The Rise and Fall of the American Empire

[RandallFlagg]

Why is it that nutters...when prompted to discuss free stuff....never think of oil and ag subsidies first...and instead zoom in on the pittance that our less fortunate citizens are afforded?

Why is it that other nutters are unable to read the posts in a thread and see that the oil and ag subsidies are a direct result of the 'free stuff' mentality?

Honestly, I'm surprised that George Bush hasn't been resurrected yet...after all, everything is HIS fault...

 

[LoneLaugher]

All good points and belong in the mix of the dynamics for sure.

But WHY do the latinos, blacks, and many other demographic groups vote mostly Democratic even when their situation usually worsens when the Democrats are in power?

You are right that it is perception. But what is the perception? It is because the Republicans talk about fiscal responsibility and bringing down the debt and reducing deficits and balancing budgets and how that would offer more prosperity and security for everybody.

The Democrats accuse the Republicans of throwing granny off the cliff, of snatching food from the mouths of babes, and invading the wombs of women even as they promise more and more and more free stuff.

To the uneducated and media brainwashed out there, the free stuff sounds a lot better.

it is, it's all perception. for the latinos, the democrats talk about the path to citizenship. it should be relabled a voter registration drive. republicans are labled as the pro business corporate whores. and yes, in large part it is because of their economic philosophies. trickle down, build business to build jobs. but that gets lost when jobs get outsourced. no one sees that much of that outsourcing is due to unions making domestic labor unaffordable as well as lazy.

free stuff will always sound better.

Minimum wage = free money to those who don't merit even minimum wage.

Affirmative action = free opportunity for those who wouldn't otherwise qualify for it.

Amnesty = free citizenship and all the wonderful benefits, including freebies, that comes with it without having to go through the legal system everybody else has to cope with.

Medicare = free healthcare for all senior citizens since none of us will pay into it more than a fraction of even one hospitalization.

To those receiving the freebies, directly or indirectly, from the government, they don't CARE what it costs anybody else. They really like what they are getting or might get. So the politician who promises to get them a higher minimum wage, more affirmative action, speeded up amnesty, ramp up medicare, etc. etc. etc. is going to have a huge leg up on the politician who is campaigning on fiscal integrity.

Even as the experts were reporting how Obamacare would (and is) decimating Medicare, all Obama had to do was suggest Romney would take away some or part of their medicare to win a substantial percentage of the senior citizen vote.
It's like the school mock presidential campaign when one contestant gave a glowing speech on how he would improve the classroom and the school and general education.

His opponent gave a one line speech: "If I am elected, I will give everybody ice cream."

She won in a landslide.

Do you recall Romney and Ryan suggesting that Obama was stealing from Medicare?

Who were they talking to? Your theory fails.

 

[Foxfyre]

Okay, I'm showered, shaved, shined, shampooed, and off to do my medical taxi duties. I still haven't responded to everybody I want to respond to, but I shall return.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Sorry. I would like to say that this has been a great thread.....full of really thoughtful posts and making a real attempt to get at the core of political reality in America.

But, the idea that the people who voted for Obama...except for a very small number of far left wing Marxists......did so in order to procure free stuff is simply not substantiated.

This last post should have been your first, Fox......it would have saved me a good amount of time. Minimum wage laws, AA, amnesty and Medicare are FREE STUFF, you say.

Did Obama give ANY of that away? At all?


Then the OP just equated the American electorate to a bunch of kids looking for ice cream. How stupid.

Finally......TK just claimed want to be living in the 40's or 50's.....so he could value hard work. This UNEMPLOYED 26 year old fantasy gamer longs for the life of Opie Griffith or Beaver Cleaver. Too fucking much.

Whatever you receive that somebody else is required to pay for is 'free stuff'. It doesn't matter one whit what it is. If you get it without direct cost to you and somebody else gets the bill, it is 'free stuff' so far as you are concerned.

So don't get all caught up in the PC garbage and victimization mantra of the left that attempts to demonize those who know the difference between those who pay for what they get and those who pay for what others have. If you got it and somebody else got the bill for it, it is free stuff to you no matter how compassionate or noble or virtuous or important we view that free stuff to be.

Game. Set. Match. I'd say that's as stern as I've seen Fox get with someone. If LL valued hard work, he wouldn't be trashing my lifestyle rather than furthering his own.

 

[TemplarKormac]

it is, it's all perception. for the latinos, the democrats talk about the path to citizenship. it should be relabled a voter registration drive. republicans are labled as the pro business corporate whores. and yes, in large part it is because of their economic philosophies. trickle down, build business to build jobs. but that gets lost when jobs get outsourced. no one sees that much of that outsourcing is due to unions making domestic labor unaffordable as well as lazy.

free stuff will always sound better.

