The Rise and Fall of the American Empire

[Foxfyre]

.

I don't think our decline is about "free stuff". The "free stuff" thing is a symptom of a larger problem - our culture is in rapid decline and it's pulling us down with it.

Look at our popular culture - Holy shit, I was going to give examples, but anyone who actually needs examples is in such denial that I would be wasting my time.

Look at our educational system - we're now seeing the predictable result of placing a higher priority on self esteem than on ability: Confident Idiots: American Students Growing More Confident, Less Capable

We continue to lower standards, make excuses, claim victimhood. So, we're in decline, we're reaping what we've sowed. Capitalism worked too well, it made us soft.

The "free stuff"? Meh. In the big picture, it doesn't really cost that much. What's killing us is a culture in decay.

.

Here is another one of my blogs at USA Carry which kind a addresses some of your thoughts? I go by One78Shovel at that site

-Geaux

Why I Am Losing Hope

8 Comments
by One78Shovel , 04-05-2013 at 06:04 AM (714 Views)

Because I was raised to love God & Country. My grandparents were hard working tobacco farmers for all their lives. They never ventured far from their home in Tennessee. During my youth, I spent my summers there working in the hot August fields and in the top of some bat and spider infested barns. But you know what? It felt like Utopia. The family would gather on Sundays for dinner (lunch down south) then retire to the vast fields for games of baseball until the lighting bugs blinked at sunset. America was a different place then. It was a place were a man was judged by the sweat off his brow and how he provided for his family. As grandma used to say; "I don't care if you dig a ditch for a living, just dig it to the best of your ability". They were true Americans who taught me the value and pride which comes from a hard days work.

I have tried to pass the culture to my son's. And to some extent, it is still a work in progress. It's just hard for them to see the forest through the trees. Some today get more fired up about a new release of the Ipad than it does at the prospects of employment. Sad

What would my grandparents think today of the America that turned it's back on their values? I picture the Indian with a tear in his eye (viewing litter) from the commercial years ago. The difference today is he would be reduced to a mere man on his knees viewing the cesspool society has manifested and nurtured.

The election was a referendum on the American Dream as my generation knew it. The shear fact that a little over half of us (America collectively) voted for the continued weakening of our National Sovernity is hard to stomach.

I can only hope the reason immigrants flock to America is because of the image it used to reflect, not the image of today. But as the subj: reads, I am on the slippery slope called hope and am growing more bitter by the day.

I, too, was raised similarly. My Father was a career military officer. My Mother was a Chemist. Our Grandparents (both sides) owned farms; a dairy farm and a truck farm.

We spent our summers as children on these farms learning how to be good, decent people. We worked hard, we played hard and we learned what "family" was all about. Both my parents and Grandparents lived through the great depression as blacks. They worked their fingers to the bones. They hunted and fished and they made it through. They never made an "excuse". Never once. They fought in World War I, World War II, and Korea. My Brother and I fought in Vietnam. Why? Because it was a debt OWED to our country for all that it had provided for US.

We were taught to believe in God, Country and Family. Your choice as to the particular order, yet that was the way the family placed priorities. Nothing - and I mean NOTHING, came between those three principles.

Look at the state of America today. Where is God? Where is Country? Where is Family?

You answer those three simple questions and you'll have your answer as to the decline of this country. It's really not so hard that it requires a team of Anthropology professors to write 5,000 word papers on the subject. It's right there; directly in front of our faces.

I don't disagree.

The Rabbi of the OP would say that it is 'free stuff' that brought us to this sorry state.

Would you agree?

 

[Spoonman]

But what is partisanship other than picking sides on what the role of government is? Those on the right are those who at least philosophically agree with the Founders on that. Government is to secure our rights and initiate sufficient regulation to allow the various states to function as one nation. And then it will leave us strictly alone to live our lives in freedom and create whatever sort of societies we wish to have.

But even those on the right, once they receive free stuff from the government and get used to getting it, have a hard time willingly giving it up.

