The Truth about Mormons

[Avatar4321]

If not doctrine, the policy was to keep the African (American) from the priesthood because of the color of his skin.

The church authorities deal with this as the do with the history of polygamy. They will ignore if it possible. However, if they are asked, they will confirm both were taught at one time.

Which is blatantly untrue because it was a matter of lineage. How else do you explain the times when people with dark skin recieved the priesthood while those with light skin were banned? It was always a matter of lineage, not color.

Which is: ignore or admit today, or the church's history of its leaders and their words?

That you don't like it means nothing, Avatar4321? Call your priesthood file leader and take it up the chain of command until you get a definitive answer, which, if you want to know, is going to agree with what I have written.

Doctrine changes in all organizations from time to time.

There is nothing for me to dislike. The priesthood ban was in regards to lineage and not skin color. Those with dark skin outside the lineage that was banned, were ordained to the priesthood. Those with light skin inside the lineage that was banned were prohibited from recieving the priesthood.

In fact, one of the many reasons that caused President Kimball and the Twelve to Petition the Lord on the matter was that they were Building a Temple in Brazil and as the members were doing genealogy, they were finding out that they had different lineages than they realized. It was creating confusion.

Another is that there were large congregations in Africa who were petitioning the Church to send representatives to baptize them and they couldn't until they had priesthood there in significant numbers to oversee the converts.

The third of course was the Prophesy that all would one day recieve the blessings.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Then you agree the doctrine changed.

 

[Listening]

No, not at all. I'm convinced (faith?) that what you're describing is a personal experience, quite a profound one at that.

Perhaps it's the faith in Jesus Christ part that is my problem.

I've thought for some time that if Christianity (capital C, meaning that Christ was the son of God who died for our sins) was correct, then Mormonism is most likely correct as well.

Mormonism teaches that there was an apostasy and a restoration. Looking at the history of Christianity, it is undeniable that there was an apostasy. The question is whether there was really anything to restore.

The Old Testament is full of stories that have to be allegorical tales, along with nonsense and laws that end in putting people to death for minor transgressions. The New Testament is full of stories that were written down decades after the crucifixion of Christ. How many of those stories are actual accounts?

If we read stories today about an itinerant preacher claiming divinity and having done miracles, but those stories were third and fourth hand and not even written down for years after the fact, who would believe them?

Why is it so easy to believe tales of similar things that happened long ago, but no one would believe such stories today?

I don't know what the truth is. I'm not convinced that anyone else does either, even though quite a few people have told me that they know that Jesus lives. I'm convinced that they think that they know, but have they done a good job of convincing themselves over the years?

I guess I have more of an empirical proof sort of mind, as opposed to a basing belief in feelings.

I would suggest, if you still have your copy of the Book Of Morom going to Alma Chapter 32 where there is a very specific discussion of faith.

The chapter, consistent with our doctrine teaches that all principles start out as small pieces of who or what we are and grow as we invest in trying them and learning more about how they work.

I would also recommend searching "The Challenge To Become", a talk given in 2000 by Elder Dallin H. Oaks where he discusses the fact that we are here to become something, not just know something. He discusses the extension of testimony into actual conversion. It pulls several examples from the New Testament.

The development of faith is very systematic and I can tell you it has worked for me. I am a scientist, an engineer, and a skeptic.

But I have a strong conviction as to the principles I have been taught. When I put into practice the things I am taught, the associated promiese always come true. I don't always do what I should...but when I do....it is incredible.

I recently told a good friend of mine (ex LDS) that if you handed me a videotape from the early 1800's where Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were laughing and telling us what a fraud they had perpetrated on us.....I'd still be in church the following Sunday.

My friend almost shrieked at me "How can you say that ????"

My response was that I don't rely on Jospeh or Brigham for my knowledge. If they meant to pull a fast one somehow, by some miracle against the odds, they got it right....because it works for me. And I have "proved" to myself (and I keep doing so even on the same points) over and over again....as outlined in Alma 32. From their (J.S./B.Y.) teachings through our current (or near current....search "Beware Of Pride" by Ezra Taft Benson and see if that does not have universal application) leaders, they don't ask us to do crazy stuff. They lay out the framework that says humanity (especially in the form of family) is the most important thing we have on this earth and that developing that humanity amidst all humanity is the most important thing we can do (and that is sometimes tough for engineers....numbers don't have emotions).