Minimum wage = free money to those who don't merit even minimum wage.

Affirmative action = free opportunity for those who wouldn't otherwise qualify for it.

Amnesty = free citizenship and all the wonderful benefits, including freebies, that comes with it without having to go through the legal system everybody else has to cope with.

Medicare = free healthcare for all senior citizens since none of us will pay into it more than a fraction of even one hospitalization.

To those receiving the freebies, directly or indirectly, from the government, they don't CARE what it costs anybody else. They really like what they are getting or might get. So the politician who promises to get them a higher minimum wage, more affirmative action, speeded up amnesty, ramp up medicare, etc. etc. etc. is going to have a huge leg up on the politician who is campaigning on fiscal integrity.

Even as the experts were reporting how Obamacare would (and is) decimating Medicare, all Obama had to do was suggest Romney would take away some or part of their medicare to win a substantial percentage of the senior citizen vote.
It's like the school mock presidential campaign when one contestant gave a glowing speech on how he would improve the classroom and the school and general education.

His opponent gave a one line speech: "If I am elected, I will give everybody ice cream."

She won in a landslide.

Do you recall Romney and Ryan suggesting that Obama was stealing from Medicare?

Who were they talking to? Your theory fails.

They were talking to Obama, apparently. He took $500 billion out of Medicare to pay for the ACA. Or were you not paying attention? Although they exaggerated the numbers, the principle was the same.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/obama...age-medicare-cuts/article/525626#.UCu8SkRy8dU

YOUR theory fails.

 

[boedicca]

Romney lost because to many looking at his dismal record in Massachusetts he seemed just slightly to the left of his opponent.

I know that's the assigned talking point, but you can't get around the fact that no president with as abyssmal record as Obama has provided in his first four years has ever been re-elected. But Obama was. So is it possible that there were dynamics at work that had nothing to do with eithe candidate except that Obama was the president promising free stuff and Romney was not?

Obama won because the executive branch bureaucrats turned into his army (the IRS against the tea party) and because the MSM has never fact checked or vetted him.

I don't think any other candidate will quite get this type of "pass", except for maybe Hillary.

Why we might be saved from the decline: the younger generation that is getting screwed by Obamacare, enormous student loans (chains courtesy of the gubmint), and lack of economic growth to create decent jobs. Will young people just be sheep or will they say Enough? I'm hoping the latter.

 

[Spoonman]

Why is it that nutters...when prompted to discuss free stuff....never think of oil and ag subsidies first...and instead zoom in on the pittance that our less fortunate citizens are afforded?

lets take a look at what corporations who get Free stuff provide in return to the community as opposed to those individuals who get free stuff and return nothing. how many jobs do the entitled provide? how many necessary goods and services do they provide? how many of their products bring outside revenue into this country? lets look at the real picture. what is the return on investment for both cases?

 

[LoneLaugher]

Sorry. I would like to say that this has been a great thread.....full of really thoughtful posts and making a real attempt to get at the core of political reality in America.

But, the idea that the people who voted for Obama...except for a very small number of far left wing Marxists......did so in order to procure free stuff is simply not substantiated.

This last post should have been your first, Fox......it would have saved me a good amount of time. Minimum wage laws, AA, amnesty and Medicare are FREE STUFF, you say.

Did Obama give ANY of that away? At all?


Then the OP just equated the American electorate to a bunch of kids looking for ice cream. How stupid.

Finally......TK just claimed want to be living in the 40's or 50's.....so he could value hard work. This UNEMPLOYED 26 year old fantasy gamer longs for the life of Opie Griffith or Beaver Cleaver. Too fucking much.

Whatever you receive that somebody else is required to pay for is 'free stuff'. It doesn't matter one whit what it is. If you get it without direct cost to you and somebody else gets the bill, it is 'free stuff' so far as you are concerned.

So don't get all caught up in the PC garbage and victimization mantra of the left that attempts to demonize those who know the difference between those who pay for what they get and those who pay for what others have. If you got it and somebody else got the bill for it, it is free stuff to you no matter how compassionate or noble or virtuous or important we view that free stuff to be.

Game. Set. Match. I'd say that's as stern as I've seen Fox get with someone. If LL valued hard work, he wouldn't be trashing my lifestyle rather than furthering his own.

I further my own every day with a solid 6-8 hours of really smart work. I sold a custom tool today that cost more than the car you borrow. Then I had a nice long lunch meeting with my broker. He paid.