Those on the left see government as something that is supposed to regulate us and order and control the society and protect us from all evil and provide what we need. It's a no brainer that such people become dependent on government or the perceived security they think government provides and they defend it vigorously.

So it doesn't take a genius to see that those on the left will vote to keep the free stuff. And if you have just enough on the right who just can't bring themselves to risk even the small amount of free stuff they are receiving, it doesn't take a math wizard to come up with enough votes to keep the 'free stuff' people like Obama in power indefinitely.

those are the text book explainations of what the right and the left are all about. but in reality when the republicans are in power, welfare doesn't stop. it isn't even reduced. when the democrats are in power, corporations don't suffer.

but see, its all about perception. and the democrats have made themselves be perceived as the party of free stuff. Obamphones were original a reagan plan. Obamacare, Romney plan. the democrats have championed themselves ad the givers of the free stuff and as the benfactors of the growing demographics in this country. latino, black, entitled. in truth, they are really no better off when the democrats are in power. but they perceive they are. so a growing number are partisan to the left.

All good points and belong in the mix of the dynamics for sure.

But WHY do the latinos, blacks, and many other demographic groups vote mostly Democratic even when their situation usually worsens when the Democrats are in power?

You are right that it is perception. But what is the perception? It is because the Republicans talk about fiscal responsibility and bringing down the debt and reducing deficits and balancing budgets and how that would offer more prosperity and security for everybody.

The Democrats accuse the Republicans of throwing granny off the cliff, of snatching food from the mouths of babes, and invading the wombs of women even as they promise more and more and more free stuff.

To the uneducated and media brainwashed out there, the free stuff sounds a lot better.

it is, it's all perception. for the latinos, the democrats talk about the path to citizenship. it should be relabled a voter registration drive. republicans are labled as the pro business corporate whores. and yes, in large part it is because of their economic philosophies. trickle down, build business to build jobs. but that gets lost when jobs get outsourced. no one sees that much of that outsourcing is due to unions making domestic labor unaffordable as well as lazy.

free stuff will always sound better.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Come to think of it, I was born in a generation where you earned your stuff. You never asked for free stuff unless you shed blood sweat and tears for it. Nowadays even the money I slaved for is given freely to someone sitting on their couch. This appalls me to no end. This nation has no backbone anymore. I am only 26 years of age, and I would have rather lived in a time similar to the 1940s and 1950s, when people didn't feel entitled to free stuff, but to a hard day's work. I fear my nation will meet it's great end in my lifetime.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Here is another one of my blogs at USA Carry which kind a addresses some of your thoughts? I go by One78Shovel at that site

-Geaux

Why I Am Losing Hope

8 Comments
by One78Shovel , 04-05-2013 at 06:04 AM (714 Views)

Because I was raised to love God & Country. My grandparents were hard working tobacco farmers for all their lives. They never ventured far from their home in Tennessee. During my youth, I spent my summers there working in the hot August fields and in the top of some bat and spider infested barns. But you know what? It felt like Utopia. The family would gather on Sundays for dinner (lunch down south) then retire to the vast fields for games of baseball until the lighting bugs blinked at sunset. America was a different place then. It was a place were a man was judged by the sweat off his brow and how he provided for his family. As grandma used to say; "I don't care if you dig a ditch for a living, just dig it to the best of your ability". They were true Americans who taught me the value and pride which comes from a hard days work.

I have tried to pass the culture to my son's. And to some extent, it is still a work in progress. It's just hard for them to see the forest through the trees. Some today get more fired up about a new release of the Ipad than it does at the prospects of employment. Sad

What would my grandparents think today of the America that turned it's back on their values? I picture the Indian with a tear in his eye (viewing litter) from the commercial years ago. The difference today is he would be reduced to a mere man on his knees viewing the cesspool society has manifested and nurtured.

The election was a referendum on the American Dream as my generation knew it. The shear fact that a little over half of us (America collectively) voted for the continued weakening of our National Sovernity is hard to stomach.

