The Official Zimmerman Trial Verdict Thread

[pioneerpete]

Does anyone realize that if the jury believes that GZ is even somewhat plausible that they have to acquit? Does anyone realize that by the State flipping it's position from GZ was on top to now we believe it could have been GZ on bottom is the absolute definition of reasonable doubt? If there is any reasonable doubt whatsoever that the jury must acquit?

I can tell by some people's posts that they don't really follow the trial very closely and are filling in holes with their assumptions. Nobody can prove what happened up to the point where John Good found TM on top of GZ with GZ screaming for help, except that TM started the conversation. Every piece of physical evidence, including the presence of any injuries on GZ supports GZ's story is plausible. Plausible even a little means you can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Because this is all that can be proved, nobody's assumptions or assertions outside of these events is relevant.

 

[Pheonixops]

No one cares about it either. But if you seem to think that somehow invalidates a claim on racism, you should probably know that racists come from every race and ethnicity.

Can a white person be racist against white people?

Can a Jew hate other Jews?

Sure they can hate other individual Jews, but it would be stupid for them to hate all Jews.

 

[Pheonixops]

Please note: The fact that self defense creates reasonable doubt for all lesser charges is being completely ignored by those who want to see him charged with lesser charges.

That's if the jury ultimately feels that way.

 

[Pheonixops]

Well 4:45am wake up, I'll be back tomorrow...........

 

[pioneerpete]

Can a white person be racist against white people?

Can a Jew hate other Jews?

Sure they can hate other individual Jews, but it would be stupid for them to hate all Jews.

So when some Jews deny the holocaust does that mean they hated each and every individual Jew? What about blacks calling other blacks uncle tom's? What does the term self-loathing Jew mean? If they hate themselves wouldn't they then in turn hate Jews?

 

[JimBowie1958]

Please note: The fact that self defense creates reasonable doubt for all lesser charges is being completely ignored by those who want to see him charged with lesser charges.

That's if the jury ultimately feels that way.

How does introducing new charges when the trial is over jive with GZ's right to a trial for all charges brought against him?

 

[pioneerpete]

Well 4:45am wake up, I'll be back tomorrow...........

Good night. I will PM you all the facts you are wrong on so you can address them individually and I won't feel that you have skipped over them.

 

[rdean]

rdean just went off the deep end...
Where would we be today if....

Trevon just kept walking away...
Trevon called 911
Trevon did not confront someone who had a gun.
Trevon did not attack George Zimmerman...

Trevon "ran" away. Wasn't that good enough? We know he ran because Zimmerman said so in his "call".

He went and hid for a few minutes and returned to beat the shit out of George. Check out the evidence that even the prosecution agrees with.

I don't have to check jack shit. What is wrong with you? Zimmerman got out of his car and pursued him. So stop the bullshit. It's on fucking audio tape (he said in an exasperated manner).

 

[pioneerpete]

Please note: The fact that self defense creates reasonable doubt for all lesser charges is being completely ignored by those who want to see him charged with lesser charges.

That's if the jury ultimately feels that way.

How does introducing new charges when the trial is over jive with GZ's right to a trial for all charges brought against him?

Happens all the time. All of the charges attached are basically the same thing as Murder 2, with less severe punishments. They all have lessor standards to prove, but still assert that he killed TM without justification. However, self-defense is an absolute defense. So on each account the state must prove the charge and disprove self-defense. They only way he is convicted of anything is if the jury doesn't believe he acted in self-defense.

 

[OriginalShroom]

The Prosecution has admitted that they didn't prove their overcharged allegations that Zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder, so they are now asking the Judge to include lesser charges in an attempt to get any kind of conviction to appease the Black population and prevent riots.

I have never heard of this happening before. It must have... but I have never heard of it. Usually the Prosecutors will string together groups of charges knowing that each one increases their chances of a conviction if they fail on their primary charge.

All I can say is I hope that the Judge refuses to do it, or if she does, it is tossed on appeals. It's not the Judge's job to help the Prosecutors to get a conviction which is what will look like if she agrees to this.

Judge considers lesser charges for Zimmerman | Detroit Free Press | freep.com


SANFORD, Fla. - State prosecutors are asking the judge in the Trayvon Martin murder case to instruct the jury to consider lesser charges - manslaughter and aggravated assault - when they begin deliberations.

Zimmerman's attorney have objected. Nelson will hold a hearing Thursday morning to determine whether the jury should consider those charges, in addition to the second-degree murder charge that prosecutors sought when the trial began.