I do not trash your lifestyle....I trash your lack of work ethic and failure to even want a job. Hard working poor people are to be honored. You are not one of them.

To you EVERYTHING is free.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Obama won because the masses were too incapable of free thought. Too compelled by the prospect of free things and entitlements the feel they so richly "deserved." So blinded by this they voted with their hearts, not their heads. They voted for hope and got despair. The voted for change, but instead got the status quo.


[MENTION=4301]boedicca[/MENTION]

I am a young man who chose to forgo the bondage of student loans, and will not be participating in Obamacare. I did not take in unemployment, I do not live on welfare or SSI. I choose not to further indebt an already indebted government. If you are looking for that one bright light to save this nation from the abyss, I shall serve as the first of many. I shall make it clear we are not as naive as these politicians think we are. I've watched and observed, and I've learned from the mistakes of the older adults before me. It will be ensured that the fates that have befallen my generation will not lay claim to the next. Perhaps I will be inspired one day to lead them in to a glorious new American dawn.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Why is it that nutters...when prompted to discuss free stuff....never think of oil and ag subsidies first...and instead zoom in on the pittance that our less fortunate citizens are afforded?

lets take a look at what corporations who get Free stuff provide in return to the community as opposed to those individuals who get free stuff and return nothing. how many jobs do the entitled provide? how many necessary goods and services do they provide? how many of their products bring outside revenue into this country? lets look at the real picture. what is the return on investment for both cases?

Idiot. They use every penny to create jobs. They spend every penny of the money they earn working.......and the assistance they may receive.....just living. That creates jobs. Think for once.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Obama won because the masses were too incapable of free thought. Too compelled by the prospect of free things and entitlements the feel they so richly "deserved." So blinded by this they voted with their hearts, not their heads. They voted for hope and got despair. The voted for change, but instead got the status quo.


[MENTION=4301]boedicca[/MENTION]

I am a young man who chose to forgo the bondage of student debt, and will not be participating in Obamacare. If you are looking for that one bright light, I shall serve as the first of many. I shall make it clear we are not as naive as these politicians think we are. I've watched and observed, and I've learned from the mistakes of the older adults before me. It will be ensured that the fates that have befallen my generation will not lay claim to the next.

You won't be participating in Obamacare? Interesting. Do you have insurance?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Why is it that nutters...when prompted to discuss free stuff....never think of oil and ag subsidies first...and instead zoom in on the pittance that our less fortunate citizens are afforded?

lets take a look at what corporations who get Free stuff provide in return to the community as opposed to those individuals who get free stuff and return nothing. how many jobs do the entitled provide? how many necessary goods and services do they provide? how many of their products bring outside revenue into this country? lets look at the real picture. what is the return on investment for both cases?

Idiot. They use every penny to create jobs. They spend every penny of the money they earn working.......and the assistance they may receive.....just living. That creates jobs. Think for once.

Then where are the jobs, pray tell? How exactly can a man make his living on the backs of others?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Obama won because the masses were too incapable of free thought. Too compelled by the prospect of free things and entitlements the feel they so richly "deserved." So blinded by this they voted with their hearts, not their heads. They voted for hope and got despair. The voted for change, but instead got the status quo.


[MENTION=4301]boedicca[/MENTION]

I am a young man who chose to forgo the bondage of student debt, and will not be participating in Obamacare. If you are looking for that one bright light, I shall serve as the first of many. I shall make it clear we are not as naive as these politicians think we are. I've watched and observed, and I've learned from the mistakes of the older adults before me. It will be ensured that the fates that have befallen my generation will not lay claim to the next.

You won't be participating in Obamacare? Interesting. Do you have insurance?

No, I won't be, I shall travel the inner depths of hell itself before I ever take part in it.

 

[boedicca]

Why is it that nutters...when prompted to discuss free stuff....never think of oil and ag subsidies first...and instead zoom in on the pittance that our less fortunate citizens are afforded?

lets take a look at what corporations who get Free stuff provide in return to the community as opposed to those individuals who get free stuff and return nothing. how many jobs do the entitled provide? how many necessary goods and services do they provide? how many of their products bring outside revenue into this country? lets look at the real picture. what is the return on investment for both cases?

Idiot. They use every penny to create jobs. They spend every penny of the money they earn working.......and the assistance they may receive.....just living. That creates jobs. Think for once.

Moron. The money they spend was taken away from somebody else, so it provides not net contribution to the economy. It's a variation on Bastiat's Parable of the Broken Window, only in this case it's the Parable of the Picked Pocket.