I can only hope the reason immigrants flock to America is because of the image it used to reflect, not the image of today. But as the subj: reads, I am on the slippery slope called hope and am growing more bitter by the day.

I, too, was raised similarly. My Father was a career military officer. My Mother was a Chemist. Our Grandparents (both sides) owned farms; a dairy farm and a truck farm.

We spent our summers as children on these farms learning how to be good, decent people. We worked hard, we played hard and we learned what "family" was all about. Both my parents and Grandparents lived through the great depression as blacks. They worked their fingers to the bones. They hunted and fished and they made it through. They never made an "excuse". Never once. They fought in World War I, World War II, and Korea. My Brother and I fought in Vietnam. Why? Because it was a debt OWED to our country for all that it had provided for US.

We were taught to believe in God, Country and Family. Your choice as to the particular order, yet that was the way the family placed priorities. Nothing - and I mean NOTHING, came between those three principles.

Look at the state of America today. Where is God? Where is Country? Where is Family?

You answer those three simple questions and you'll have your answer as to the decline of this country. It's really not so hard that it requires a team of Anthropology professors to write 5,000 word papers on the subject. It's right there; directly in front of our faces.

I don't disagree.

The Rabbi of the OP would say that it is 'free stuff' that brought us to this sorry state.

Would you agree?

I agree to the extent that it is only "one more thing" in a long line of detrimental extremes in America that, when taken as a whole, prove that our culture has become complacent, selfish, over-bearing and distrustful of everything and everybody.

I would guess that until the end of the Vietnam war, it would be impossible for the United States to be in the state that we are currently in. Before that, I could never have envisioned a time when this country would be so susceptible to the poison that is the current apathy run rampant in America. Why? Frankly, I believe that the "blame" (as well intentioned as it was) can be placed squarely on the backs of the parents of the baby-boomers.

Our folks - maybe your grandparents - led rough lives. It was not at all uncommon to starve to death in those times; then came the World Wars. They fought for their collective right to exist as a nation. We have all heard the saying that "were it not for our parents, we would all be speaking German now".

Then came the end of the War. Prosperity became the norm. So, our parents and grandparents went to work making babies. Hell, who could blame them? Then they bought homes, they moved into subdivisions where life was much easier. They sent their kids off to shiny new public schools and universities. They gave their children all those things and opportunities that they would have never have imagined for themselves. Life was good.

Problem was, those kids - like myself, became accustomed to "receiving". Hard work stood aside for "vacations" every year. Hell, I remember a time when only the very rich had credit cards. Now, everyone has at least one and probably 5 more. We became used to INSTANT gratification - not saving and savoring. Purchasing a home - something that our parents worked their entire lives for - became nothing more than a weekend shopping spree and purchase; whether we could afford it or not. Hey! If we had to declare bankruptcy - who cares?? Everyone is doing it!!

We have Television with 500 choices. We have the Internet where ANYTHING is possible. We have cell phones where we can call or text our BFFs in a heartbeat. We have computers that work at lightning speed. WE work from home, from our cars, at the coffee shops, at the theaters, in our beds. We have commercials about tampons, lubricants, male pattern baldness, toilet paper, mens depends, sex in the bedroom, ad nauseum.

We don't trust anyone any longer. We don't converse with our neighbors, we just don't have time to "get involved" any longer. Our divorce rate is well over 50% now. 50% of marriages end in divorce. We don't believe in our country, we believe in "party" over country. We believe those whom with we disagree are "evil" and turn our political process into a cheap stylized version of Thursday night WWE.

So yes, "free stuff: is nothing more than another "nail in our collective coffin"

 

[Care4all]

Then the people that have less to give need to work harder so they can enjoy the benefits of such work ethic.

Incentive = productivity in the work place

-Geaux

huh? work harder for what? both people in my example earn the same income and make the same money and work just as hard, yet 1 is given favoritism and a lower tax burden than his income equal who doesn't own a home....