The last-minute maneuvering by prosecutors has been seen by some legal experts as an indication that they are not as confident about their chances for a second-degree murder conviction. The jury is expected to start deliberating on Friday.

 

[OriginalShroom]

BTW, manslaughter, in Florida, carries the same penalty as does 2nd degree Murder.

 

[RKMBrown]

Question for TM advocates:

If it could be shown that GZ did not stalk TM and that he did not initiate the physical conflict, would you still want GZ convicted?

No. IMO the negligence was chasing his suspect in the rain at night. I'm a hunter, you don't go after a living thing while armed unless you intend to shoot it. Negligent homicide.

Yeah well apparently they can't charge him with negligent involuntary manslaughter because they went for voluntary homicide. Nutz. The original investigator told them involuntary. The prosecution overshot. Now he goes free with the self defense argument based on the beating TM gave him.

 

[pioneerpete]

0:00 Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. This line is being recorded. This is Sean.

0:01 (sound of windshield wipers)

0:05 Zimmerman: Hey, we’ve had some breakins in my neighborhood., and there’s a real suspicious guy, ah, it’s Retreat View Circle,. Um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or sumpin. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about.

0:11 (sound of door lock?)

0:16 (sound of windshield wipers)

0:25 Dispatcher: OK. And this guy, is he white, black or Hispanic?

0:29 Zimmerman: He looks black.

0:30 Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?

0:31 (sound of windshield wipers)

0:33 Zimmerman: Yeah, a, a dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now and he’s just staring,

0:44Dispatcher: OK, he’s just walking around the area?

0:46 Zimmerman: looking at all the houses.

0:46 (sound of windshield wipers)

0:47 Dispatcher: OK.

0:48 Zimmerman: And now he’s just staring at me.

0:49 Dispatcher: OK. It’s just it’s 1 1 1 1 Retreat View? Or 111?

0:53 Zimmerman: That’s the, that’s the clubhouse (unintelligible)

0:55 Dispatcher: That’s the clubhouse.

0:56 Zimmerman: (unintelligible)

0:57 Dispatcher: Do you know what the…he’s near the clubhouse right now?

0:58 Zimmerman: Yeah. Now he’s comin towards me.

1:00 Dispatcher: OK.

1:01 (sound of windshield wipers, gear selector)

1:03 Zimmerman: He’s got his hand in his waistband.

1:05 (sound of a ding)

1:06 (sound of window rolling up?)

Zimmerman: And he’s a black male.

1:09 (sound of gear selector)

1:10 Dispatcher: OK. How old would you say he

1:11 Zimmerman: He’s got

1:12 Dispatcher: looks?

1:13 Zimmerman: a button on his shirt. Late teens.

1:14 Dispatcher: Late teens. OK.

1:16 Zimmerman: Um hum.

1:16 (sound of windshield wipers)

1:17 Zimmerman: Sumpin’s wrong with him.

1:19 (sound like a thump noise)

1:21 Zimmerman: Yup. He’s comin’ to check me out. He’s got sumpin in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is.1:27 Dispatcher: OK, just let me know

1:28 Zimmerman: Please get an officer

1:29 Dispatcher: if he does anything…1

1:30 Zimmerman: over here.

1:31 (sound of windshield wipers)

1:32 Dispatcher: Yeah, we got em on the way. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.

1:34 Zimmerman: OK. These assholes, they always get away.1:38 (sound of gear selector)Learned today that people in this neighborhood have gotten away with home invasions

1:40 (sound of gear selector)

1:44 Zimmerman: Yup. When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.

1:46 (sound of windshield wipers)

1:54 Dispatcher: OK, so it’s on the left hand side from the clubhouse.

1:54 (sound of windshield wipers)

1:58 Zimmerman: No, you go in straight through the entrance and then you’d make a left. Uh, yeah, you go straight in, don’t turn and make a left. Shit, he’s running.

2:08 Dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?

2:10 (door opens, sound of door alarm) Getting out of the car

2:10 Zimmerman: Ah, down towards the, ah, other entrance of the neighborhood.

2:14 (door closes)

2:14 Dispatcher: OK. Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards?

2:17 Zimmerman; The back entrance. Fucking punks.
The kid that was arrested for the home invasion lived near the back entrance. He was released/got away for being a 16 year old minor.

2:20 (wind noise)

2:23 Dispatcher: Are you following him?

2:25 Zimmerman: Yeah.

2:26 Dispatcher: OK, we don’t need you to do that.

2:28 Zimmerman: OK. Out of the car already. GZ is told not to follow once out of the car.

