nagasaki just three days later. From my article "Did We Really Need to Use the Atomic Bomb Against Japan?":

​

Surely it was obscene for us to nuke Nagasaki just three days, 72 hours, after we had nuked Hiroshima.

What amount of time, waiting, between atomic bombs, would not be obscene.

This is the premise of your OP.

I have asked many times. How long were we suppose to wait?

 

[elektra]

[QUOTE="mikegriffith1, post: 22891687, member: 40621"Even McGeorge Bundy, who helped Henry Stimson write his defense of the atomic bombing of Japan, acknowledged that Truman was too quick to nuke Nagasaki:
.[/QUOTE]
McGeorge Bundy, he was a 24 year old lieutenant in the army during WW II. You argument is so weak, or you are so uneducated, that you base an OP on Bundy? A complete nobody at the time who had nothing to do with the atomic bomb.

How about linking to your source on Bundy. You can at least follow the rules and link.

 

[Frannie]

The justification for both the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs was written throughout the entire Pacific Rim by the conduct of the Japanese themselves.

Starting with the unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor, the horrific treatment of POW's, the grotesque behavior of Japanese soldiers and guards in Occupied territories, the maniacal behavior of Japanese soldiers throughout the war and beyond, the horrific policy decisions of Japanese commanders, to the rhetoric of Japanese political leaders in Japan, preparing for the inevitable land invasion, where women and children were being prepared to fight with - literally - sticks and stones, to the death.

This is a warped, inaccurate picture that seems to come straight from WWII-era anti-Japanese propaganda. I know you never will, but you should read at least two or three books that challenge this wartime propaganda.

f you had written these pathetic self-righteous bullshit essays in the '50's when WWII vets were still around, you would have been thrashed to within an inch of your miserable, ignorant lives.

This is sheer, militaristic ignorance. FYI, **many people** did publicly question the nuking of Japan soon after the war and in the two decades that followed, including a number of leading generals and admirals such as General Eisenhower, General MacArthur, Admiral Nimitz, Admiral Leahy, General Feller, General Clarke, and Admiral Halsey. Were they unpatriotic or guilty of dishonoring the war effort?

So your attempt to hide behind the flag and to invoke your warped version of "patriotism" while you endorse immoral militarism and the mass killing of tens of thousands of women and children falls flat on its face.

Actually the Nips lost the argument.

Clearly, anti-Japanese bigotry is alive and well in some quarters of America even in our day.

Maybe our next topic of discussion in this thread can be Truman's decision to launch a massive conventional bombing raid on Japan on August 14, after their surrender offer had been sent. But, that's okay, since they were only "Nips" after all, right?

You want me to thank the nips for attacking the USA

Fuck you

 

[elektra]

Even McGeorge Bundy, who helped Henry Stimson write his defense of the atomic bombing of Japan, acknowledged that Truman was too quick to nuke Nagasaki:.

McGeorge Bundy, he was a 24 year old lieutenant in the army during WW II. You argument is so weak, or you are so uneducated, that you base an OP on Bundy? A complete nobody at the time who had nothing to do with the atomic bomb.

How about linking to your source on Bundy. You can at least follow the rules and link.

Bundy? Do you not read and research the topics you post your opinion of?

 

[Frannie]

Even McGeorge Bundy, who helped Henry Stimson write his defense of the atomic bombing of Japan, acknowledged that Truman was too quick to nuke Nagasaki:.

McGeorge Bundy, he was a 24 year old lieutenant in the army during WW II. You argument is so weak, or you are so uneducated, that you base an OP on Bundy? A complete nobody at the time who had nothing to do with the atomic bomb.

How about linking to your source on Bundy. You can at least follow the rules and link.

Bundy? Do you not read and research the topics you post your opinion of?

All this moron wants is attention, and we are giving it to the fool

 

[elektra]

"We consider the maintenance of peace in East Asia to be one aspect of the maintenance of world peace. Accordingly, Japan—as a proposal for ending the war and because of her concern for the establishment and maintenance of lasting peace—has absolutely no idea of annexing or holding the territories which she occupied during the war." - Shigenori Tōgō, Minister of Foreign Affairs for the Empire of Japan, via Naotake Satō, Japanese Ambassador to the U.S.S.R., July 12, 1945 https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu//NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/29.pdf

Are you just pretending not to understand the plain import of Togo's statement? Do you understand that Togo was Japan's Foreign Minister and one of the biggest peace advocates in the cabinet?

The Japanese even offered to withdraw from all Chinese territory they had occupied after 1937...

Can you never admit to being wrong, no matter how clear the evidence?

"Can you never admit to being wrong", I just got the book, Togo was not authorized to offer any territories that japan was holding. Togo got admonished, chastised.

We will certainly not convince them with pretty little phrases devoid of all connection with reality

The phrase was devoid of all connection with reality? Why? You leave out so much and accuse me of being the one who cannot accept being wrong! You are a CHARLATAN, all you do is parrot other's work you cut and paste from the internet. If that is not true, than you are devious low life liar. You list academic credentials, proudly, yet it appears you know nothing of simply reading a book.

I include a bit more with the pics to prove I got the book, you even get a bonus, feet.

 

[elektra]

Sato, goes much further, stating, "we must first of all make up our minds to terminate the war". Obviously, the message to Russia was nothing more than a simple message trying to find out Russia's position. That quote is in my pic in previous post.

