The Right To Bear Arms

[danielpalos]

"Using Heller". Heller very specifically decouples the Militia Clause from the 2A (ridiculously)...because Scalia knew that was a losing argument

It doesn't matter if it is decoupled from the Militia or not as by U.S. Code the Unorganized Militia is THE PEOPLE. The theory was the private citizens, not the government, needed to be armed, and ready, and they were to provide their own ARMS.

the militia is callable to Arms.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The 2nd Amendment is the guarantee that the PEOPLE will have a last resort when their government becomes illegitimate, as the Founders KNEW all governments eventually become.

Complete bullshit. Article 1 Section 8 describes that well Regulated Militia and what its duties are. Among those duties was to put DOWN the kinds of insurrections you're babbling about and in FACT the militia was called out to do exactly THAT in both Shay's Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion...

There were 3 State Militias called out for the Whiskey Rebellion. There was fear that the Federal Forces were so stripped by law they were ill equipped to handle it. It turned out the Whiskey Rebellion was found that no one was there to arrest since they moved to what would later be called Kentucky which was a territory at best at the time and well outside the jurisdiction of any State Militia.

The Shay's Rebellion was not under the Constitution of the United States. It was under the Articles of Confederation. There was a lot of graft under that by the various Governors and that is what set things off in the first place. It was about economics.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

"Using Heller". Heller very specifically decouples the Militia Clause from the 2A (ridiculously)...because Scalia knew that was a losing argument

It doesn't matter if it is decoupled from the Militia or not as by U.S. Code the Unorganized Militia is THE PEOPLE. The theory was the private citizens, not the government, needed to be armed, and ready, and they were to provide their own ARMS.

the militia is callable to Arms.

Or in many cases, it can be called up to do emergency work and not bring the weapons with them.

 

[westwall]

Here, I'll post this again as you all seem so desperate to bury it. Here are the words of the WRITER of the Constitution. You can take all of your blathering and stick it where the Sun don't shine, because THIS is the only person who's opinion on the subject matters.


"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

 

[danielpalos]

the right wing confuses the security of a free State with natural rights.

 

[Lesh]

Here, I'll post this again as you all seem so desperate to bury it. Here are the words of the WRITER of the Constitution. You can take all of your blathering and stick it where the Sun don't shine, because THIS is the only person who's opinion on the subject matters.


"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

But oddly...we base our laws and nation on the CONSTITUTION.

And the Constitution describes a "Well Regulated Militia" used to put down insurrections...and that is EXACTLY what it was used fr several times in the early days of our Republic

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Here, I'll post this again as you all seem so desperate to bury it. Here are the words of the WRITER of the Constitution. You can take all of your blathering and stick it where the Sun don't shine, because THIS is the only person who's opinion on the subject matters.


"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

But oddly...we base our laws and nation on the CONSTITUTION.

And the Constitution describes a "Well Regulated Militia" used to put down insurrections...and that is EXACTLY what it was used fr several times in the early days of our Republic

One of the reasons, I believe, that the Guards controlled solely by the Governors went by the way so quickly was that some of the Governors used the State Militias as their own private mob enforcement army. The Shay's Rebellion is a very good example of that. A Crooked Governor, crooked legislation on the take making laws that benefited certain rich cats that destroyed the Farmers and other businesses. Just remember that these same farmers and such had recently been the "Insurgents" for another cause that created a Nation. What came out of it? Hardly any deaths but a lot of terrified people that were pardoned even while being walked to the gallows. The biggest thing was, the State had a large armory and in order for the Farmers to have any chance against the State Militia they had to defeat the armory. The Farmers lacked the arms. The leaders ended up being arrested and put on trial and either found innocent or found guilty and then pardoned later.

Today, if a State were to do a similar thing, the Feds would be all over them. A Well Regulated Militia also means that it must be a Legally Well Regulated Militia. In this state, the State Guards were used to fire on unarmed striking Miners in Leadville in the late 1890s because the Governor sided with the Mine owner. In 1946, Westinghouse refused to abide by war promises to it's workers for a post war pay and benefits increase and the workers went on strike. The CEO demanded that the Governors and Truman send in troops. Truman, more or less, told him to go pound sand and that he would support the workers if violence was used against them by the governors. The Governors all sat down and shut up. That was the end of the Governors using their Guards and Militias as their own private armies.

