The Second Proof of God

[edthecynic]

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed therefore no beginning or end, you may have heard of it, the PROVEN First Law of Thermodynamics.

We have been through this before.

Yes, you always attempt to disprove the proven with the unproven, and you fail every time.
You need a repeatable experiment to disprove what has been proven by a repeatable experiment.

No offense, Ed, you don't know jack shit about science.

I know that the fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed was proven with a repeatable experiment by James Prescott Joule, you might have a surge protector rated in Joules named after him in honor of his great accomplishment, and I know you have no repeatable experiment contradicting it.

And you should know that matter and energy will eventually reach thermal equilibrium which should tell you that it is not possible for matter to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium. Which all mean that space and time was created 14 billion years ago.

But let's play it out your way. How long has matter and energy existed?

The third Law of Thermodynamics says thermal equilibrium is impossible, but you knew that already.
And since energy can neither be created nor destroyed it has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity.

 

[Montrovant]

We have been through this before.

Yes, you always attempt to disprove the proven with the unproven, and you fail every time.
You need a repeatable experiment to disprove what has been proven by a repeatable experiment.

No offense, Ed, you don't know jack shit about science.

I know that the fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed was proven with a repeatable experiment by James Prescott Joule, you might have a surge protector rated in Joules named after him in honor of his great accomplishment, and I know you have no repeatable experiment contradicting it.

And you should know that matter and energy will eventually reach thermal equilibrium which should tell you that it is not possible for matter to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium. Which all mean that space and time was created 14 billion years ago.

But let's play it out your way. How long has matter and energy existed?

The third Law of Thermodynamics says thermal equilibrium is impossible, but you knew that already.
And since energy can neither be created nor destroyed it has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity.

Would that be true if, as I have sometimes read, the physical laws our universe operates under did not exist prior to the Big Bang? (Assuming using the term "prior to" makes sense when time itself may not have existed)

 

[OnePercenter]

God can't be logically disproven that's the issue.

it doesn't work that way.

Sure it does. Logic takes two courses, proof that can't be disproven.

 

[OnePercenter]

God can't be logically disproven that's the issue.

That would be the falsifiability principle.

So it would appear that it takes faith to believe in God and faith not to believe in God.

God can't be logical disproof. The theory of falsifiability says so.

 

[ding]

We have been through this before.

Yes, you always attempt to disprove the proven with the unproven, and you fail every time.
You need a repeatable experiment to disprove what has been proven by a repeatable experiment.

No offense, Ed, you don't know jack shit about science.

I know that the fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed was proven with a repeatable experiment by James Prescott Joule, you might have a surge protector rated in Joules named after him in honor of his great accomplishment, and I know you have no repeatable experiment contradicting it.

And you should know that matter and energy will eventually reach thermal equilibrium which should tell you that it is not possible for matter to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium. Which all mean that space and time was created 14 billion years ago.

But let's play it out your way. How long has matter and energy existed?

The third Law of Thermodynamics says thermal equilibrium is impossible, but you knew that already.
And since energy can neither be created nor destroyed it has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity.

Thermal equilibrium doesn't mean T = 0, Einstein.

 

[ding]

Yes, you always attempt to disprove the proven with the unproven, and you fail every time.
You need a repeatable experiment to disprove what has been proven by a repeatable experiment.

No offense, Ed, you don't know jack shit about science.

I know that the fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed was proven with a repeatable experiment by James Prescott Joule, you might have a surge protector rated in Joules named after him in honor of his great accomplishment, and I know you have no repeatable experiment contradicting it.

And you should know that matter and energy will eventually reach thermal equilibrium which should tell you that it is not possible for matter to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium. Which all mean that space and time was created 14 billion years ago.

But let's play it out your way. How long has matter and energy existed?

The third Law of Thermodynamics says thermal equilibrium is impossible, but you knew that already.
And since energy can neither be created nor destroyed it has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity.

Would that be true if, as I have sometimes read, the physical laws our universe operates under did not exist prior to the Big Bang? (Assuming using the term "prior to" makes sense when time itself may not have existed)

You read wrong. The creation of space and time followed laws.

What do you think would have made the laws change?

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

We have been through this before.

Yes, you always attempt to disprove the proven with the unproven, and you fail every time.
You need a repeatable experiment to disprove what has been proven by a repeatable experiment.

