The "Palestinians" and Their Lies

[Coyote]

Originally posted by Coyote
Israel exists, and is not going to crumble into dust and blow away. People have to accept that.

If by "crumble into dust and blow away" you mean the violent destruction of the country by military invasion I couldn't agree more. No one in his right mind want to see it happen.

But if it was meant as a way of "legitimizing" racial supremacism in Palestine and stating that Israel will continue to exist in the long term then you need to do a serious reality check on the track record of ethnic supremacist states:

Tell this to the leaders of Nazi Germany who imagined a Third Reich that was supposed to last for 1000 years.

Tell this to Verwoerd, Botha and all the other leaders of South Africa who, speech after speech, promised that Boers would never share South Africa with the Bantu peoples.

Tell this to George Wallace shouting "Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" in Alabama, 1963.

No. What I meant was Israel, as a nation is here to stay it's right to exist needs to be accepted just as the right of the Palestinians to self-determination and a homeland.

How Israel treats it's Arab citizens is another matter and hopefully international pressure along with a resolution of the Palestinian conflict will force some change there.

 

[Coyote]

You stated:



Still waiting for your answer about the Jordanian occupation of "Palestine."

Ah, ok - and yes, the explusions were a factor. There was a great deal of movement and upheavel.

There is no Jordanian occupation.

Even Israel refers to it as an occupation and as Occupied Territories. That's what is so amusing about these arguments.

Why is there "no Jordanian occupation"? The Hashemites originate from Saudi Arabia, not "Palestine." They control a portion of Syria Palestina.

There is no Jordanian occupation. Jordan's borders are settled.

Jordan is not occupying any land that does not belong within it's borders.

Hashemites are irrelevent to this. What matters is the people there now.

Why is it an "occupation" when Jews are in control, but not when Arabs are in control?

Because it has nothing to do with Jews so please stop trying to turn it into a religious persecution argument.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Coyote
No. What I meant was Israel, as a nation is here to stay it's right to exist needs to be accepted just as the right of the Palestinians to self-determination and a homeland.

How Israel treats it's Arab citizens is another matter and hopefully international pressure along with a resolution of the Palestinian conflict will force some change there.

Your first statement was a bit vague so I was careful enough to avoid jumping to any conclusion but now you made your position absolutely clear:

You do support democracy in America and jewish racial supremacism in Palestine.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Hashemites are irrelevent to this. What matters is the people there now.

Apparently, you are unaware that the Hashemites currently rule Jordan (that's why the official name of the country is the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan).

Here's a quick quiz:

Who said this?

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a
Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle
against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality
today there is no difference between Jordanians,
Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and
tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of
a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand
that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian
people' to oppose Zionism.

"For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state
with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa.
While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa,
Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we
reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even
a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

a) The President of AIPAC
b) A Tea Party candidate
c) An executive committee member of the PLO

 

[Coyote]

Hashemites are irrelevent to this. What matters is the people there now.

Apparently, you are unaware that the Hashemites currently rule Jordan (that's why the official name of the country is the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan).

Here's a quick quiz:

Who said this?

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a
Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle
against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality
today there is no difference between Jordanians,
Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and
tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of
a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand
that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian
people' to oppose Zionism.

"For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state
with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa.
While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa,
Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we
reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even
a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

a) The President of AIPAC
b) A Tea Party candidate
c) An executive committee member of the PLO

HistoryBefore67


Again - the Palestinian people exist. Whatever you choose to call them - they are there and they inhabit an area. All people's have a beginning. You just choose to be arbritrary in defining that begining.

 

[Coyote]

Originally posted by Coyote
No. What I meant was Israel, as a nation is here to stay it's right to exist needs to be accepted just as the right of the Palestinians to self-determination and a homeland.

How Israel treats it's Arab citizens is another matter and hopefully international pressure along with a resolution of the Palestinian conflict will force some change there.

Your first statement was a bit vague so I was careful enough to avoid jumping to any conclusion but now you made your position absolutely clear:

You do support democracy in America and jewish racial supremacism in Palestine.

No I do not.

I believe that needs to be changed in much the same manner as pressure was applied to South Africa to force change.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Coyote
No I do not.