 

[Dan Stubbs]

True, because the Japanese tried for months to get FDR to lift the crippling sanctions he had imposed on Japan. They offered enormous concessions, including ignoring the Tripartite Treaty. But, FDR, who was ever willing to excuse Soviet atrocities and tyranny, refused to show even half as much flexibility toward anti-communist Japan. Instead of making Japan our ally and letting the Japanese carry out their plan to invade Russia, FDR, desperate to save the Soviet Union, provoked Japan to war.

The Japanese had been carrying out a genocidal war in China for nearly a decade... you think FDR should have rewarded them for THAT?

The Japanese were as bad as the Nazis in WWII... we just don't hear that much about it because the Jews run Hollywood and just can't stop whining about Hitler. Now, if the Chinese ran Hollywood, that'd be a different story.

I don't know where I read that China had bought a part of a Hollywood Studio. I know they bought and opened a TV station in DC. The do the news on it. If you search this site someone post all the info on it.

 

[mikegriffith1]

"We consider the maintenance of peace in East Asia to be one aspect of the maintenance of world peace. Accordingly, Japan—as a proposal for ending the war and because of her concern for the establishment and maintenance of lasting peace—has absolutely no idea of annexing or holding the territories which she occupied during the war." - Shigenori Tōgō, Minister of Foreign Affairs for the Empire of Japan, via Naotake Satō, Japanese Ambassador to the U.S.S.R., July 12, 1945 https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu//NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/29.pdf

Are you just pretending not to understand the plain import of Togo's statement? Do you understand that Togo was Japan's Foreign Minister and one of the biggest peace advocates in the cabinet?

The Japanese even offered to withdraw from all Chinese territory they had occupied after 1937...

Can you never admit to being wrong, no matter how clear the evidence?

"Can you never admit to being wrong", I just got the book, Togo was not authorized to offer any territories that japan was holding. Togo got admonished, chastised.

We will certainly not convince them with pretty little phrases devoid of all connection with reality

The phrase was devoid of all connection with reality? Why? You leave out so much and accuse me of being the one who cannot accept being wrong! You are a CHARLATAN, all you do is parrot other's work you cut and paste from the internet. If that is not true, than you are devious low life liar. You list academic credentials, proudly, yet it appears you know nothing of simply reading a book.

I include a bit more with the pics to prove I got the book, you even get a bonus, feet.

You are totally, totally confused. The Togo-Sato cables are not talking about what the Japanese were offering to the Nationalists; they're talking about what the Japanese would offer to the U.S. to achieve a negotiated peace. By the way, part of the reason that Tojo was dumped was his opposition to surrender. You do realize that Tojo was ousted, right? Right?

Japan was not a dictatorship. Tojo was ousted and was replaced by the pro-peace Admiral Suzuki. Suzuki played a key role in helping to overcome the hardliners. Although Suzuki publicly called for continuing the war until the bitter end, privately he was saying and doing just the opposite. Suzuki was chosen to be prime minister precisely because it was known that he supported ending the war as soon as possible via surrender.

Second, I did not quote Hasegawa on Japan's peace feelers. I cited him on his point that it was the Soviet invasion, not the atomic bomb, that caused Japan to surrender.

Third, it is a fact of history that Japan eventually offered the Nationalists a deal where Japan would retain only her territory in Manchuria, which was a very, very reasonable offer, especially given the fact that before the Japanese took control of Manchuria, it was a land of chaos under warlord rule (and in fact the main warlord had gone to war with the Nationalists!).

 

[Unkotare]

The justification for both the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs was written throughout the entire Pacific Rim by the conduct of the Japanese themselves.

Starting with the unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor, the horrific treatment of POW's, the grotesque behavior of Japanese soldiers and guards in Occupied territories, the maniacal behavior of Japanese soldiers throughout the war and beyond, the horrific policy decisions of Japanese commanders, to the rhetoric of Japanese political leaders in Japan, preparing for the inevitable land invasion, where women and children were being prepared to fight with - literally - sticks and stones, to the death.

This is a warped, inaccurate picture that seems to come straight from WWII-era anti-Japanese propaganda. I know you never will, but you should read at least two or three books that challenge this wartime propaganda.

f you had written these pathetic self-righteous bullshit essays in the '50's when WWII vets were still around, you would have been thrashed to within an inch of your miserable, ignorant lives.

This is sheer, militaristic ignorance. FYI, **many people** did publicly question the nuking of Japan soon after the war and in the two decades that followed, including a number of leading generals and admirals such as General Eisenhower, General MacArthur, Admiral Nimitz, Admiral Leahy, General Feller, General Clarke, and Admiral Halsey. Were they unpatriotic or guilty of dishonoring the war effort?

So your attempt to hide behind the flag and to invoke your warped version of "patriotism" while you endorse immoral militarism and the mass killing of tens of thousands of women and children falls flat on its face.

Actually the Nips lost the argument.

Clearly, anti-Japanese bigotry is alive and well in some quarters of America even in our day.

Maybe our next topic of discussion in this thread can be Truman's decision to launch a massive conventional bombing raid on Japan on August 14, after their surrender offer had been sent. But, that's okay, since they were only "Nips" after all, right?

You want me to thank the nips for attacking the USA

...

Where is that post?