The Official Zimmerman Trial Verdict Thread

[jon_berzerk]

She is a poorly educated (possibly special needs) young woman who appears to be not very smart (or her intelligence hasn't been developed); she is unsophisticated; she doesn't know how to behave (no one has taught her). That doesn't maker her a liar or a punk or deserve a 'good whooping.' She's a simple, poorly educated young person who has been thrown into a situation of national media attention and criticism she doesn't want. Give her a break.

Good point, and I'm going to go one further. Here you have a poorly educated 19 year old girl who stood up against a college-educated lawyer- and she held her own. The lawyer came off as a bit snarky and even a little mean-spirited.

You assume she is poorly educated because? Because the college educated lawyer made it obvious. She was a horrible witness and a disgrace to the martin family, imo. I would be ashamed of her as a witness...surprised that so many Martin supporters arent just as outraged...she flicked all of you off and you guys are praising her...lol.

oddly after her testimony

all of a sudden it isnt about racism anymore

 

[25Caliber]

You have no justification if you THINK he is armed. Carrying a concealed weapon with a permit is not illegal.
Now if you confronted a man who was following your 17 year old son and told him you were going to beat him, he would be at least morally justified in indicating he was armed.

You see, we come at this from different perspectives. We both believe that any loss of life is tragic, but you believe that someone has to pay. You don't respect Mr. Zimmerman's right to defend himself from a physical assault, but do support Martin's right to defend himself from being followed.

Seems horribly biased to me.

Im not biased...read my posts...I have come down on both sides of the issue. To me not seeing anything that Zimmerman could have done differently is ignoring the obvious and extremely biased.

You cant see anything that he could have done differently...I find that intellectually dishonest. Not buying that cops are instructing you to follow suspicious people on foot either packing a weapon.

Police officers are instructed to do the exact opposite...not encourage you to pursue. They could be held liable for that if something were to happen.

Btw...I do believe that GZ has a right to defend himself...I have stated so repeatedly. I also believe that Tray has a right to ask why he is being followed? I also think that GZ has a responsibility to defuse the situation and identify himself. Its not surprising that he didnt...hes not a cop and not trained in doing so. So he should have handled it differently. It turns out his suspicion was bs anyway...the kid was just walking home as it turns out. So whatever GZ thought may happen or did happen--didnt.

What happened instead was a fight on his hands because a teen thought he was being followed by some strange creep in the dark. Ill advised.

If Im a cop...I dont want him following anyone on foot...certainly not packing in the process. That would be a hell no...no way...get out of there and wait for us!!

Of course he could have acted differently, but thinking he could have defused the situation once Martin began his assault is both ludicrous and irrelevant.

The facts are (apparently) that Zimmerman broke no law and his weapon remained hidden from view in its holster until he was assaulted. You keep harping on what Zimmerman could or should have done differently, but I don't recall any speculation on what Trevon could/should have done differently.

Im not talking about breaking laws...Im talking about what could have been done differently and also complying with the law. I understand he broke no laws...doesnt mean that his actions were the most correct for the situation.

I have stated ad nauseum that Trayvon should have just went home...I have stated that he was not running scared and that he came back to the problem twice once circling the person he was supposedly afraid ofs car. Thats not someone scared...thats someone acting like a punk.

I have also stated that Trayvon could have also defused the situation. GZ wasnt looking for a fight...he did not have to be punched. Trayvon could have been nicer about it also. Like: Hey, why are you following me...did I do something wrong? who are you?

The point is that Trayvon is dead there is nothing he can do from where he is now to remedy a similar situation in the future. GZ is still alive and if he runs into this situation again, then maybe his approach could be a little different...thats all.

Im just astonished at the adults that would not do something different to defuse the situation earlier. I have no shame...I would have just stopped my car and rolled down the window and asked what was up? lol. Especially if he was on a friend of mines neighbors lawn. Obviously, Zimmerman didnt have that him...he just picked up and called 911. If the cops would have come, it would have been for naught...tray would have just said he went to 7-11, bought some skittles and im enroute to my dads girlfriends house and this creep is getting all detective on me following me around. Okay, have a nice day...enjoy the all star game.

Zimmermans suspicion turned out to be so blatantly wrong that its hilarious to me that no one in here is objective enough to see what he could have done differently if it were their kid in the same situation. Im just trying to get an ounce of objective thought out of someone. But nope...its either solidly in Zs corner and he could do no wrong and nothing differently or solidly in Trays corner thinking he was just some innocent meek kid running scared. Theres not much of an in between in here...Im kind of shocked.