 

[Zona]

What difference does it make that Zimmerman was on the bottom. If he was winning the fight he would not have shot martin. He lost the fight and killed an unarmed teen. Simple really.

 

[Noomi]

I think Zimmerman should go down for murder, but I don't think the judge should be allowed to ask the jury to consider lesser charges.

The prosecution should have made that request earlier, before the trial. If they want new charges, they should be charging him again, which they can't.

 

[Ernie S.]

I'm not saying there was. I'm saying if she had not asked HIM, it would have looked as though his lawyer could not put him on the stand for ethical reasons.

If I were Zimmerman I wouldn't want to testify either. I would be a wreck. I think I have been in some key places to see the kind of emotional turmoil people go through when there is a criminal accusation against them. I have also seen the fools who won't settle for probation but rather want their 'name cleared' and end up in the pen.

Clarification. Under Florida statutory law and the law of many states, the Judge must ask the accused these questions... informing them that they have a rigtht to testify even if there lawyer tells them not to, because it is the accused right to testify and the accused's lawyer can not make that decision for the accused.

SOP

Whether the jury heard it or not, I think it was a good thing. She will likely make it known to the jury that HE made the decision.

Standard jury instruction will be given. I can pull it for you if you want, but basically it states that the Defendant has voluntarily decided not to testify and that he has a constitutional right to do so and that the jury should not presume anything for his failure to testify.

Yes, all defendants have the right to speak for themselves. However, the lawyer also may not perpetrate a fraud upon the court.

I know that jury instructions will include that they should not consider the defendant's failure to testify. But, most people I know are not lawyers or judges and most of them think the defendant not testifying means he is guilty and CANNOT be allowed to testify. Even in this thread, there has been speculation about whether he will testify. I think early on it was told he would. But now he had chosen not to. I was glad he chose not, because, IMO, the evidence for the defense is overwhelming in and of itself. If he got baited or went to pieces he could undo that.


Here is an interesting TN case. There was a time when TN had some really squirrelly rules:

FindLaw | Cases and Codes

Zimmerman could have helped his case IF he lost control on cross. If he felt threatened and went to the high pitched yelling like in the 911 tape, all doubt as to who was yelling for help would have been removed.

 

[pioneerpete]

What difgerence does it make that Zimmerman was on the bottom. If he was winning the fight he would not have shit martin. He lost the fight and killed an unarmed teen. Simple really.

Prove it beyond a reasonable doubt that he wasn't doing it in self-defense.

 

[Ernie S.]

I think he is plenty articulate. Apparently he is very well liked and respected and appreciated by his neighbors who know him well, but on camera he is not that sympathetic a person. He is probably very lovable once you get to know him. But on camera, he just isn't somebody who looks adorable either in his appearance or by his demeanor. He just isn't one of those people you are automatically drawn to and feel immediate rapport or sympathy with. And that could go against him under antagonistic interrogation by the Prosecution. I'm sure his defense team knows that too.

Someone--I don't know who--remarked that he had an unusually interesting and accomplished group of friends.

I haven't thought much about his appearance--under such circumstances anyone who can sit stoically through hours and hours of the legal process gets a pass from me.

'They' thought the woman called as a final witness was a good choice and it clarified to me that he has a genuine interest in his community. That is how I would respond to her testimony.
Far too emotional myself to serve on this jury and perhaps on any jury.

Why he couldn't have hit TM over the head with the gun--but I don't know. Self defense.

Having never engaged in a physical altercation it is difficult to judge what thoughts or feelings might be involved. Adrenaline---but that is the jury's job to decide.

When a man says, 'I'm cooking my.................' (stew, roast, steak, spaghetti, whatever) I know I am going to have to take an anti emetic to be able to keep it down.

The only man cooking I can tolerate is that of the ones who have been to culinary school.

You haven't eaten here, Sunshine.

 

[Avatar4321]

I think Zimmerman should go down for murder, but I don't think the judge should be allowed to ask the jury to consider lesser charges.

The prosecution should have made that request earlier, before the trial. If they want new charges, they should be charging him again, which they can't.

Thankfully, our justice system requres actual evidence and not just what you think.

 

[Avatar4321]

Pull those threads up and back up your bullshit. LOL, you don't even know my ethnicity!

No one cares about it either. But if you seem to think that somehow invalidates a claim on racism, you should probably know that racists come from every race and ethnicity.

Can a white person be racist against white people?

Yes. Lots of people hate their own race and ethnicity.