Home ownership/buying is among the top tier of things that support our economy the best.
I'm sorry but renting an apartment just doesn't deserve the same tax break

Why? the renter IS THE ONE paying for the property taxes and for the Interest payment to the banks, and then on top of that, does the homeowner get to write off the interest payments on his taxes due also?

and what about the people that were responsible and saved up their money their entire lives so that they could purchase a home with CASH, like Matt and me....WHY SHOULD we pay more in taxes because we were responsible and saved pennies, a little at a time instead of owning that new car every 5 years we kept them for 12 years..... instead of taking that nice vacation we went to the park around the corner....

Yet people like me have to pay more in taxes for the exact same income earned as the guy who had to borrow money for a home....just to make up the difference that the gvt is giving him.....

It's truly not right and just....horty

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The American empire began to decline in 2007, and the deterioration has been exacerbated in the last five years. This election only hastens that decline. Society is permeated with sloth, greed, envy and materialistic excess. It has lost its moorings and its moral foundations. The takers outnumber the givers, and that will only increase in years to come. Across the world, America under Bush was feared but not respected. Under Obama, America is neither feared nor respected. Radical Islam has had a banner four years under Obama, and its prospects for future growth look excellent. The “Occupy” riots across this country in the last two years were mere dress rehearsals for what lies ahead – years of unrest sparked by the increasing discontent of the unsuccessful who want to seize the fruits and the bounty of the successful, and do not appreciate the slow pace of redistribution.

Ignorant reactionary nonsense.

As reactionaries conservatives fear change, diversity, and an inclusive society. As a consequence of this fear of change, they engage in ridiculous hyperbole and demagoguery such as the above about American ‘decline,’ loss of ‘moral foundations,’ and ‘takers outnumbering givers’ – the same tedious and wrong rightwing bumper sticker, talking point mentality.

America is currently a great and powerful country, and the best America is yet to come, provided it remains true to its fundamental tenets of individual liberty, acceptance of diversity and dissent, and respect for the rule of law.

And America’s problems can only be successfully addressed in a factual, pragmatic manner, not by the false, simplistic, naïve ‘solutions’ found in failed conservative dogma.

 

[Foxfyre]

those are the text book explainations of what the right and the left are all about. but in reality when the republicans are in power, welfare doesn't stop. it isn't even reduced. when the democrats are in power, corporations don't suffer.

but see, its all about perception. and the democrats have made themselves be perceived as the party of free stuff. Obamphones were original a reagan plan. Obamacare, Romney plan. the democrats have championed themselves ad the givers of the free stuff and as the benfactors of the growing demographics in this country. latino, black, entitled. in truth, they are really no better off when the democrats are in power. but they perceive they are. so a growing number are partisan to the left.

All good points and belong in the mix of the dynamics for sure.

But WHY do the latinos, blacks, and many other demographic groups vote mostly Democratic even when their situation usually worsens when the Democrats are in power?

You are right that it is perception. But what is the perception? It is because the Republicans talk about fiscal responsibility and bringing down the debt and reducing deficits and balancing budgets and how that would offer more prosperity and security for everybody.

The Democrats accuse the Republicans of throwing granny off the cliff, of snatching food from the mouths of babes, and invading the wombs of women even as they promise more and more and more free stuff.

To the uneducated and media brainwashed out there, the free stuff sounds a lot better.

it is, it's all perception. for the latinos, the democrats talk about the path to citizenship. it should be relabled a voter registration drive. republicans are labled as the pro business corporate whores. and yes, in large part it is because of their economic philosophies. trickle down, build business to build jobs. but that gets lost when jobs get outsourced. no one sees that much of that outsourcing is due to unions making domestic labor unaffordable as well as lazy.

free stuff will always sound better.

Minimum wage = free money to those who don't merit even minimum wage.

Affirmative action = free opportunity for those who wouldn't otherwise qualify for it.

Amnesty = free citizenship and all the wonderful benefits, including freebies, that comes with it without having to go through the legal system everybody else has to cope with.

