"The Trouble with Rand Paul"

[thanatos144]

Congratulations on showing that Lew Rockwell is a true Libertarian. All those links are from his site.

One writer/pundit true believer does not equal the massive astroturfed movement we saw erupt only when we elected our first Black POTUS.

All from one website yes, but I detect at least four different libertarian authors there. Regardless, your assertion that libertarians in general did not oppose Bush is ridiculous.

As for the "astroturfed movement" when Obama became President, you don't have to tell me. It was natural that partisans would suddenly come out of the woodwork to oppose the new President, just as the same thing happened to Bush when he was elected.

Oh, and as for your assertions that Obama doesn't authorize torture, you're wrong. It's called rendition, and Obama has been allowing it since he became President.

Rendition is sending people to torture-friendly countries.

That is not the same as torture at the hands of Americans.

A minor distinction, if you are the one being tortured, but it complies with U.S. law, at least.

Personally, I think it's more effective to kill them with kindness.

Am I suppose to shed tears about terrorist who would rape and kill my wife and daughter and murder me and my son?????? Not fucking going to happen.

 

[dblack]

Am I suppose to shed tears about terrorist who would rape and kill my wife and daughter and murder me and my son?????? Not fucking going to happen.

No. You're supposed to have the sense to realize that anyone can get caught up in these unchecked powers - ours sons and daughters, for example. Due process is about protecting all of us from overreaching government.

 

[thanatos144]

Am I suppose to shed tears about terrorist who would rape and kill my wife and daughter and murder me and my son?????? Not fucking going to happen.

No. You're supposed to have the sense to realize that anyone can get caught up in these unchecked powers - ours sons and daughters, for example. Due process is about protecting all of us from overreaching government.

They are not Americans so no I dont.

 

[dblack]

Am I suppose to shed tears about terrorist who would rape and kill my wife and daughter and murder me and my son?????? Not fucking going to happen.

No. You're supposed to have the sense to realize that anyone can get caught up in these unchecked powers - ours sons and daughters, for example. Due process is about protecting all of us from overreaching government.

They are not Americans so no I dont.

Who are "not Americans"? The fact of the matter is, NDAA, and the broad provisions of the PATRIOT act, are dangerous to all of us. Under current law any of us can declared 'enemy combatants' and lost to the gulag system.

Even if the unconstitutional powers were limited to non-Americans (which they're not), are you really suggesting non-Americans have no rights to due process? That we can just grab foreigners at our convenience and torture them indefinitely? Are you cool with other nations adopting the same attitude towards Americans overseas? Do you have any clue how myopic and stupid that sounds?

 

[uscitizen]

And now a Democratic POTUS assassinates American citizens and says that due process guaranteed by the Constitution is not the same thing as "judicial process."

Don't bring that weak shit, Kevin. That's just deflection from what I pointed out about the actions and policies of Bush and the Republican Congress. Yes, Obama has continued a lot of those policies. Some, like GTMO, he was forced to continue - again, by the Republicans in Congress. Some, like torture, he has stopped.

As for the American-born terrorist, you could argue that he was wrongly targeted for assassination. Or you could argue that anyone who commits treason and incites violence against America has abdicated his rights to due process. But that's one singular event. Where was this Tea Party when Bush was regularly violating the liberties that Libertarians claim to love? I don't remember Libertarians or teabaggers holding rallies to protest 'free speech zones' during the 2004 GOP convention. Do you? I mean, think about that: a small zone set up where you can protest and exercise your Constitutional rights. In America? And not a PEEP from the Libertarians or the future teabaggers - because it was happening to Democrats and Liberals. So they didn't give a shit.

You can't be a Constitutionalist for just the people you agree with politically.

How is it weak or a deflection? You pointed out that Bush did horrible things, and I pointed out that Obama has taken those horrible Bush policies and expanded them. That's only weak or a deflection to a partisan.