 

[Ernie S.]

My experience is that most POs are very cautious about who they allow to follow. In fact, they can be held liable for actually instructing it and something happening as a result. So not sure how your community works, but definitely different than mine.

You took orders from a cop to do this? Hmmm.

Most of the time they advise against it and they are pretty firm about it. Why? Hello....GZ.

We had a Police coordinator. In all fairness, this was 20 years ago. I was still a good deal older than Zimmerman and smaller than Martin. It was "advised" that we not be armed, but except for one guy who Wayne La Pierre wouldn't want owning a gun we all carried except in the coordinator's cruiser.

The weird guy had a CCP, but wanted to carry exposed while on duty. He dressed like a cop carried cuffs and spare mags. Just too much of a "hobby cop".

He came in my house one day to talk scheduling and when he sat, his holster which was in the small of his back, irritated him so he unholstered the weapon and set it on my coffee table in easy reach of my small children.
I grabbed the gun racked a round. (it was a Colt 1911) and told him to get the fuck out of my house and to pick up his weapon from the coordinator that evening. That's when he became (armed) persona non grata.

LOL...good for you. Dont blame ya a bit. Hey maybe this guy could be a mall cop? Probably a bad idea.

I think he has apps in at every police department in Connecticut. He ended up buying a Ford 4 door just like the CT State Police used and getting a job as a security guard.

 

[25Caliber]

Good point, and I'm going to go one further. Here you have a poorly educated 19 year old girl who stood up against a college-educated lawyer- and she held her own. The lawyer came off as a bit snarky and even a little mean-spirited.

You assume she is poorly educated because? Because the college educated lawyer made it obvious. She was a horrible witness and a disgrace to the martin family, imo. I would be ashamed of her as a witness...surprised that so many Martin supporters arent just as outraged...she flicked all of you off and you guys are praising her...lol.

oddly after her testimony

all of a sudden it isnt about racism anymore

Funny how that works, huh? Ive heard some even try to say that cracker isnt a racial slur...calling it saltine (in other words white salt vs black pepper...another racial slur....lol)

Cracker refers to the "whip cracking" slave drivers of the yester century...its extremely offensive to those in the country trying to move forward.

 

[Missourian]

Convicted or not, this was still ultimately Zimmerman's fault.

If only Zimmerman were white, the racist angle would have worked as intended.

If you're going to make excuses, at least make them honest excuses.

 

[Ernie S.]

Im not biased...read my posts...I have come down on both sides of the issue. To me not seeing anything that Zimmerman could have done differently is ignoring the obvious and extremely biased.

You cant see anything that he could have done differently...I find that intellectually dishonest. Not buying that cops are instructing you to follow suspicious people on foot either packing a weapon.

Police officers are instructed to do the exact opposite...not encourage you to pursue. They could be held liable for that if something were to happen.

Btw...I do believe that GZ has a right to defend himself...I have stated so repeatedly. I also believe that Tray has a right to ask why he is being followed? I also think that GZ has a responsibility to defuse the situation and identify himself. Its not surprising that he didnt...hes not a cop and not trained in doing so. So he should have handled it differently. It turns out his suspicion was bs anyway...the kid was just walking home as it turns out. So whatever GZ thought may happen or did happen--didnt.

What happened instead was a fight on his hands because a teen thought he was being followed by some strange creep in the dark. Ill advised.

If Im a cop...I dont want him following anyone on foot...certainly not packing in the process. That would be a hell no...no way...get out of there and wait for us!!

Of course he could have acted differently, but thinking he could have defused the situation once Martin began his assault is both ludicrous and irrelevant.

The facts are (apparently) that Zimmerman broke no law and his weapon remained hidden from view in its holster until he was assaulted. You keep harping on what Zimmerman could or should have done differently, but I don't recall any speculation on what Trevon could/should have done differently.

Im not talking about breaking laws...Im talking about what could have been done differently and also complying with the law. I understand he broke no laws...doesnt mean that his actions were the most correct for the situation.

I have stated ad nauseum that Trayvon should have just went home...I have stated that he was not running scared and that he came back to the problem twice once circling the person he was supposedly afraid ofs car. Thats not someone scared...thats someone acting like a punk.