Medicare = free healthcare for all senior citizens since none of us will pay into it more than a fraction of even one hospitalization.

To those receiving the freebies, directly or indirectly, from the government, they don't CARE what it costs anybody else. They really like what they are getting or might get. So the politician who promises to get them a higher minimum wage, more affirmative action, speeded up amnesty, ramp up medicare, etc. etc. etc. is going to have a huge leg up on the politician who is campaigning on fiscal integrity.

Even as the experts were reporting how Obamacare would (and is) decimating Medicare, all Obama had to do was suggest Romney would take away some or part of their medicare to win a substantial percentage of the senior citizen vote.

It's like the school mock presidential campaign when one contestant gave a glowing speech on how he would improve the classroom and the school and general education.

His opponent gave a one line speech: "If I am elected, I will give everybody ice cream."

She won in a landslide.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

.

I don't think our decline is about "free stuff". The "free stuff" thing is a symptom of a larger problem - our culture is in rapid decline and it's pulling us down with it.

Look at our popular culture - Holy shit, I was going to give examples, but anyone who actually needs examples is in such denial that I would be wasting my time.

Look at our educational system - we're now seeing the predictable result of placing a higher priority on self esteem than on ability: Confident Idiots: American Students Growing More Confident, Less Capable

We continue to lower standards, make excuses, claim victimhood. So, we're in decline, we're reaping what we've sowed. Capitalism worked too well, it made us soft.

The "free stuff"? Meh. In the big picture, it doesn't really cost that much. What's killing us is a culture in decay.

.

More reactionary fear and nonsense.

Change is not ‘decay.’

One could go back 50 years and hear reactionaries whining about “What's killing us is a culture in decay.”

Or go back 100 years, or 200 – or 2000 years, for that matter; every generation of every culture since the advent of civilization has had a static population of reactionary conservatives fearfully bemoaning “What's killing us is a culture in decay.”

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm not abandoning the thoughtful portions of the discussion folks and several have made really insightful posts that merit comment or response. I have to do medical taxi service in a bit for a loved one and I simply must get to the shower and get dressed a bit better, but I shall return.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Come to think of it, I was born in a generation where you earned your stuff. You never asked for free stuff unless you shed blood sweat and tears for it. Nowadays even the money I slaved for is given freely to someone sitting on their couch. This appalls me to no end. This nation has no backbone anymore. I am only 26 years of age, and I would have rather lived in a time similar to the 1940s and 1950s, when people didn't feel entitled to free stuff, but the to hard day's work. I fear my nation will meet it's great end in my lifetime.

‘Nowadays…”

The preamble of the fearful, ignorant reactionary conservative.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

When you were born there were rightwing nitwits whining about ‘nowadays,’ ‘moral decay,’ a ‘loss of greatness,’ and ‘everyone with his hand out,’ the same as now, the same as 50 years ago.

Pathetic fantasies about an American past that never actually existed to begin with is the hallmark of the reactionary American conservative.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Sorry. I would like to say that this has been a great thread.....full of really thoughtful posts and making a real attempt to get at the core of political reality in America.

But, the idea that the people who voted for Obama...except for a very small number of far left wing Marxists......did so in order to procure free stuff is simply not substantiated.

This last post should have been your first, Fox......it would have saved me a good amount of time. Minimum wage laws, AA, amnesty and Medicare are FREE STUFF, you say.

Did Obama give ANY of that away? At all?


Then the OP just equated the American electorate to a bunch of kids looking for ice cream. How stupid.

Finally......TK just claimed want to be living in the 40's or 50's.....so he could value hard work. This UNEMPLOYED 26 year old fantasy gamer longs for the life of Opie Griffith or Beaver Cleaver. Too fucking much.

 

[Mustang]

The following is excerpted from a longer piece available at the link:


I wonder if anybody cares?

Nonsense.