As for whether someone who commits "treason and incites violence against America has abdicated his rights to due process," that merely begs the question. How do we decide who has committed treason or whether they've actually incited violence against America? The President can't unilaterally make that decision, and that's why we have due process in the first place.

As for libertarians not speaking out against Bush, that's a load of crap.

George W. Bush: War Criminal in Chief by Laurence M. Vance
In Seeking War, George W. Bush Held True to Form by Robert Higgs
Sean Hannity Ignores Eight Years of George W. Bush « LewRockwell.com Blog
Bush's War on the Bill of Rights by Anthony Gregory
Baby Bush: The Worst President in History? by Doug Casey

3 of those links were done after Bush was in 8 years...

 

[thanatos144]

No. You're supposed to have the sense to realize that anyone can get caught up in these unchecked powers - ours sons and daughters, for example. Due process is about protecting all of us from overreaching government.

They are not Americans so no I dont.

Who are "not Americans"? The fact of the matter is, NDAA, and the broad provisions of the PATRIOT act, are dangerous to all of us. Under current law any of us can declared 'enemy combatants' and lost to the gulag system.

Even if the unconstitutional powers were limited to non-Americans (which they're not), are you really suggesting non-Americans have no rights to due process? That we can just grab foreigners at our convenience and torture them indefinitely? Are you cool with other nations adopting the same attitude towards Americans overseas? Do you have any clue how myopic and stupid that sounds?

What Americans are being held without trial????????? What Americans are the US government is torturing???? Explain to me again how Taping the person not the phone is you freedom being taken away???? They still need a warrant.

Dont like the bill and think it gives the Government to much power? Thats fine I agree with you...Yet talking like a fucking wake job tinfoil hat wearing freak with conspiracy theories I will not agree. I like the truth not lies.

 

[Dot Com]

I'm STILL trying to figure out just what he was thinking?

Guest Post: The Trouble with Rand Paul | ZeroHedge

Rand Paul just endorsed a man who is deeply hostile to human liberty.

Perhaps that’s Rand’s idea of playing politics? Come to the table, strike a deal, get what you can. Trouble is, it’s tough striking a good deal when the guy on the other side of the table believes that the government should be allowed to claim — without having to produce any evidence whatsoever — that certain people are terrorists, and therefore should be detained indefinitely without any kind of due process.

That’s textbook tyranny.

And the money shot:

But Mitt Romney’s stances on these issues seem much, much, much closer to Barack Obama than they do to Ron Paul. In fact, he might as well have endorsed Obama for President. And the Ron Paul supporters are noticing: Rand has probably burnt most bridges to his Father’s supporters now

agreed. he ran on the teaparty/libertarian ticket. If he endorses Mitt then he's a sell-out.

 

[dblack]

What Americans are being held without trial????????? What Americans are the US government is torturing???? Explain to me again how Taping the person not the phone is you freedom being taken away???? They still need a warrant.

No, they don't. This, and many other similar protections have been watered down or outright done away with. And all with the support of neo-con, reactionary idiots such as yourself.

Yet talking like a fucking wake job tinfoil hat wearing freak with conspiracy theories I will not agree. I like the truth not lies.

You live in a blur of fear and lies. Sad to say, I don't think you'll see beyond that until it's too late.

 

[thanatos144]

What Americans are being held without trial????????? What Americans are the US government is torturing???? Explain to me again how Taping the person not the phone is you freedom being taken away???? They still need a warrant.

No, they don't. This, and many other similar protections have been watered down or outright done away with. And all with the support of neo-con, reactionary idiots such as yourself.

Yet talking like a fucking wake job tinfoil hat wearing freak with conspiracy theories I will not agree. I like the truth not lies.

You live in a blur of fear and lies. Sad to say, I don't think you'll see beyond that until it's too late.

Aww look at the little liberaltarian call me a noecon for speaking the truth. Put down the bong and grow up.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

The whole movement ron paul built is being sold down the river of principles for the tugboat of party establishment line-tow for Rand's political career. Remember, he is not ron paul., He did not get into politics to inject ideas. He's a career politician.