No offense, Ed, you don't know jack shit about science.

I know that the fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed was proven with a repeatable experiment by James Prescott Joule, you might have a surge protector rated in Joules named after him in honor of his great accomplishment, and I know you have no repeatable experiment contradicting it.

And you should know that matter and energy will eventually reach thermal equilibrium which should tell you that it is not possible for matter to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium. Which all mean that space and time was created 14 billion years ago.

But let's play it out your way. How long has matter and energy existed?

The third Law of Thermodynamics says thermal equilibrium is impossible, but you knew that already.
And since energy can neither be created nor destroyed it has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity.

You presume this Universe is all encompassing of all existence.

The Universe is a closed system. 1st LT states that the energy of a closed system must remain constant.

It states energy cannot increase nor decrease without interference from outside. It does not preclude the potential of an outside force acting upon it.

 

[undertherqadar]

Logic isn't for everyone.

certainly not religious nutters

 

[edthecynic]

Yes, you always attempt to disprove the proven with the unproven, and you fail every time.
You need a repeatable experiment to disprove what has been proven by a repeatable experiment.

No offense, Ed, you don't know jack shit about science.

I know that the fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed was proven with a repeatable experiment by James Prescott Joule, you might have a surge protector rated in Joules named after him in honor of his great accomplishment, and I know you have no repeatable experiment contradicting it.

And you should know that matter and energy will eventually reach thermal equilibrium which should tell you that it is not possible for matter to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium. Which all mean that space and time was created 14 billion years ago.

But let's play it out your way. How long has matter and energy existed?

The third Law of Thermodynamics says thermal equilibrium is impossible, but you knew that already.
And since energy can neither be created nor destroyed it has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity.

Thermal equilibrium doesn't mean T = 0, Einstein.

Thermal equilibrium is the temperature where all motion stops and no work can be done. It doesn't exist as a universal law.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes

1. We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world.
   
   
2. Nothing exists prior to itself.
   
   
3. Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself.
   
   
4. If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results (the effect).
   
   
5. Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists.
   
   
6. If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.
   
   
7. That is plainly false (i.e., there are things existing now that came about through efficient causes).
   
   
8. Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past.
   
   
9. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

This fails as an appeal to ignorance fallacy.

Indeed, ‘god’ does exist as a creation of man, a contrivance, a philosophy, a concept – but there is no ‘god’ as perceived by theists, no extraterrestrial omnipotent deity that hears prayers or intercedes on the behalf of adherents.

 

[edthecynic]

Yes, you always attempt to disprove the proven with the unproven, and you fail every time.
You need a repeatable experiment to disprove what has been proven by a repeatable experiment.

No offense, Ed, you don't know jack shit about science.

I know that the fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed was proven with a repeatable experiment by James Prescott Joule, you might have a surge protector rated in Joules named after him in honor of his great accomplishment, and I know you have no repeatable experiment contradicting it.

And you should know that matter and energy will eventually reach thermal equilibrium which should tell you that it is not possible for matter to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium. Which all mean that space and time was created 14 billion years ago.

But let's play it out your way. How long has matter and energy existed?

The third Law of Thermodynamics says thermal equilibrium is impossible, but you knew that already.
And since energy can neither be created nor destroyed it has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity.

You presume this Universe is all encompassing of all existence.

The Universe is a closed system. 1st LT states that the energy of a closed system must remain constant.

It states energy cannot increase nor decrease without interference from outside. It does not preclude the potential of an outside force acting upon it.

You are confusing the FLoT with the SLot.

 

[ding]

Yes, you always attempt to disprove the proven with the unproven, and you fail every time.
You need a repeatable experiment to disprove what has been proven by a repeatable experiment.

No offense, Ed, you don't know jack shit about science.

I know that the fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed was proven with a repeatable experiment by James Prescott Joule, you might have a surge protector rated in Joules named after him in honor of his great accomplishment, and I know you have no repeatable experiment contradicting it.

And you should know that matter and energy will eventually reach thermal equilibrium which should tell you that it is not possible for matter to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium. Which all mean that space and time was created 14 billion years ago.

But let's play it out your way. How long has matter and energy existed?