Average Americas have been getting the shaft for going on about 30 years now since that idiotic economic idea (it's not a theory) of supply side economics took hold, and big money captured the electoral process. The trend has only accelerated in recent years,

And average Americans increasingly understood prior to the election that the game is stacked against them.

They took a look at Romney and his secretive overseas bank accounts, his carried interest earnings, and his tax rate of less than 15% of millions of dollars and knew one thing for sure: Romney wasn't a shill working for the big money men like a lot of current and former DC politicians. He WAS a big money man who had directly benefited from the new grafting of big money interests onto legislative agendas, and the American people could see where his sympathies were. (Hint: it wasn't with average folks)

So, average Americans asked themselves a question, and that question was this: How stupid am I? And the answer, quite unsurprisingly is that most of them were not stupid enough to vote for Romney.

Actually, according to your own spinning and twisting, Americans asked themselves, "How can I get MINE?"
They voted for Obama

If there's ANY example of a group who asked themselves how they could get theirs, it was the highly affluent in this country who both asked and then answered their own question. The answer was campaign contributions which flowed quite freely to politicians who were more than happy to deliver the votes to give the well-heeled the policies they wanted, the tax breaks they requested, the immunity from law suits they sought, the no-bid gov't contracts when they knew they wouldn't have to account for their expenditures in any meaningful way.

It was feeding time inside the beltway, and the lobbyists spread around the campaign contributions along with the pâté and foie gras at parties, and at dinners, and at lavish award ceremonies where Washington insiders got to play ball with decision makers and king makers like Tom DeLay and Jack Abramoff who had connections both up and down the food chain.

Meanwhile, you probably sit in your car and listen to Rush Limbaugh who makes $50 million a year, and you think he gives a shit what you think about anything. He doesn't. He serves a purpose, and that purpose has nothing to do with you or your life. Of that, I can assure you.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Come to think of it, I was born in a generation where you earned your stuff. You never asked for free stuff unless you shed blood sweat and tears for it. Nowadays even the money I slaved for is given freely to someone sitting on their couch. This appalls me to no end. This nation has no backbone anymore. I am only 26 years of age, and I would have rather lived in a time similar to the 1940s and 1950s, when people didn't feel entitled to free stuff, but the to hard day's work. I fear my nation will meet it's great end in my lifetime.

‘Nowadays…”

The preamble of the fearful, ignorant reactionary conservative.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

When you were born there were rightwing nitwits whining about ‘nowadays,’ ‘moral decay,’ a ‘loss of greatness,’ and ‘everyone with his hand out,’ the same as now, the same as 50 years ago.

Pathetic fantasies about an American past that never actually existed to begin with is the hallmark of the reactionary American conservative.

Negged.

And what are you? Someone who lacks the ability of forethought. Someone who has no will of his own. A person who is willingly led by the hand by the elite establishment in his own party. Your fantasy of a liberal utopia is boorish and fantastical with no basis in reality. You are ignorant and blind. You are so entrapped in your own deep seated ideals you think nothing of diverse thought. Or of anyone else. You are a lost and wandering child with no direction in his world.

Since when did a man learn his self worth by being pampered? I am a conservative and proud of it. If any man dares question my merit, he must check his own beforehand.

 

[zeke]

huh? work harder for what? both people in my example earn the same income and make the same money and work just as hard, yet 1 is given favoritism and a lower tax burden than his income equal who doesn't own a home....

Home ownership/buying is among the top tier of things that support our economy the best.
I'm sorry but renting an apartment just doesn't deserve the same tax break

Why? the renter IS THE ONE paying for the property taxes and for the Interest payment to the banks, and then on top of that, does the homeowner get to write off the interest payments on his taxes due also?

and what about the people that were responsible and saved up their money their entire lives so that they could purchase a home with CASH, like Matt and me....WHY SHOULD we pay more in taxes because we were responsible and saved pennies, a little at a time instead of owning that new car every 5 years we kept them for 12 years..... instead of taking that nice vacation we went to the park around the corner....