I believe that needs to be changed in much the same manner as pressure was applied to South Africa to force change.

Sorry... but I can only evaluate your position by what you choose to type.

When you state that Israel has the right to deny palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza their right to live anywhere they want in their historical homeland you are supporting jewish racial supremacism in Palestine 100%.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Hashemites are irrelevent to this. What matters is the people there now.

Apparently, you are unaware that the Hashemites currently rule Jordan (that's why the official name of the country is the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan).

Here's a quick quiz:

Who said this?

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a
Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle
against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality
today there is no difference between Jordanians,
Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and
tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of
a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand
that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian
people' to oppose Zionism.

"For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state
with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa.
While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa,
Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we
reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even
a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

a) The President of AIPAC
b) A Tea Party candidate
c) An executive committee member of the PLO

HistoryBefore67


Again - the Palestinian people exist. Whatever you choose to call them - they are there and they inhabit an area. All people's have a beginning. You just choose to be arbritrary in defining that begining.

Okay. Then most "Palestinians" are, in fact, Judaeans and/or Samarians.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

No offense, Coyote, but your double-talk, moving target, analyses are more full of crap than a broken porta potty at a chili cookout during a dysentery outbreak.

 

[Coyote]

Apparently, you are unaware that the Hashemites currently rule Jordan (that's why the official name of the country is the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan).

Here's a quick quiz:

Who said this?

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a
Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle
against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality
today there is no difference between Jordanians,
Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and
tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of
a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand
that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian
people' to oppose Zionism.

"For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state
with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa.
While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa,
Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we
reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even
a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

a) The President of AIPAC
b) A Tea Party candidate
c) An executive committee member of the PLO

HistoryBefore67


Again - the Palestinian people exist. Whatever you choose to call them - they are there and they inhabit an area. All people's have a beginning. You just choose to be arbritrary in defining that begining.

Okay. Then most "Palestinians" are, in fact, Judaeans and/or Samarians.

The Palestinians may have become "a people" during the birth of Arab nationalism but they didn't spontaneously appear. Whatever you choose to call them - they are there now, some later immigrants, some with roots going back as long as the Jewish claims because they are comprised of the same peoples that have been in that area for several thousand years with the Arab influx being only the most recent.

The problem with your attempt to deny them an identity is it exists to serve only one purpose - marginalize a group of people by denying them an identity and in doing so, deny their justified claims to self-determination and a homeland.

It doesn't matter who existed thousands of years ago - most of those people can't really trace their ancestry that far back nor are they the same peoples due to the mixing of many migrations in and out. It's a foolish argument. What matters is we have two groups of people that need a state existing in an area where there are states with established borders, a state with fluid borders and a territory that is called "Occupied" by the state occupying it. The rest is smoke and mirrors.

 

[RoccoR]

Coyote, et al,

In the "whole man" view, the greater sense, this must be true.

Again - the Palestinian people exist. Whatever you choose to call them - they are there and they inhabit an area. All people's have a beginning. You just choose to be arbitrary in defining that beginning.

(COMMENT)

They were there, they are there, they will be there tomorrow.

When we talk about dealing with reality, we have to deal with the people entangled in the dispute; whatever we choose to call them (ala Coyote).

The dispute is not over the name, but about the land, control, power and influence.

When I draw-up truth tables, I call them "Brand X."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

No offense, Coyote, but your double-talk, moving target, analyses are more full of crap than a broken porta potty at a chili cookout during a dysentery outbreak.

No offense taken since the imagery provided is well worth the insult, but what do you mean by "moving target" and "double talk"?

 

[Roudy]

Israel exist, Jose.

To bad for zealous anti-Zionists like you.

We're here to stay.

Deal with it

You're the one who dehumanizes the Palestinian people by denying their national identity, chica (I've seen you refer to it as a "fake" national identity and putting it in commas before)

You're the one who further dehumanizes them by supporting a jewish supremacist state masquerading as a democracy that denies their right to move about their homeland.

I've never denied the legitimacy of the jewish national identity (and don't intend to). I criticize Palestinians and palestinian supporters who do in the strongest terms possible.

I worry about the safety of the jewish people in a post-Israel Palestine.