I have also stated that Trayvon could have also defused the situation. GZ wasnt looking for a fight...he did not have to be punched. Trayvon could have been nicer about it also. Like: Hey, why are you following me...did I do something wrong? who are you?

The point is that Trayvon is dead there is nothing he can do from where he is now to remedy a similar situation in the future. GZ is still alive and if he runs into this situation again, then maybe his approach could be a little different...thats all.

Im just astonished at the adults that would not do something different to defuse the situation earlier. I have no shame...I would have just stopped my car and rolled down the window and asked what was up? lol. Especially if he was on a friend of mines neighbors lawn. Obviously, Zimmerman didnt have that him...he just picked up and called 911. If the cops would have come, it would have been for naught...tray would have just said he went to 7-11, bought some skittles and im enroute to my dads girlfriends house and this creep is getting all detective on me following me around. Okay, have a nice day...enjoy the all star game.

Zimmermans suspicion turned out to be so blatantly wrong that its hilarious to me that no one in here is objective enough to see what he could have done differently if it were their kid in the same situation. Im just trying to get an ounce of objective thought out of someone. But nope...its either solidly in Zs corner and he could do no wrong and nothing differently or solidly in Trays corner thinking he was just some innocent meek kid running scared. Theres not much of an in between in here...Im kind of shocked.

Were they? We really don't know what Trevon would have done. Again. It was raining. Martin was walking slowly, looking at homes he passed. Yes, he may have just been a curious kid, but Zimmerman's job was to observe suspicious characters.
If I was walking back from a store in the rain, my focus would have been getting home. Are we saying that Martin didn't know to come in out of the rain?

 

[SantaFeWay]

I'm with you, 25! At least as far as acknowledging mistakes were made that night. I'm pretty sure most people feel that way. But that is beside the point of whether or not GZ acted in self defense or is guilty of M2 or lesser charge. I think that's where the disagreements are coming in, with all respect to your perspective.

IMO both men acted badly/irrationally/suspiciously. And the outcome was tragic for both of them. Sunshine said something I agree with, and I'm paraphrasing, but she mentioned that just because someone was killed doesn't necessarily mean anyone was breaking the law. Sorry I'm too lazy to actually do a formal quote thing and look back to get it. I think that's the case in this situation.

 

[asterism]

Some kids are quite capable of killing and will do so for the change in your pocket.

Which kids?

Top 10 Young Killers - Listverse

The Unthinkable ? Children Who Kill and What Motivates Them -- The Crime Library ? The Unthinkable ? Crime Library on truTV.com

Fla. May Put 13-Year-Old Away for Life; Supreme Court Says Not So Fast - The Daily Beast

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/14/u...erms-a-case-in-point.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

New York Offenders | Juvenile Life Without Parole

Alameda County | Juvenile Life Without Parole

Illinois Offenders | Juvenile Life Without Parole

 

[25Caliber]

Of course he could have acted differently, but thinking he could have defused the situation once Martin began his assault is both ludicrous and irrelevant.

The facts are (apparently) that Zimmerman broke no law and his weapon remained hidden from view in its holster until he was assaulted. You keep harping on what Zimmerman could or should have done differently, but I don't recall any speculation on what Trevon could/should have done differently.

Im not talking about breaking laws...Im talking about what could have been done differently and also complying with the law. I understand he broke no laws...doesnt mean that his actions were the most correct for the situation.

I have stated ad nauseum that Trayvon should have just went home...I have stated that he was not running scared and that he came back to the problem twice once circling the person he was supposedly afraid ofs car. Thats not someone scared...thats someone acting like a punk.

I have also stated that Trayvon could have also defused the situation. GZ wasnt looking for a fight...he did not have to be punched. Trayvon could have been nicer about it also. Like: Hey, why are you following me...did I do something wrong? who are you?

The point is that Trayvon is dead there is nothing he can do from where he is now to remedy a similar situation in the future. GZ is still alive and if he runs into this situation again, then maybe his approach could be a little different...thats all.

Im just astonished at the adults that would not do something different to defuse the situation earlier. I have no shame...I would have just stopped my car and rolled down the window and asked what was up? lol. Especially if he was on a friend of mines neighbors lawn. Obviously, Zimmerman didnt have that him...he just picked up and called 911. If the cops would have come, it would have been for naught...tray would have just said he went to 7-11, bought some skittles and im enroute to my dads girlfriends house and this creep is getting all detective on me following me around. Okay, have a nice day...enjoy the all star game.