 

[Lesh]

Wow. Reinventing history doesn't change the Constitution

Article 1 Section 8

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

Shay's Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion were....read this slowly....INSURRECTIONS...whether you agree with them or not...and THAT is part of why we HAD a "Well Regulated Militia".

Just the OPPOSITE of your claims

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Wow. Reinventing history doesn't change the Constitution

Article 1 Section 8

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

Shay's Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion were....read this slowly....INSURRECTIONS...whether you agree with them or not...and THAT is part of why we HAD a "Well Regulated Militia".

Just the OPPOSITE of your claims

What''s the matter. You don't like history as it really happened because it doesn't agree with our fantasy. And you complain about the ultrairightwingnutz for making it up as they go. The fact remains that the Governors did abuse the State Militia and it took the Feds to end that practice. You honestly believe that the United States was lilly white in it's early days. Even the Supreme Court got it's digs in.

As for the Whiskey Rebellion, nothing came out of it since the "Rebellious " were tipped off ahead of time and just moved their operation outside of the US domain. The 3 states that sent troops did so from the request by the US Government. The Governors had the right to refuse the request. At the time, many questioned the right of the Feds to even have that tax. There was NO bloodshed because there wasn't anyone around to shoot.

The Shay's rebellion was about a corrupt State Government working primarily for rich Corporations with total disregard for the well being of the Farmers and small businesses. The Taxes for transport, sales, etc. for their products meant that the Farmers couldn't even break even. And I think they were correct in rising up. Afterall, they had recently fought in a war against England for exactly the same reasons. Luckily,, the courts agreed that the State was wrong and it was set right. Ah, the old "Separation of Powers" comes into play. There was little bloodshed since all parties were just about sick and tired of war.

 

[danielpalos]

only the unorganized militia complains about gun control laws. too lazy to muster and become organized and useful to the security of a free State?

 

[westwall]

the right wing confuses the security of a free State with natural rights.

And you ignore the fact that to have a free State you must have natural Rights. That is what sets a free country apart from a fascist dictatorship like you want.

 

[westwall]

Here, I'll post this again as you all seem so desperate to bury it. Here are the words of the WRITER of the Constitution. You can take all of your blathering and stick it where the Sun don't shine, because THIS is the only person who's opinion on the subject matters.


"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

But oddly...we base our laws and nation on the CONSTITUTION.

And the Constitution describes a "Well Regulated Militia" used to put down insurrections...and that is EXACTLY what it was used fr several times in the early days of our Republic

Yes, the CONSTITUTION written by this man. His quotes prove that all of your infantile misinterpretations of what he wrote are just that, infantile misinterpretations.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

only the unorganized militia complains about gun control laws. too lazy to muster become organized and useful to the security of a free State?

If they become Organized, that means that their would be king leaders would no longer be the head honchos and that just can't happen.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Here, I'll post this again as you all seem so desperate to bury it. Here are the words of the WRITER of the Constitution. You can take all of your blathering and stick it where the Sun don't shine, because THIS is the only person who's opinion on the subject matters.


"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

But oddly...we base our laws and nation on the CONSTITUTION.

And the Constitution describes a "Well Regulated Militia" used to put down insurrections...and that is EXACTLY what it was used fr several times in the early days of our Republic

Yes, the CONSTITUTION written by this man. His quotes prove that all of your infantile misinterpretations of what he wrote are just that, infantile misinterpretations.

Damned, Westwall, for once I have to agree. Did you just feel the earth shudder? And I notice one other change. You seem to have taken one of my most favorite sports away from me. How dare you.

 

[danielpalos]

the right wing confuses the security of a free State with natural rights.

And you ignore the fact that to have a free State you must have natural Rights. That is what sets a free country apart from a fascist dictatorship like you want.

Our Constitutions recognize the concept of natural rights and provide legal recourse.

 

[Lesh]

Here, I'll post this again as you all seem so desperate to bury it. Here are the words of the WRITER of the Constitution. You can take all of your blathering and stick it where the Sun don't shine, because THIS is the only person who's opinion on the subject matters.


"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

But oddly...we base our laws and nation on the CONSTITUTION.