Between you and me, I guess it's pretty clear who the dehumanizer is.

Jose Feliciano, how did these Arabs who never even considered themselves "Palestinian" get a national identity? There has never been a Palestinian state, ever, especially a Palestinian Arab state. There has been a Kurdish state and people since ancient times, though.

Palestinians are the newest of all the peoples on the face of the Earth, and began to exist in a single day by a kind of supernatural phenomenon that is unique in the whole history of mankind.

“Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
“We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag”.
“When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out”.

This declaration by a true "Palestinian" should have some significance for a sincerely neutral observer. Indeed, there is no such a thing like a Palestinian people, or a Palestinian culture, or a Palestinian language, or a Palestinian history. There has never been any Palestinian state, neither any Palestinian archaeological find nor coinage. The present-day "Palestinians" are an Arab people, with Arab culture, Arabic language and Arab history. They have their own Arab states from where they came into the Land of Israel about one century ago to contrast the Jewish immigration. That is the historical truth. They were Jordanians (another recent British invention, as there has never been any people known as "Jordanians"), and after the Six-Day War in which Israel utterly defeated the coalition of nine Arab states and took legitimate possession of Judea and Samaria, the Arab dwellers in those regions underwent a kind of anthropological miracle and discovered that they were Palestinians - something they did not know the day before. Of course, these people having a new identity had to build themselves a history, namely, had to steal some others' history, and the only way that the victims of the theft would not complain is if those victims do no longer exist. Therefore, the Palestinian leaders claimed two contradictory lineages from ancient peoples that inhabited in the Land of Israel: the Canaanites and the Philistines.

 

[Coyote]

What's the arbritrary line for legitimizing a people? 10 years? 100? 10000?

 

[Roudy]

Coyote, et al,

In the "whole man" view, the greater sense, this must be true.

Again - the Palestinian people exist. Whatever you choose to call them - they are there and they inhabit an area. All people's have a beginning. You just choose to be arbitrary in defining that beginning.

(COMMENT)

They were there, they are there, they will be there tomorrow.

When we talk about dealing with reality, we have to deal with the people entangled in the dispute; whatever we choose to call them (ala Coyote).

The dispute is not over the name, but about the land, control, power and influence.

When I draw-up truth tables, I call them "Brand X."

Most Respectfully,
R

Brand X is a fraud.

The land called "Palestine"

In the 2nd century c.e., the last attempt of the Jews to achieve independence from the Roman Empire ended with the well-known event of Masada, that is historically documented and universally recognized as the fact that determined the Jewish Diaspora in a definitive way. The Land where these things happened was until then the province known as Judæa , and there is no mention of any place called "Palestine" before that time. The Roman emperor Hadrian was utterly upset with the Jewish Nation and wanted to erase the name of Israel and Judah from the face of the Earth, so that there would be no memory of the country that belonged to that rebel people. He decided to replace the denomination of that Roman province and resorted to ancient history in order to find a name that might appear appropriate, and found that an extinct people that was unknown in Roman times, called "Philistines", was once dwelling in that area and were enemies of the Israelites. Therefore, according to Latin spelling, he invented the new name: "Palæstina", a name that would be also hateful for the Jews as it reminded them their old foes. He did so with the explicit purpose of effacing any trace of Jewish history. Ancient Romans, as well as modern Palestinians, have fulfilled the Hebrew Scriptures Prophecy that declares: "They lay crafty plans against Your People... they say: ‘come, let us wipe them out as a nation; let the name of Israel be remembered no more'." - Tehilim 83:3-4 (Psalm 83:3-4). They failed, as Israel is still alive. Any honest person would recognize that there is no mention of the name Palestina in history before the Romans renamed the province of Judea, that such name does not occur in any ancient document, is not written in the Bible, neither in the Hebrew Scriptures nor in the Christian Testament, not even in Assyrian, Persian, Macedonian, Ptolemaic, Seleucian or other Greek sources, and that not any "Palestinian" people has ever been mentioned, not even by the Romans that invented the term. If "Palestinians" allegedly are the historic inhabitants of the Holy Land, why did they not fight for independence from Roman occupation as Jews did? How is it possible that not a single Palestinian leader heading for a revolt against the Roman invaders is mentioned in any historic record? Why there is not any Palestinian rebel group mentioned, as for example the Jewish Zealots? Why every historic document mentions the Jews as the native inhabitants, and the Greeks, Romans and others as foreigners dwelling in Judea, but not any Palestinian people, neither as native nor as foreigner? What is more, there is no reference to any Palestinian people in the qur'an (koran), although muslims claim that their prophet was once in Jerusalem (an event that is not mentioned in the koran either). It appears evident that he did not meet any Palestinian in his whole life, nor his successors did either. Caliph Salahuddin al-Ayyub (Saladin), knew the Jews and kindly invited them to settle in Jerusalem, that he recognized as their Homeland, but he did not know any Palestinian... To claim that Palestinians are the original people of Eretz Yisrael is not only against secular history but also against Islamic history!
The name "Falastin" that Arabs today use for "Palestine" is not an Arabic name, but adopted and adapted from the Latin Palæstina . How can an Arab people have a western name instead of one in their own language? Because the use of the term "Palestinian" for an Arab group is only a modern political creation without any historic or ethnic grounds, and did not indicate any people before 1967.

