The "Palestinians" and Their Lies

[toastman]

Israel is occupying territories and holding them via military force. Those were not part of the original borders. It's an occupation. I'm referring to West Bank/Gaza. Or are you suggesting Israel has the right to take whatever land it wants and determine it's own borders irregardless of the inhabitants?

The "Arabs" living in modern day Israel are by and large the same people as the Jews.

And, speaking of missing the point - you do not address any of the points I made in your attempt to show that the Palestinian people are not a people. Many people will cease to exist based on your "logic".

Coyote, do you agree with me when I tell you that that Palestinians have not done anything to prove to Israel that they can be trusted if Israel opens up all the checkpoints in the West Bank ??

I think the fact that the Palestinians have rival governments, each claiming legitimacy, means that Israel can't afford to trust security arrangments to them because who really speaks for the people and who can or will guarantee security?

That doesn't alter the fact that it's an occupation and has been for some time.

There would be no Israeli occupation if:
a)The Arabs didn;t attack in 1967 and threaten to kill the the Jews in Israel
b) Jordan had accepted the offer after the 6 day war to take back the West Bank

 

[Hossfly]

Israel exist, Jose.

To bad for zealous anti-Zionists like you.

We're here to stay.

Deal with it

You're the one who dehumanizes the Palestinian people by denying their national identity, chica (I've seen you refer to it as a "fake" national identity and putting it in commas before)

You're the one who further dehumanizes them by supporting a jewish supremacist state masquerading as a democracy that denies their right to move about their homeland.

I've never denied the legitimacy of the jewish national identity (and don't intend to). I criticize Palestinians and palestinian supporters who do in the strongest terms possible.

I worry about the safety of the jewish people in a post-Israel Palestine.

Between you and me, I guess it's pretty clear who the dehumanizer is.

Would you plese define the term "post-Israel Palestine"? I don't think I've ever come across a more idiotic description. That's like saying a "post Sun galaxy.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, do you agree with me when I tell you that that Palestinians have not done anything to prove to Israel that they can be trusted if Israel opens up all the checkpoints in the West Bank ??

I think the fact that the Palestinians have rival governments, each claiming legitimacy, means that Israel can't afford to trust security arrangments to them because who really speaks for the people and who can or will guarantee security?

That doesn't alter the fact that it's an occupation and has been for some time.

There would be no Israeli occupation if:
a)The Arabs didn;t attack in 1967 and threaten to kill the the Jews in Israel
b) Jordan had accepted the offer after the 6 day war to take back the West Bank

All of which is a diversion from the unalterable fact that it IS an occupation.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Again - how is the Hashemite sovereignty over the portion of "Palestine" that is now called Jordan NOT an occupation, by your definition?

I also think it is worth mentioning Coyote's casual statement that "most of the Jewish Palestinians emigrated to Israel." You say that as if it was, in all cases, a choice. In fact, thousands of Jews were expelled from Arab territories.

 

[Coyote]

Again - how is the Hashemite sovereignty over the portion of "Palestine" that is now called Jordan NOT an occupation, by your definition?

I also think it is worth mentioning Coyote's casual statement that "most of the Jewish Palestinians emigrated to Israel." You say that as if it was, in all cases, a choice. In fact, thousands of Jews were expelled from Arab territories.

Where did I say that?

I am well aware of the expulsions.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

You stated:

Most of the Palestinian Jews migrated to Israel.

Still waiting for your answer about the Jordanian occupation of "Palestine."

 

[MJB12741]

Wouldn't it be funny if the Siberians started claiming Russia is stealing their land like the Palestinians do with Israel?

Lie #1: "Palestinians Exist"
What exactly is a "Palestinian"? There has never been a sovereign nation of Palestine, so its not a national origin.

There has never been a sovereign state of Kurdistan either but there are Kurds.
There has never been a sovereign state of Ainu but there are Ainus.
There has never been a sovereign state of Balkar but there are Balkars
There has never been a sovereign state of Bashkir but there are Bashkirs
There has never been a sovereign state of Inuit but there are Inuits.

There has never been a religion known as "Palestinianism," so its not a religious designation.

There has never been a religion known as Kurd, Ainu, Balkar, Bashkir, Inuit...



There is no language known as American, Venezualan, Mexican, Canadian, Ainu, Druze....etc



Inhabitants of a roughly defined geo-cultural region known as Palestine.