And the Constitution describes a "Well Regulated Militia" used to put down insurrections...and that is EXACTLY what it was used fr several times in the early days of our Republic

Yes, the CONSTITUTION written by this man. His quotes prove that all of your infantile misinterpretations of what he wrote are just that, infantile misinterpretations.

Our nation is ruled by the Constitution...not by what this guy or that guy claims.

The Constitution was NOT written by any one man. It was a compromise among many.

I stand by the Constitution

 

[Rigby5]

The 2nd Amendment is the guarantee that the PEOPLE will have a last resort when their government becomes illegitimate, as the Founders KNEW all governments eventually become.

Complete bullshit. Article 1 Section 8 describes that well Regulated Militia and what its duties are. Among those duties was to put DOWN the kinds of insurrections you're babbling about and in FACT the militia was called out to do exactly THAT in both Shay's Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion...

Wrong. While Article 1 does describe how the federal government can call upon the militia in order to put down illegal insurrections, that is NOT AT ALL the main purpose of the militia. And one of the main purposes of the militia has always been written by the founders, as to be able to rebel against tyranny. That is how this country was founded, rebellion against tyranny. The founders were always very vocal in tyranny being their MAIN concern.

 

[Rigby5]

Here, I'll post this again as you all seem so desperate to bury it. Here are the words of the WRITER of the Constitution. You can take all of your blathering and stick it where the Sun don't shine, because THIS is the only person who's opinion on the subject matters.


"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

But oddly...we base our laws and nation on the CONSTITUTION.

And the Constitution describes a "Well Regulated Militia" used to put down insurrections...and that is EXACTLY what it was used fr several times in the early days of our Republic

Yes, the CONSTITUTION written by this man. His quotes prove that all of your infantile misinterpretations of what he wrote are just that, infantile misinterpretations.

Our nation is ruled by the Constitution...not by what this guy or that guy claims.

The Constitution was NOT written by any one man. It was a compromise among many.

I stand by the Constitution

And it is impossible to deny the obvious fact that the Bill of Rights strictly prohibits ANY federal weapons regulations in the least. Any and all weapons jurisdiction is clearly completely denied to the federal government. And not just by the 2nd Amendment, but the 4th, 5th, and 14th amendments as well.

Anyone who even knows the least bit of US history knows this country was founded on rebellion against tyranny, and that was the single most important consideration the founders wanted to ensure could always happen again, when needed.
And they were all pretty clear they assumed it would periodically be needed. Anyone who knows history should know this. It simply is a fact that all government always become progressively corrupt. The fact there is ANY federal weapons legislation proves that. That is just as criminal as waterboarding.

 

[Rigby5]

the right wing confuses the security of a free State with natural rights.

And you ignore the fact that to have a free State you must have natural Rights. That is what sets a free country apart from a fascist dictatorship like you want.

Our Constitutions recognize the concept of natural rights and provide legal recourse.

Problem is there really is no practical legal recourse against abusive federal tyranny.
To fight illegal federal legislation costs tens of millions, takes a decade, and is still often ignored.
For example, it is totally obvious waterboarding is a crime, both under US and international law, but no one ever got prosecuted for that.
In fact, hundreds of illegal renditions were never prosecuted either.
And you can't even begin to undo the thousands of illegal assassinations by drone.

 

[westwall]

Here, I'll post this again as you all seem so desperate to bury it. Here are the words of the WRITER of the Constitution. You can take all of your blathering and stick it where the Sun don't shine, because THIS is the only person who's opinion on the subject matters.


"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

But oddly...we base our laws and nation on the CONSTITUTION.

And the Constitution describes a "Well Regulated Militia" used to put down insurrections...and that is EXACTLY what it was used fr several times in the early days of our Republic

Yes, the CONSTITUTION written by this man. His quotes prove that all of your infantile misinterpretations of what he wrote are just that, infantile misinterpretations.

Our nation is ruled by the Constitution...not by what this guy or that guy claims.

The Constitution was NOT written by any one man. It was a compromise among many.

I stand by the Constitution

Your claim is specious at best due to your attempt to pervert the meaning of the document you claim to care about. If you cared about it, you wouldn't try and misinterpret its meaning.