Yet people like me have to pay more in taxes for the exact same income earned as the guy who had to borrow money for a home....just to make up the difference that the gvt is giving him.....

It's truly not right and just....horty

care4, I am not positive but I think you and I sit on mostly on opposite sides of the isle.
But it is a hopeful experience to see someone who understands that mortgage interest deductions are a "freebie" to those buying a house. 120 billion a year freebie.

Some of these folks act like no one would need a home if they didn't get an interest deduction. No one would buy new appliances new furniture paint a room nothing to improve a home without that interest deduction.

No what I think has been shown by both of us is the hypocrisy practiced by those (including me) who claim that the government HAS to stop with the give aways. I love my interest deduction. I have eight properties. You know I love it.

But just don't take my give aways. Take someone else's.

Not a single person has tried to explain why it is right and just that you be penalized for paying cash for your home. Not one. Hell they won't even admit that the interest deduction IS a give away from the government.

But it was still good reading someone who gets it.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Come to think of it, I was born in a generation where you earned your stuff. You never asked for free stuff unless you shed blood sweat and tears for it. Nowadays even the money I slaved for is given freely to someone sitting on their couch. This appalls me to no end. This nation has no backbone anymore. I am only 26 years of age, and I would have rather lived in a time similar to the 1940s and 1950s, when people didn't feel entitled to free stuff, but the to hard day's work. I fear my nation will meet it's great end in my lifetime.

‘Nowadays…”

The preamble of the fearful, ignorant reactionary conservative.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

When you were born there were rightwing nitwits whining about ‘nowadays,’ ‘moral decay,’ a ‘loss of greatness,’ and ‘everyone with his hand out,’ the same as now, the same as 50 years ago.

Pathetic fantasies about an American past that never actually existed to begin with is the hallmark of the reactionary American conservative.

Negged.

And what are you? Someone who lacks the ability of forethought. Someone who has no will of his own. A person who is willingly led by the hand by the elite establishment in his own party. Your fantasy of a liberal utopia is boorish and fantastical with no basis in reality. You are ignorant and blind. You are so entrapped in your own deep seated ideals you think nothing of diverse thought. Or of anyone else. You are a lost and wandering child with no direction in his world.

Since when did a man learn his self worth by being pampered? I am a conservative and proud of it. If any man dares question my merit, he must check his own beforehand.

Naw.....it is just a paralegal who suffers from delusions of grandeur. Pay it no mind. It works for the law firm of "Winkin, Blinkin and Nod"

 

[LoneLaugher]

Why is it that nutters...when prompted to discuss free stuff....never think of oil and ag subsidies first...and instead zoom in on the pittance that our less fortunate citizens are afforded?

 

[Foxfyre]

huh? work harder for what? both people in my example earn the same income and make the same money and work just as hard, yet 1 is given favoritism and a lower tax burden than his income equal who doesn't own a home....

Home ownership/buying is among the top tier of things that support our economy the best.
I'm sorry but renting an apartment just doesn't deserve the same tax break

Why? the renter IS THE ONE paying for the property taxes and for the Interest payment to the banks, and then on top of that, does the homeowner get to write off the interest payments on his taxes due also?

and what about the people that were responsible and saved up their money their entire lives so that they could purchase a home with CASH, like Matt and me....WHY SHOULD we pay more in taxes because we were responsible and saved pennies, a little at a time instead of owning that new car every 5 years we kept them for 12 years..... instead of taking that nice vacation we went to the park around the corner....

Yet people like me have to pay more in taxes for the exact same income earned as the guy who had to borrow money for a home....just to make up the difference that the gvt is giving him.....

It's truly not right and just....horty

You don't pay more in taxes though, Care, any more than any of us who have paid off our mortgages via financing or who have paid down our loans to the point we don't have enough interest to deduct any more. By your choice to save up and buy outright you saved a huge amount in interest that the rest of us were paying. And that is commendable. But you also had every right to go the route most of us go and choose to buy and pay the interest on the theory that the tax savings and equity growth would offset much or all of the interest. It is a personal choice. But my taking a tax deduction takes absolutely nothing out of your pocket or anybody else's. It is a fair and reasonable method to encourage home building and home ownership, stable neighborhoods, lower crime rates, better schools, and all the other benefits of high home ownership.