 

[MHunterB]

You stated:

Most of the Palestinian Jews migrated to Israel.

Still waiting for your answer about the Jordanian occupation of "Palestine."

Ah, ok - and yes, the explusions were a factor. There was a great deal of movement and upheavel.

There is no Jordanian occupation.

Even Israel refers to it as an occupation and as Occupied Territories. That's what is so amusing about these arguments.

Actually the government refers to the WB and Gaza as 'Disputed' territories.

There isn't a Jordanian occupation currently - but are you going to deny there WAS one between '48-'67 ? If you deny that, what's your basis for doing so?

 

[Coyote]

You stated:



Still waiting for your answer about the Jordanian occupation of "Palestine."

Ah, ok - and yes, the explusions were a factor. There was a great deal of movement and upheavel.

There is no Jordanian occupation.

Even Israel refers to it as an occupation and as Occupied Territories. That's what is so amusing about these arguments.

Actually the government refers to the WB and Gaza as 'Disputed' territories.

There isn't a Jordanian occupation currently - but are you going to deny there WAS one between '48-'67 ? If you deny that, what's your basis for doing so?

That's an interesting point - it seems Israel is fluid in how it defines those territories: Status of territories captured by Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do believe under international law, they are considered Occupied Territory. If Israel claims them, then they will have to claim the Palestinians as Israeli's and that would be difficult.


I was speaking of Jordan in the current tense.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

The problem with your attempt to deny them an identity is it exists to serve only one purpose - marginalize a group of people by denying them an identity and in doing so, deny their justified claims to self-determination and a homeland.

I'm sorry, but your statement is incorrect.

The purpose is to define terms in order to provide a basis to have a discussion.

If the term "Palestinian" is based upon geography, then the PA (PLO) and Hamas are NOT the representatives of the "Palestinians," as they surely do not represent the interests of all people (including Jews, Druze, Christians, Bedouins...) who have resided in the territory known in some points in history as "Palestine."

The term, as used by most of the "Free Palestine" crowd, has come to mean Muslim Arabs who lived in the British Mandate of Palestine prior to 1948, and their descendents. That is an arbitrary political defining of the term, and is not simply based upon geography.

Ultimately, my question is, apart from a geographical designation originating from the Roman Empire, what makes a "Palestinian" different from other Arabs? If the answer is "nothing," then the quote of the PLO representative rings true: the term was devised for tactical reasons in the fight against Israel.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Coyote
If Israel claims them, then they will have to claim the Palestinians as Israeli's and that would be difficult.

"Dificult" only for racist Jews and american Gentiles like you who dehumanize the palestinian people and support jewish supremacism in Palestine without even being fully aware of it.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Roudy
Jose Feliciano, how did these Arabs who never even considered themselves "Palestinian" get a national identity?

The same way Apaches who never even considered themselves "American" got the American national identity.

Through the contact with the english colonists.

The same way Zulus and Xhosas who never even considered themselves "South African" got the South African national identity.

Through the contact with the dutch colonists.