Zimmermans suspicion turned out to be so blatantly wrong that its hilarious to me that no one in here is objective enough to see what he could have done differently if it were their kid in the same situation. Im just trying to get an ounce of objective thought out of someone. But nope...its either solidly in Zs corner and he could do no wrong and nothing differently or solidly in Trays corner thinking he was just some innocent meek kid running scared. Theres not much of an in between in here...Im kind of shocked.

Were they? We really don't know what Trevon would have done. Again. It was raining. Martin was walking slowly, looking at homes he passed. Yes, he may have just been a curious kid, but Zimmerman's job was to observe suspicious characters.
If I was walking back from a store in the rain, my focus would have been getting home. Are we saying that Martin didn't know to come in out of the rain?

I think that given the situation and the passed crime in that very building, that GZ had a right to be suspicious. Having a right to be and being right are two different things...in times past he was right...in this case he was not.

Trayvon cant control nature...not that much time had elapsed from the 7-11 store...it was raining...hes walking in the direction of the fiances house....we are talking minutes not hours. Of course GZ didnt know where he came from or how long he had been there...it could have turned out that a crime had been committed and that trayvon had been wondering around in the rain for hours after 7-11...that was not the case, so GZs hunch in this case was incorrect.

I liken it to a police officer pulling over a driver just after leaving a bar for a "lane" violation...his hunch is that if he pulls him over he may get the big score of a dui arrest. If that person is not drunk...his hunch was wrong. I bring this up because it has happened to me several times.

 

[jon_berzerk]

You assume she is poorly educated because? Because the college educated lawyer made it obvious. She was a horrible witness and a disgrace to the martin family, imo. I would be ashamed of her as a witness...surprised that so many Martin supporters arent just as outraged...she flicked all of you off and you guys are praising her...lol.

oddly after her testimony

all of a sudden it isnt about racism anymore

Funny how that works, huh? Ive heard some even try to say that cracker isnt a racial slur...calling it saltine (in other words white salt vs black pepper...another racial slur....lol)

Cracker refers to the "whip cracking" slave drivers of the yester century...its extremely offensive to those in the country trying to move forward.

yes exactly correct

did you see Andrew Branca piece tonight at legal insurrection

he says state opened the door

for defense to introduce video and other evidence of martins

activities and expertise in street-fighting

 

[jon_berzerk]

Im not talking about breaking laws...Im talking about what could have been done differently and also complying with the law. I understand he broke no laws...doesnt mean that his actions were the most correct for the situation.

I have stated ad nauseum that Trayvon should have just went home...I have stated that he was not running scared and that he came back to the problem twice once circling the person he was supposedly afraid ofs car. Thats not someone scared...thats someone acting like a punk.

I have also stated that Trayvon could have also defused the situation. GZ wasnt looking for a fight...he did not have to be punched. Trayvon could have been nicer about it also. Like: Hey, why are you following me...did I do something wrong? who are you?

The point is that Trayvon is dead there is nothing he can do from where he is now to remedy a similar situation in the future. GZ is still alive and if he runs into this situation again, then maybe his approach could be a little different...thats all.

Im just astonished at the adults that would not do something different to defuse the situation earlier. I have no shame...I would have just stopped my car and rolled down the window and asked what was up? lol. Especially if he was on a friend of mines neighbors lawn. Obviously, Zimmerman didnt have that him...he just picked up and called 911. If the cops would have come, it would have been for naught...tray would have just said he went to 7-11, bought some skittles and im enroute to my dads girlfriends house and this creep is getting all detective on me following me around. Okay, have a nice day...enjoy the all star game.

Zimmermans suspicion turned out to be so blatantly wrong that its hilarious to me that no one in here is objective enough to see what he could have done differently if it were their kid in the same situation. Im just trying to get an ounce of objective thought out of someone. But nope...its either solidly in Zs corner and he could do no wrong and nothing differently or solidly in Trays corner thinking he was just some innocent meek kid running scared. Theres not much of an in between in here...Im kind of shocked.

Were they? We really don't know what Trevon would have done. Again. It was raining. Martin was walking slowly, looking at homes he passed. Yes, he may have just been a curious kid, but Zimmerman's job was to observe suspicious characters.
If I was walking back from a store in the rain, my focus would have been getting home. Are we saying that Martin didn't know to come in out of the rain?

I think that given the situation and the passed crime in that very building, that GZ had a right to be suspicious. Having a right to be and being right are two different things...in times past he was right...in this case he was not.