The fact that everybody doesn't CHOOSE to utilize a tax advantage does not make a tax policy inequitable.

A tax policy becomes inequitable when it is applied unevenly or when it is offered to some and not all.

 

[Foxfyre]

Why is it that nutters...when prompted to discuss free stuff....never think of oil and ag subsidies first...and instead zoom in on the pittance that our less fortunate citizens are afforded?

Why is it that other nutters are unable to read the posts in a thread and see that the oil and ag subsidies are a direct result of the 'free stuff' mentality?

 

[RandallFlagg]

Home ownership/buying is among the top tier of things that support our economy the best.
I'm sorry but renting an apartment just doesn't deserve the same tax break

Why? the renter IS THE ONE paying for the property taxes and for the Interest payment to the banks, and then on top of that, does the homeowner get to write off the interest payments on his taxes due also?

and what about the people that were responsible and saved up their money their entire lives so that they could purchase a home with CASH, like Matt and me....WHY SHOULD we pay more in taxes because we were responsible and saved pennies, a little at a time instead of owning that new car every 5 years we kept them for 12 years..... instead of taking that nice vacation we went to the park around the corner....

Yet people like me have to pay more in taxes for the exact same income earned as the guy who had to borrow money for a home....just to make up the difference that the gvt is giving him.....

It's truly not right and just....horty

You don't pay more in taxes though, Care, any more than any of us who have paid off our mortgages via financing or who have paid down our loans to the point we don't have enough interest to deduct any more. By your choice to save up and buy outright you saved a huge amount in interest that the rest of us were paying. And that is commendable. But you also had every right to go the route most of us go and choose to buy and pay the interest on the theory that the tax savings and equity growth would offset much or all of the interest. It is a personal choice. But my taking a tax deduction takes absolutely nothing out of your pocket or anybody else's. It is a fair and reasonable method to encourage home building and home ownership, stable neighborhoods, lower crime rates, better schools, and all the other benefits of high home ownership.

The fact that everybody doesn't CHOOSE to utilize a tax advantage does not make a tax policy inequitable.

A tax policy becomes inequitable when it is applied unevenly or when it is offered to some and not all.

And that is the crux of the tax deduction. It was always intended to encourage home purchase. It has done its job over the years - I know that I have taken the interest deduction for longer than I can remember. It is a viable tax deduction, perfectly legal and within the law.

 

[Foxfyre]

Sorry. I would like to say that this has been a great thread.....full of really thoughtful posts and making a real attempt to get at the core of political reality in America.

But, the idea that the people who voted for Obama...except for a very small number of far left wing Marxists......did so in order to procure free stuff is simply not substantiated.

This last post should have been your first, Fox......it would have saved me a good amount of time. Minimum wage laws, AA, amnesty and Medicare are FREE STUFF, you say.

Did Obama give ANY of that away? At all?


Then the OP just equated the American electorate to a bunch of kids looking for ice cream. How stupid.

Finally......TK just claimed want to be living in the 40's or 50's.....so he could value hard work. This UNEMPLOYED 26 year old fantasy gamer longs for the life of Opie Griffith or Beaver Cleaver. Too fucking much.

Whatever you receive that somebody else is required to pay for is 'free stuff'. It doesn't matter one whit what it is. If you get it without direct cost to you and somebody else gets the bill, it is 'free stuff' so far as you are concerned.

So don't get all caught up in the PC garbage and victimization mantra of the left that attempts to demonize those who know the difference between those who pay for what they get and those who pay for what others have. If you got it and somebody else got the bill for it, it is free stuff to you no matter how compassionate or noble or virtuous or important we view that free stuff to be.