So what?



They also include people who lived in the re-created nation of Israel as well. So what?

Any suggestion that there is a discreet category of Arab - originating only from modern day Israel - that qualifies as "Palestinians" is simply a LIE.

The Palestinians are the people who have inhabited that region for a long time. They consist of a mixture of ethnic groups and religions including Muslim, Druze, Christian and Jewish. Most of the Palestinian Jews migrated to Israel.

Genetic analysis suggests that most of the Palestinians inlcuding those Arab citizens of Israel descend from other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant. The primary language is Arab - which is for the Middle East what English is to North America - the common tongue of the conquerors.

Whether they coalesced as a distinct people in ancient times or in modern times makes no difference - they are a people now and this line of argument is little more than a lie in an attempt to marginalize them. All people become a "people" at some point in time - where do you draw the lline?

The real lie here is yours.

Keep telling the real truth.

I will

 

[Coyote]

Wouldn't it be funny if the Siberians started claiming Russia is stealing their land like the Palestinians do with Israel?

According to the logic some Israeli's use to claim all of Palestine...they are.

 

[Coyote]

You stated:

Most of the Palestinian Jews migrated to Israel.

Still waiting for your answer about the Jordanian occupation of "Palestine."

Ah, ok - and yes, the explusions were a factor. There was a great deal of movement and upheavel.

There is no Jordanian occupation.

Even Israel refers to it as an occupation and as Occupied Territories. That's what is so amusing about these arguments.

 

[toastman]

I think the fact that the Palestinians have rival governments, each claiming legitimacy, means that Israel can't afford to trust security arrangments to them because who really speaks for the people and who can or will guarantee security?

That doesn't alter the fact that it's an occupation and has been for some time.

There would be no Israeli occupation if:
a)The Arabs didn;t attack in 1967 and threaten to kill the the Jews in Israel
b) Jordan had accepted the offer after the 6 day war to take back the West Bank

All of which is a diversion from the unalterable fact that it IS an occupation.

I didn't deny that however.

 

[Coyote]

There would be no Israeli occupation if:
a)The Arabs didn;t attack in 1967 and threaten to kill the the Jews in Israel
b) Jordan had accepted the offer after the 6 day war to take back the West Bank

All of which is a diversion from the unalterable fact that it IS an occupation.

I didn't deny that however.

No you didn't Toast - my mind was half on the discussion with 1967 when I answered you - apologies

 

[MJB12741]

So we may all get this right, where is this "Palestine" you refer to located that Israel is occupying?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah_map_830.svg

Wouldn't it be funny if the Siberians started claiming Russia is stealing their land like the Palestinians do with Israel?

According to the logic some Israeli's use to claim all of Palestine...they are.

 

[toastman]

No need to apologize

I just wish people would do a little more research about the occupation instead of screaming "Brutal occupation" and stuff like that.
I also don't deny that the occupation makes the lives of thousands of Palestinians harder, mainly because of the checkpoints. Blaming Israel for it seems to be the only path for the pro - Palestinians. Well, at least that's the way I see it
I hope you understand

 

[José]

Jose, mi amigo, I wish for you to understand that I have NOTHING against Palestinians at all. And I mean that. I am just against the claim that the Palestinians make that they are the indigenous people of what is now called Israel.
I understand that you view this as -dehumanization, but it's not. I;m sorry that you view it that way

At the risk of sounding like a broken record the first step you should take to stop dehumanizing the palestinian people is refrain the desire to thank messages like this:

HistoryBefore67
Lie #1: "Palestinians Exist"

 

[José]

Originally posted by Coyote
Israel exists, and is not going to crumble into dust and blow away. People have to accept that.

If by "crumble into dust and blow away" you mean the violent destruction of the country by military invasion I couldn't agree more. No one in his right mind want to see it happen.

But if it was meant as a way of "legitimizing" racial supremacism in Palestine and stating that Israel will continue to exist in the long term then you need to do a serious reality check on the track record of ethnic supremacist states:

Tell this to the leaders of Nazi Germany who imagined a Third Reich that was supposed to last for 1000 years.

Tell this to Verwoerd, Botha and all the other leaders of South Africa who, speech after speech, promised that Boers would never share South Africa with the Bantu peoples.

Tell this to George Wallace shouting "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" in Alabama, 1963.

 

[José]

Israel exist, Jose.