Have you ever witnessed the anger of the good shopkeeper, James Goodfellow, when his careless son has happened to break a pane of glass? If you have been present at such a scene, you will most assuredly bear witness to the fact that every one of the spectators, were there even thirty of them, by common consent apparently, offered the unfortunate owner this invariable consolation – "It is an ill wind that blows nobody good. Everybody must live, and what would become of the glaziers if panes of glass were never broken?"

Now, this form of condolence contains an entire theory, which it will be well to show up in this simple case, seeing that it is precisely the same as that which, unhappily, regulates the greater part of our economical institutions.

Suppose it cost six francs to repair the damage, and you say that the accident brings six francs to the glazier's trade – that it encourages that trade to the amount of six francs – I grant it; I have not a word to say against it; you reason justly. The glazier comes, performs his task, receives his six francs, rubs his hands, and, in his heart, blesses the careless child. All this is that which is seen.

But if, on the other hand, you come to the conclusion, as is too often the case, that it is a good thing to break windows, that it causes money to circulate, and that the encouragement of industry in general will be the result of it, you will oblige me to call out, "Stop there! Your theory is confined to that which is seen; it takes no account of that which is not seen."

It is not seen that as our shopkeeper has spent six francs upon one thing, he cannot spend them upon another. It is not seen that if he had not had a window to replace, he would, perhaps, have replaced his old shoes, or added another book to his library. In short, he would have employed his six francs in some way, which this accident has prevented.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

 

[RandallFlagg]

lets take a look at what corporations who get Free stuff provide in return to the community as opposed to those individuals who get free stuff and return nothing. how many jobs do the entitled provide? how many necessary goods and services do they provide? how many of their products bring outside revenue into this country? lets look at the real picture. what is the return on investment for both cases?

Idiot. They use every penny to create jobs. They spend every penny of the money they earn working.......and the assistance they may receive.....just living. That creates jobs. Think for once.

Moron. The money they spend was taken away from somebody else, so it provides not net contribution to the economy. It's a variation on Bastiat's Parable of the Broken Window, only in this case it's the Parable of the Picked Pocket.

Have you ever witnessed the anger of the good shopkeeper, James Goodfellow, when his careless son has happened to break a pane of glass? If you have been present at such a scene, you will most assuredly bear witness to the fact that every one of the spectators, were there even thirty of them, by common consent apparently, offered the unfortunate owner this invariable consolation – "It is an ill wind that blows nobody good. Everybody must live, and what would become of the glaziers if panes of glass were never broken?"

Now, this form of condolence contains an entire theory, which it will be well to show up in this simple case, seeing that it is precisely the same as that which, unhappily, regulates the greater part of our economical institutions.

Suppose it cost six francs to repair the damage, and you say that the accident brings six francs to the glazier's trade – that it encourages that trade to the amount of six francs – I grant it; I have not a word to say against it; you reason justly. The glazier comes, performs his task, receives his six francs, rubs his hands, and, in his heart, blesses the careless child. All this is that which is seen.

But if, on the other hand, you come to the conclusion, as is too often the case, that it is a good thing to break windows, that it causes money to circulate, and that the encouragement of industry in general will be the result of it, you will oblige me to call out, "Stop there! Your theory is confined to that which is seen; it takes no account of that which is not seen."

It is not seen that as our shopkeeper has spent six francs upon one thing, he cannot spend them upon another. It is not seen that if he had not had a window to replace, he would, perhaps, have replaced his old shoes, or added another book to his library. In short, he would have employed his six francs in some way, which this accident has prevented.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

My God! I haven't been reminded of that since my days at the University of Louisville in the 70s......thanks for the memories!! and, the statement of fact!!

 

[L.K.Eder]

Obama won because the masses were too incapable of free thought. Too compelled by the prospect of free things and entitlements the feel they so richly "deserved." So blinded by this they voted with their hearts, not their heads. They voted for hope and got despair. The voted for change, but instead got the status quo.


@boedicca

I am a young man who chose to forgo the bondage of student debt, and will not be participating in Obamacare. If you are looking for that one bright light, I shall serve as the first of many. I shall make it clear we are not as naive as these politicians think we are. I've watched and observed, and I've learned from the mistakes of the older adults before me. It will be ensured that the fates that have befallen my generation will not lay claim to the next.

You won't be participating in Obamacare? Interesting. Do you have insurance?

No, I won't be, I shall travel the inner depths of hell itself before I ever take part in it.

but what if you hurt your most prodigious game finger?