The third Law of Thermodynamics says thermal equilibrium is impossible, but you knew that already.
And since energy can neither be created nor destroyed it has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity.

You presume this Universe is all encompassing of all existence.

The Universe is a closed system. 1st LT states that the energy of a closed system must remain constant.

It states energy cannot increase nor decrease without interference from outside. It does not preclude the potential of an outside force acting upon it.

Agreed, but he thinks thermal equilibrium means that the temperature of everything is absolute zero.

There are many different ways of discussing entropy. The way to understand that it is impossible for matter and energy to exist forever even if there is an infinite cycle of big bangs and big crunches is that for every matter to energy or energy to matter exchange there is a loss of usable energy to the system. So as time approaches infinity, no matter what the universe does, the universe will reach thermal equilibrium. Unless of course, energy was added from outside the system, as you point out.

The total energy wouldn't change, but the usable energy would approach zero.

 

[ding]

No offense, Ed, you don't know jack shit about science.

I know that the fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed was proven with a repeatable experiment by James Prescott Joule, you might have a surge protector rated in Joules named after him in honor of his great accomplishment, and I know you have no repeatable experiment contradicting it.

And you should know that matter and energy will eventually reach thermal equilibrium which should tell you that it is not possible for matter to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium. Which all mean that space and time was created 14 billion years ago.

But let's play it out your way. How long has matter and energy existed?

The third Law of Thermodynamics says thermal equilibrium is impossible, but you knew that already.
And since energy can neither be created nor destroyed it has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity.

Thermal equilibrium doesn't mean T = 0, Einstein.

Thermal equilibrium is the temperature where all motion stops and no work can be done. It doesn't exist as a universal law.

For every matter to energy or energy to matter exchange, there is a loss of usable energy.

Do yo understand what this means?

 

[ding]

No offense, Ed, you don't know jack shit about science.

I know that the fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed was proven with a repeatable experiment by James Prescott Joule, you might have a surge protector rated in Joules named after him in honor of his great accomplishment, and I know you have no repeatable experiment contradicting it.

And you should know that matter and energy will eventually reach thermal equilibrium which should tell you that it is not possible for matter to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium. Which all mean that space and time was created 14 billion years ago.

But let's play it out your way. How long has matter and energy existed?

The third Law of Thermodynamics says thermal equilibrium is impossible, but you knew that already.
And since energy can neither be created nor destroyed it has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity.

You presume this Universe is all encompassing of all existence.

The Universe is a closed system. 1st LT states that the energy of a closed system must remain constant.

It states energy cannot increase nor decrease without interference from outside. It does not preclude the potential of an outside force acting upon it.

You are confusing the FLoT with the SLot.

No. He's not.

You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

 

[ding]

The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes

1. We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world.
   
   
2. Nothing exists prior to itself.
   
   
3. Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself.
   
   
4. If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results (the effect).
   
   
5. Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists.
   
   
6. If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.
   
   
7. That is plainly false (i.e., there are things existing now that came about through efficient causes).
   
   
8. Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past.
   
   
9. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

This fails as an appeal to ignorance fallacy.

Indeed, ‘god’ does exist as a creation of man, a contrivance, a philosophy, a concept – but there is no ‘god’ as perceived by theists, no extraterrestrial omnipotent deity that hears prayers or intercedes on the behalf of adherents.

No. It is a logical proof.

You are trying to discuss who and what God is when the debate is on does he logically exist.

Can you address Aquinas' proof or not?

 

[toobfreak]

The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes

1. We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world.
   
   
2. Nothing exists prior to itself.
   
   
3. Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself.
   
   
4. If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results (the effect).
   
   
5. Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists.
   
   
6. If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.
   
   
7. That is plainly false (i.e., there are things existing now that came about through efficient causes).
   
   
8. Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past.
   
   
9. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

Fine intellectual reasoning but none of that proves the nature of that first efficient cause whether it was personal (intelligent and conscious) or impersonal (itself a mere object, happening or event). The problem with trying to reason the nature of God is that except through Jnanic Yoga, one cannot approach God through the mind because the mind and reason are but a tiny subset of the creation! The only way to know God in his Infinite for sure is through dint of direct experience which God himself deems appropriate for you, which is why those which have experienced God are without any doubt while those skeptical of God are forever beyond being convinced. God reveals himself only to those ready to know Him.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

No offense, Ed, you don't know jack shit about science.