Trayvon cant control nature...not that much time had elapsed from the 7-11 store...it was raining...hes walking in the direction of the fiances house....we are talking minutes not hours. Of course GZ didnt know where he came from or how long he had been there...it could have turned out that a crime had been committed and that trayvon had been wondering around in the rain for hours after 7-11...that was not the case, so GZs hunch in this case was incorrect.

deedee said martin made it home

she knew this because she could hear other people talking

 

[25Caliber]

I'm with you, 25! At least as far as acknowledging mistakes were made that night. I'm pretty sure most people feel that way. But that is beside the point of whether or not GZ acted in self defense or is guilty of M2 or lesser charge. I think that's where the disagreements are coming in, with all respect to your perspective.

IMO both men acted badly/irrationally/suspiciously. And the outcome was tragic for both of them. Sunshine said something I agree with, and I'm paraphrasing, but she mentioned that just because someone was killed doesn't necessarily mean anyone was breaking the law. Sorry I'm too lazy to actually do a formal quote thing and look back to get it. I think that's the case in this situation.

I agree...it has nothing to do with his self defense. Just an opinion of what could be done to perhaps avoid it in the future.

Ive said in the past that I would not want to be on the prosecution team trying to prove that it wasnt self defense...losing battle, imo...too subjective. Thats why the race card is being so desperately played...try to get a conviction on emotion instead of the facts. I think the prosecution could go in another direction by showing that GZ could be considered the aggressor for reaching when asked a question in the dark and rain...I think they should play that card and let the jury decide who was initially acting in self defense.

If I ask you a question and you reach for something that I think may be a weapon and I punch you before you can access it and then I rain blows in a struggle to keep you from accessing the weapon, then I think the jury has something to think about. Like wait a minute...was trayvon throwing blows to prevent being shot by a strange man following him in the dark in an unfamiliar neighborhood? Not saying that it would work, but its a logical argument and you could use GZs own words against him to boot.

Maybe if GZ takes the stand, they will, but to date they have not and do not seem real organized with their witness testimony.

 

[Zarius]

There is no way GZ should walk. He had no right to take the law into his own hands. There is a reason for that. If he does Blacks just became second class citizens again. And WE are to blame.

 

[jon_berzerk]

I'm with you, 25! At least as far as acknowledging mistakes were made that night. I'm pretty sure most people feel that way. But that is beside the point of whether or not GZ acted in self defense or is guilty of M2 or lesser charge. I think that's where the disagreements are coming in, with all respect to your perspective.

IMO both men acted badly/irrationally/suspiciously. And the outcome was tragic for both of them. Sunshine said something I agree with, and I'm paraphrasing, but she mentioned that just because someone was killed doesn't necessarily mean anyone was breaking the law. Sorry I'm too lazy to actually do a formal quote thing and look back to get it. I think that's the case in this situation.

I agree...it has nothing to do with his self defense. Just an opinion of what could be done to perhaps avoid it in the future.

Ive said in the past that I would not want to be on the prosecution team trying to prove that it wasnt self defense...losing battle, imo...too subjective. Thats why the race card is being so desperately played...try to get a conviction on emotion instead of the facts. I think the prosecution could go in another direction by showing that GZ could be considered the aggressor for reaching when asked a question in the dark and rain...I think they should play that card and let the jury decide who was initially acting in self defense.

If I ask you a question and you reach for something that I think may be a weapon and I punch you before you can access it and then I rain blows in a struggle to keep you from accessing the weapon, then I think the jury has something to think about. Like wait a minute...was trayvon throwing blows to prevent being shot by a strange man following him in the dark in an unfamiliar neighborhood? Not saying that it would work, but its a logical argument and you could use GZs own words against him to boot.

i watched a little of the various cable networks

they have all been so invested in a guilty racist zimmerman

that they are upset with how badly it is going for the state

 

[25Caliber]

Were they? We really don't know what Trevon would have done. Again. It was raining. Martin was walking slowly, looking at homes he passed. Yes, he may have just been a curious kid, but Zimmerman's job was to observe suspicious characters.
If I was walking back from a store in the rain, my focus would have been getting home. Are we saying that Martin didn't know to come in out of the rain?

I think that given the situation and the passed crime in that very building, that GZ had a right to be suspicious. Having a right to be and being right are two different things...in times past he was right...in this case he was not.