 

[LoneLaugher]

Game. Set. Match. I'd say that's as stern as I've seen Fox get with someone. If LL valued hard work, he wouldn't be trashing my lifestyle rather than furthering his own.

I further my own every day with a solid 6-8 hours of really smart work. I sold a custom tool today that cost more than the car you borrow. Then I had a nice long lunch meeting with my broker. He paid.

I do not trash your lifestyle....I trash your lack of work ethic and failure to even want a job. Hard working poor people are to be honored. You are not one of them.

To you EVERYTHING is free.

i bet you could not sell this TK tool.

Hmmmm? How would I sell a tool such as him? I'd have to identify a market first. Let me give it some thought.

 

[Mac1958]

.

I don't think our decline is about "free stuff". The "free stuff" thing is a symptom of a larger problem - our culture is in rapid decline and it's pulling us down with it.

Look at our popular culture - Holy shit, I was going to give examples, but anyone who actually needs examples is in such denial that I would be wasting my time.

Look at our educational system - we're now seeing the predictable result of placing a higher priority on self esteem than on ability: Confident Idiots: American Students Growing More Confident, Less Capable

We continue to lower standards, make excuses, claim victimhood. So, we're in decline, we're reaping what we've sowed. Capitalism worked too well, it made us soft.

The "free stuff"? Meh. In the big picture, it doesn't really cost that much. What's killing us is a culture in decay.

.

More reactionary fear and nonsense.

Change is not ‘decay.’

One could go back 50 years and hear reactionaries whining about “What's killing us is a culture in decay.”

Or go back 100 years, or 200 – or 2000 years, for that matter; every generation of every culture since the advent of civilization has had a static population of reactionary conservatives fearfully bemoaning “What's killing us is a culture in decay.”

If you don't see decay in our culture, then I suspect you're either agreeing with it or don't care about it. I'm tempted to provide examples -- goodness knows I could go on forever -- but I know I'd be wasting both my time and this site's bandwidth.

.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Obama won because the masses were too incapable of free thought. Too compelled by the prospect of free things and entitlements the feel they so richly "deserved." So blinded by this they voted with their hearts, not their heads. They voted for hope and got despair. The voted for change, but instead got the status quo.


[MENTION=4301]boedicca[/MENTION]

I am a young man who chose to forgo the bondage of student debt, and will not be participating in Obamacare. If you are looking for that one bright light, I shall serve as the first of many. I shall make it clear we are not as naive as these politicians think we are. I've watched and observed, and I've learned from the mistakes of the older adults before me. It will be ensured that the fates that have befallen my generation will not lay claim to the next.

You won't be participating in Obamacare? Interesting. Do you have insurance?

No, I won't be, I shall travel the inner depths of hell itself before I ever take part in it.

Do you have insurance?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Whatever you receive that somebody else is required to pay for is 'free stuff'. It doesn't matter one whit what it is. If you get it without direct cost to you and somebody else gets the bill, it is 'free stuff' so far as you are concerned.

So don't get all caught up in the PC garbage and victimization mantra of the left that attempts to demonize those who know the difference between those who pay for what they get and those who pay for what others have. If you got it and somebody else got the bill for it, it is free stuff to you no matter how compassionate or noble or virtuous or important we view that free stuff to be.

Game. Set. Match. I'd say that's as stern as I've seen Fox get with someone. If LL valued hard work, he wouldn't be trashing my lifestyle rather than furthering his own.

I further my own every day with a solid 6-8 hours of really smart work. I sold a custom tool today that cost more than the car you borrow. Then I had a nice long lunch meeting with my broker. He paid.

I do not trash your lifestyle....I trash your lack of work ethic and failure to even want a job. Hard working poor people are to be honored. You are not one of them.

To you EVERYTHING is free.

Smart work huh? You can manage to do "smart work" but do and say the most absolutely dumbest things here. How do you manage it?

I am a caregiver. I take care of my elderly grandmother around the clock. I will gladly not take in a job if it means taking care of her. Her health and wellbeing are my utmost concern. Making her smile is all the payment I need. My notion of work ethic is far superior to yours. You have no clue the meaning of back breaking labor, I do. You don't have to pick up a frail old woman from the floor each time she stumbles and falls. You don't heed to the beck and call of those you care about, but rather to money and politics. You speak of caring for the poor, but from what you told me, you are far from it. Those who are rich but care not for the poor they extol are hypocrites.

I shall not have the likes of you judging me. Such devotion to family is lost in this world. DO NOT DARE impugn yourself on me, you unnatural noise.

People who have true love and compassion in their hearts are to be honored. You are not one of them.