I know that the fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed was proven with a repeatable experiment by James Prescott Joule, you might have a surge protector rated in Joules named after him in honor of his great accomplishment, and I know you have no repeatable experiment contradicting it.

And you should know that matter and energy will eventually reach thermal equilibrium which should tell you that it is not possible for matter to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium. Which all mean that space and time was created 14 billion years ago.

But let's play it out your way. How long has matter and energy existed?

The third Law of Thermodynamics says thermal equilibrium is impossible, but you knew that already.
And since energy can neither be created nor destroyed it has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity.

You presume this Universe is all encompassing of all existence.

The Universe is a closed system. 1st LT states that the energy of a closed system must remain constant.

It states energy cannot increase nor decrease without interference from outside. It does not preclude the potential of an outside force acting upon it.

You are confusing the FLoT with the SLot.

I never confuse the SLot.

 

[Montrovant]

No offense, Ed, you don't know jack shit about science.

I know that the fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed was proven with a repeatable experiment by James Prescott Joule, you might have a surge protector rated in Joules named after him in honor of his great accomplishment, and I know you have no repeatable experiment contradicting it.

And you should know that matter and energy will eventually reach thermal equilibrium which should tell you that it is not possible for matter to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium. Which all mean that space and time was created 14 billion years ago.

But let's play it out your way. How long has matter and energy existed?

The third Law of Thermodynamics says thermal equilibrium is impossible, but you knew that already.
And since energy can neither be created nor destroyed it has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity.

Would that be true if, as I have sometimes read, the physical laws our universe operates under did not exist prior to the Big Bang? (Assuming using the term "prior to" makes sense when time itself may not have existed)

You read wrong. The creation of space and time followed laws.

What do you think would have made the laws change?

Well, there is this from Stephen Hawking: "The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down." That seems to indicate that 'before' the Big Bang, at least some of the laws of physics did not apply. That only makes sense if space and time do not exist. The Beginning of TIme

 

[bgrouse]

Logic isn't for everyone.

You proved that with your first post, that's for sure!

I get that a lot from militant atheists.

Like someone else said, it's nothing more than a feeble-minded fool's attempt to explain something he doesn't know.

Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

First of all, not "everyone gives the name of God." You and a bunch of other fools do.

Secondly, how is that any different from I don't know, so God? If God is the first cause, then what is the cause of God? In trying to answer the question, you make shit up (God), and when it's over, you still haven't answered anything.

 

[ding]

I know that the fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed was proven with a repeatable experiment by James Prescott Joule, you might have a surge protector rated in Joules named after him in honor of his great accomplishment, and I know you have no repeatable experiment contradicting it.

And you should know that matter and energy will eventually reach thermal equilibrium which should tell you that it is not possible for matter to exist forever without reaching thermal equilibrium. Which all mean that space and time was created 14 billion years ago.

But let's play it out your way. How long has matter and energy existed?

The third Law of Thermodynamics says thermal equilibrium is impossible, but you knew that already.
And since energy can neither be created nor destroyed it has always existed and will always exist in the same total quantity.

Would that be true if, as I have sometimes read, the physical laws our universe operates under did not exist prior to the Big Bang? (Assuming using the term "prior to" makes sense when time itself may not have existed)

You read wrong. The creation of space and time followed laws.

What do you think would have made the laws change?

Well, there is this from Stephen Hawking: "The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down." That seems to indicate that 'before' the Big Bang, at least some of the laws of physics did not apply. That only makes sense if space and time do not exist. The Beginning of TIme

The equations to Friedman's solution to Einstein's GToR yield infinities. They are equations, not laws. But I do find it appropriate that they yield infinity as that is the solution to the first cause.

You do realize that I already explained to you inflation theory which is what describes what happened right before Friedman's solution to Einstein's GToR yield infinities, right?

It was a quantum tunneling event which created space and time and did so while adhering to quantum laws and conservation laws. The laws were in place before space and time existed.

According to Dr. Leon Lederman, American experimental physicist and Nobel Laureate and Director Emeritus of Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory:

"In the very beginning, there was a void, a curious form of vacuum, a nothingness containing no space, no time, no matter, no light, no sound. Yet the laws of nature were in place and this curious vacuum held potential."