We got sold out. Color me shocked.

 

[dblack]

Aww look at the little liberaltarian call me a noecon for speaking the truth. Put down the bong and grow up.

Ahhh .. another NARCO-AVENGER!!!!... You and rabbi should get uniforms or something.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Congratulations on showing that Lew Rockwell is a true Libertarian. All those links are from his site.

One writer/pundit true believer does not equal the massive astroturfed movement we saw erupt only when we elected our first Black POTUS.

All from one website yes, but I detect at least four different libertarian authors there. Regardless, your assertion that libertarians in general did not oppose Bush is ridiculous.

As for the "astroturfed movement" when Obama became President, you don't have to tell me. It was natural that partisans would suddenly come out of the woodwork to oppose the new President, just as the same thing happened to Bush when he was elected.

Oh, and as for your assertions that Obama doesn't authorize torture, you're wrong. It's called rendition, and Obama has been allowing it since he became President.

Rendition is sending people to torture-friendly countries.

That is not the same as torture at the hands of Americans.

A minor distinction, if you are the one being tortured, but it complies with U.S. law, at least.

Personally, I think it's more effective to kill them with kindness.

Who cares if it complies with U.S. law? Obama said he was going to end torture, and yet he has no problem sending people to be tortured by foreign countries who are probably far more ruthless about it than Bush's people ever were.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Any one who knows me knows I hate utopian bullshit on both sides and that definitely includes libertarianism. Nothing wrong with striving to be a better country but to watch it burn cause you cant stand not having legal pot or abortion on demand to me is fucking insane. What I think Rand is doing is something His father doesn't have the backbone for. He is sucking it up and endorsing the candidate of his party cause he KNOWS he is better then the president. At a certain point you need to ask yourself if your going to be a liberal bitch and throw a tantrum cause you didn't get your way or are you going to put the country forward and work harder to get more your views accomplished other ways.....You want to help put a leash on Romney if and when he wins???????Elect a better congress cause right now you ether have Obama or Romney as president and only a fucking madman votes for Obama or doesn't vote at all.

I am sure you like to believe there is not wasted votes but Perot taught us differently.

So your definition of "having backbone" is giving in and doing exactly what the Republican establishment wants you to do, despite your actual principles? That would be the opposite of my definition of having backbone, but to each his own.

 

[thanatos144]

Aww look at the little liberaltarian call me a noecon for speaking the truth. Put down the bong and grow up.

Ahhh .. another NARCO-AVENGER!!!!... You and rabbi should get uniforms or something.

Is that suppose to make sense? Or is it only something you understand when you are stupid high on something?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Don't bring that weak shit, Kevin. That's just deflection from what I pointed out about the actions and policies of Bush and the Republican Congress. Yes, Obama has continued a lot of those policies. Some, like GTMO, he was forced to continue - again, by the Republicans in Congress. Some, like torture, he has stopped.

As for the American-born terrorist, you could argue that he was wrongly targeted for assassination. Or you could argue that anyone who commits treason and incites violence against America has abdicated his rights to due process. But that's one singular event. Where was this Tea Party when Bush was regularly violating the liberties that Libertarians claim to love? I don't remember Libertarians or teabaggers holding rallies to protest 'free speech zones' during the 2004 GOP convention. Do you? I mean, think about that: a small zone set up where you can protest and exercise your Constitutional rights. In America? And not a PEEP from the Libertarians or the future teabaggers - because it was happening to Democrats and Liberals. So they didn't give a shit.

You can't be a Constitutionalist for just the people you agree with politically.

How is it weak or a deflection? You pointed out that Bush did horrible things, and I pointed out that Obama has taken those horrible Bush policies and expanded them. That's only weak or a deflection to a partisan.

As for whether someone who commits "treason and incites violence against America has abdicated his rights to due process," that merely begs the question. How do we decide who has committed treason or whether they've actually incited violence against America? The President can't unilaterally make that decision, and that's why we have due process in the first place.