To bad for zealous anti-Zionists like you.

We're here to stay.

Deal with it

You're the one who dehumanizes the Palestinian people by denying their national identity, chica (I've seen you refer to it as a "fake" national identity and putting it in commas before)

You're the one who further dehumanizes them by supporting a jewish supremacist state masquerading as a democracy that denies their right to move about their homeland.

I've never denied the legitimacy of the jewish national identity (and don't intend to). I criticize Palestinians and palestinian supporters who do in the strongest terms possible.

I worry about the safety of the jewish people in a post-Israel Palestine.

Between you and me, I guess it's pretty clear who the dehumanizer is.

Would you plese define the term "post-Israel Palestine"? I don't think I've ever come across a more idiotic description. That's like saying a "post Sun galaxy.

It's a pretty obvious term.

Post-Israel Palestine means the state that will arise comprising in the entire region of Palestine after the peaceful dismantlement of the state of Israel.

And the fact that you compare astronomical entities like the Sun and the Milky Way, upon which we have absolutely no control, to a human construct like a country in this case, Israel, that can be founded and dismantled at will, speaks volumes about the level of indoctrination the average american citizen is subjected to regarding Israel.

I worry so much about the safety of the jewish people in a post-Israel Palestine that I don't even support palestinian majority rule.

I would like to see Israel being replaced by an international protectorate with hundreds of thousands of american, russian, brazilian, etc... troops guarateeing the safety of both communities.

 

[José]

Originally posted by HistoryBefore1967
I'm sorry if Toast's statement offends you somehow, but how is it untrue?

A movement that defines "Palestine" as a discrete Arab nation that has been occupied by Jewish Zionists is, in fact, a complete hoax.

There was never an american nation in North America. There were several distinct national identities:

The Sioux national identity.

The Apache national identity.

etc, etc...

But when a native american says:

"I'm not only a Sioux. I'm also an American."

Nobody tries to delegitimize, to mock his national identity (brought to them by the european settlers).

There was never a south african nation in Southern Africa. There were several distinct Bantu national identities:

The khosa national identity, the Zulu, etc...

But when a black south african says:

"I'm not only a Zulu. I'm also a South African."

Nobody tries to delegitimize, to mock his national identity (brought to them by the european settlers).

 

[José]

Only palestinians are subjected to mockery and ridicule when they say:

"I'm not only a Arab. I'm also a Palestinian."

Nobody tries to delegitimize the american and south african national identity. They are both fully recoginized and respected.

But the same individuals who would never dream of calling a Sioux "a fake American" and a Zulu "a fake South African" are constantly trying to deny the palestinian national identity.

DEHUMANIZATION AT ITS FINEST.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

You stated:

Most of the Palestinian Jews migrated to Israel.

Still waiting for your answer about the Jordanian occupation of "Palestine."

Ah, ok - and yes, the explusions were a factor. There was a great deal of movement and upheavel.

There is no Jordanian occupation.

Even Israel refers to it as an occupation and as Occupied Territories. That's what is so amusing about these arguments.

Why is there "no Jordanian occupation"? The Hashemites originate from Saudi Arabia, not "Palestine." They control a portion of Syria Palestina.

Why is it an "occupation" when Jews are in control, but not when Arabs are in control?

 

[MJB12741]

Toastman is correct when he stated had Jordan not refused Israel's offer to return the entire West Bank after the 67 war, there would be no "occupation."

Sure seems to me Jordan is the smartest player in all of the Middle East:

Jordan refused Israel's offer to return the West Bank back to them so they sacrifice this piece of land to dump their Palestinians on Israel to deal with.

Jordan still denys Palestinians any right of return so as to keep them in Israel.

Jordan gave the Palestinians Black September to effectively communicate with them for the one & only lasting peace.

Jordan made peace with Israel back in the early 90's & now even has open borders with Israel so tourists to Israel can cross over into Jordan to boost their econmy as well.

And who knows Palestinains better than the Jordanians?






http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah_map_830.svg
Jordan refuses any right of return to the Palestinians to keep them in Israel.

No need to apologize

I just wish people would do a little more research about the occupation instead of screaming "Brutal occupation" and stuff like that.
I also don't deny that the occupation makes the lives of thousands of Palestinians harder, mainly because of the checkpoints. Blaming Israel for it seems to be the only path for the pro - Palestinians. Well, at least that's the way I see it
I hope you understand