Trayvon cant control nature...not that much time had elapsed from the 7-11 store...it was raining...hes walking in the direction of the fiances house....we are talking minutes not hours. Of course GZ didnt know where he came from or how long he had been there...it could have turned out that a crime had been committed and that trayvon had been wondering around in the rain for hours after 7-11...that was not the case, so GZs hunch in this case was incorrect.

deedee said martin made it home

she knew this because she could hear other people talking

I dont think he went home...I think he was in the area and she considered it basically home. He was in between the same building of his townhome, so although he was at the building he wasnt at the home. I think he was in between the two buildings when he was talking to her...and considering that he had walked the whole complex coming back from 7-11, I think he considered where he was, basically home or at the same building as home.

You cant really tell from her testimony...just listen to her try to decipher the meaning of "get off"...sometimes ebonics has the opposite meaning of the actual word...she deals almost entirely in slang which makes it real difficult to tell what the hell she is talking about from a literal standpoint.

 

[Gracie]

Some kids are quite capable of killing and will do so for the change in your pocket.

Which kids?

Mother of Baby Shot Dead Speaks Out in Heartbreaking Interview: ?He Must Have Died Instantly? | Video | TheBlaze.com

This didn't make major news circuits, or talk shows, but guess who the shooters were and guess who the victims were.

Awww. look at that young black innocent face. No way he could have done such a thing. Why, he is innocent, I tell ya.

 

[thanatos144]

I'm concerned about the almost all-white upper-middle class jury for this reason...

What White People Don't Understand About Rachel Jeantel By Rachel Samara | Global Grind

Its always the white man keeping you down right?

Welcome to my nightmare

 

[AyeCantSeeYou]

i watched a little of the various cable networks

they have all been so invested in a guilty racist zimmerman

that they are upset with how badly it is going for the state

They can't see and comprehend the evidence because they have their heads shoved up each others asses so far the sun wouldn't dare enter and the moon disappeared from view ages ago.

 

[25Caliber]

Which kids?

Mother of Baby Shot Dead Speaks Out in Heartbreaking Interview: ?He Must Have Died Instantly? | Video | TheBlaze.com

This didn't make major news circuits, or talk shows, but guess who the shooters were and guess who the victims were.

Awww. look at that young black innocent face. No way he could have done such a thing. Why, he is innocent, I tell ya.

Boehner should have a press conference and state that that could be his baby...lol. Obama did about Tray.

 

[asterism]

I'm with you, 25! At least as far as acknowledging mistakes were made that night. I'm pretty sure most people feel that way. But that is beside the point of whether or not GZ acted in self defense or is guilty of M2 or lesser charge. I think that's where the disagreements are coming in, with all respect to your perspective.

IMO both men acted badly/irrationally/suspiciously. And the outcome was tragic for both of them. Sunshine said something I agree with, and I'm paraphrasing, but she mentioned that just because someone was killed doesn't necessarily mean anyone was breaking the law. Sorry I'm too lazy to actually do a formal quote thing and look back to get it. I think that's the case in this situation.

I agree...it has nothing to do with his self defense. Just an opinion of what could be done to perhaps avoid it in the future.

Ive said in the past that I would not want to be on the prosecution team trying to prove that it wasnt self defense...losing battle, imo...too subjective. Thats why the race card is being so desperately played...try to get a conviction on emotion instead of the facts. I think the prosecution could go in another direction by showing that GZ could be considered the aggressor for reaching when asked a question in the dark and rain...I think they should play that card and let the jury decide who was initially acting in self defense.

If I ask you a question and you reach for something that I think may be a weapon and I punch you before you can access it and then I rain blows in a struggle to keep you from accessing the weapon, then I think the jury has something to think about. Like wait a minute...was trayvon throwing blows to prevent being shot by a strange man following him in the dark in an unfamiliar neighborhood? Not saying that it would work, but its a logical argument and you could use GZs own words against him to boot.

The prosecution really should have built a case for manslaughter once they saw how weak their case for murder was. While not necessarily the letter of the law with regards to self-defense, the act of leaving his truck armed is significant and would be enough to convince a jury that a concealed carry permit comes with responsibilities.

However, charging him with murder opens up the door to require that the prosecution prove beyond a reasonable doubt that killing Martin was not in self-defense which makes it even harder to convict on manslaughter. It either was self-defense or it wasn't and although the standard is statutorily the same, a jury would see it differently if it were just manslaughter.