As for libertarians not speaking out against Bush, that's a load of crap.

George W. Bush: War Criminal in Chief by Laurence M. Vance
In Seeking War, George W. Bush Held True to Form by Robert Higgs
Sean Hannity Ignores Eight Years of George W. Bush « LewRockwell.com Blog
Bush's War on the Bill of Rights by Anthony Gregory
Baby Bush: The Worst President in History? by Doug Casey

3 of those links were done after Bush was in 8 years...

I think you know better than to assume that libertarians weren't criticizing Bush during his Presidency.

 

[thanatos144]

Any one who knows me knows I hate utopian bullshit on both sides and that definitely includes libertarianism. Nothing wrong with striving to be a better country but to watch it burn cause you cant stand not having legal pot or abortion on demand to me is fucking insane. What I think Rand is doing is something His father doesn't have the backbone for. He is sucking it up and endorsing the candidate of his party cause he KNOWS he is better then the president. At a certain point you need to ask yourself if your going to be a liberal bitch and throw a tantrum cause you didn't get your way or are you going to put the country forward and work harder to get more your views accomplished other ways.....You want to help put a leash on Romney if and when he wins???????Elect a better congress cause right now you ether have Obama or Romney as president and only a fucking madman votes for Obama or doesn't vote at all.

I am sure you like to believe there is not wasted votes but Perot taught us differently.

So your definition of "having backbone" is giving in and doing exactly what the Republican establishment wants you to do, despite your actual principles? That would be the opposite of my definition of having backbone, but to each his own.

No it means acting like adult and making adult decisions.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Any one who knows me knows I hate utopian bullshit on both sides and that definitely includes libertarianism. Nothing wrong with striving to be a better country but to watch it burn cause you cant stand not having legal pot or abortion on demand to me is fucking insane. What I think Rand is doing is something His father doesn't have the backbone for. He is sucking it up and endorsing the candidate of his party cause he KNOWS he is better then the president. At a certain point you need to ask yourself if your going to be a liberal bitch and throw a tantrum cause you didn't get your way or are you going to put the country forward and work harder to get more your views accomplished other ways.....You want to help put a leash on Romney if and when he wins???????Elect a better congress cause right now you ether have Obama or Romney as president and only a fucking madman votes for Obama or doesn't vote at all.

I am sure you like to believe there is not wasted votes but Perot taught us differently.

So your definition of "having backbone" is giving in and doing exactly what the Republican establishment wants you to do, despite your actual principles? That would be the opposite of my definition of having backbone, but to each his own.

No it means acting like adult and making adult decisions.

How fortunate for you that acting like an adult so conveniently fits in with your political ideology.

 

[thanatos144]

So your definition of "having backbone" is giving in and doing exactly what the Republican establishment wants you to do, despite your actual principles? That would be the opposite of my definition of having backbone, but to each his own.

No it means acting like adult and making adult decisions.

How fortunate for you that acting like an adult so conveniently fits in with your political ideology.

My political ideology is called realism. I work with what I have I don't sit there with a thumb up my ass wish for things to be different. You want to know the true difference between conservatives and libertarians???? It is not pot cause most dont care ...No it is conservatives deal with reality and libertarians deal in philosophy . Conservatives know there is no utopia. Libertarians think there is.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Call Alex Jones a nut job all you want, but in this video he is spot on with what Rand Paul did.
First three minutes
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNsVMvSna4]Rand Paul Eyes 2016: Admits Sucking Up to Neocon Warhawks! - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

No it means acting like adult and making adult decisions.

How fortunate for you that acting like an adult so conveniently fits in with your political ideology.

My political ideology is called realism. I work with what I have I don't sit there with a thumb up my ass wish for things to be different. You want to know the true difference between conservatives and libertarians???? It is not pot cause most dont care ...No it is conservatives deal with reality and libertarians deal in philosophy . Conservatives know there is no utopia. Libertarians think there is.

I'm sure that's true, in your mind.