In the church, we all progress at our own unique rate. Our job is to support each other as we struggle through.

I truly appreciate our general authorities.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Listening, I congratulate you on the good you find in your faith. I have many LDS and non-LDS Mormon friends. A friend of mine says she finds her faith in the BoM not in JS. She said it was in JS, you would have left the church long time gone.

 

[Listening]

You don't think that the doctrine that black men couldn't hold the priesthood because they had been less valiant in the war in Heaven, and so had to settle for coming to Earth in a black body could qualify, in the mind of a non member black man mind you, as "having a problem with blacks"

I can never recall a lesson or a discussion where black people were talked about as being anything different from us. The issues with the Priesthood were something I didn't need to worry about. This includes some time in the church before 1978. There was some backlash (the University of Wyoming football program incident comes to mind). But, it never was a big deal. In contrast, when I moved high schools from Scottsdale, Arizona to Cottonwood, Arizona.....going from a city to more of a rural type of environment, I was appalled at the frequent use of the "N" word and the open disdain for blacks by the population in general....most of them being catholics and baptists (I should also point out that over 30% of the young women in that class left school pregnant out of wedlock by the time we had graduated....none of them LDS....those crazy mormons).

I can recall, however, what a huge stink was made about the church's stand on the ERA. There were protests within the church and some excommunications due from being openly critical of church leadership. That one seem to have a whole lot more fire to it than anything related to restricted priesthood.

 

[Listening]

If not doctrine, the policy was to keep the African (American) from the priesthood because of the color of his skin.

The church authorities deal with this as the do with the history of polygamy. They will ignore if it possible. However, if they are asked, they will confirm both were taught at one time.

Which is blatantly untrue because it was a matter of lineage. How else do you explain the times when people with dark skin recieved the priesthood while those with light skin were banned? It was always a matter of lineage, not color.

Which is: ignore or admit today, or the church's history of its leaders and their words?

That you don't like it means nothing, Avatar4321? Call your priesthood file leader and take it up the chain of command until you get a definitive answer, which, if you want to know, is going to agree with what I have written.

Doctrine changes in all organizations from time to time.

There is policy and there is doctrine.

The doctrine associated with the limitations on priesthood has not changed. The church never went back and said....we change our teachings on priesthood. They simply indicated that the doctrinal foundation for the policy no longer applied and were moving on. The policy then changed. I am not aware of any apologies or rewrites of the doctrines that supported the policy prior to 1978.

With regard to polygamy. I am not so sure that if there were not a law against it, that we would not be practicing it today. The 133rd section of the D&C talks, in part, about polygamy. The same doctrine that governed the Lords relationship with Abraham still exists today. But our policy is to forbid it's practice at this time.

Will it return ? There is no doubt in my mind.

Do I worry about it ? Not in the least. That was then. People have spent many years disecting the lives of polygamists discussing it's impact on the people involved. And they have drawn numerous conclusions. All of which don't matter in the long run (unless you want to learn how to be a better polygamist.....I guess).

The doctrine still exists and it's place in the eternities is still there. If the Lord choses to reinstitute it, somehow it will get reinstituted.

I don't know of anyone who is looking forward to that day or praying for it (after all, it is often simply seen as a way to have more sex.....but from what I can tell, that so-called benefit is heavily outweighed by all the responsibility that it brought with it).

 

[Listening]

I'm an atheist, and I wouldn't vote for a Mormon. I find the whole thing just a little too freaky.

Yeah...what wierdos.

Joseph Smith brought forth the revelation now called the "Word of Wisdon".

It says you should not gorge on red meat.
It says you should not smoke.
It says you should not drink alcohol.

In those days, it was seen as strange.

Even within the doctrine taught in the D&C, one of our leaders stated in was "incomplete" meaning people need to find the rest of it's application in their own lives. And we get some interesting discussion about obesity, or lack of sleep, or pills, or fads (such as weight loss programs....I).

But in the end, it is about health.

Imagine that, a freaky church that teaches its membes to take care of their bodies in ways that were seen as freaky then....but today seem to be very much in line with what medical science says is pretty good practice.

 

[JoeB131]

I'm an atheist, and I wouldn't vote for a Mormon. I find the whole thing just a little too freaky.

Yeah...what wierdos.

Joseph Smith brought forth the revelation now called the "Word of Wisdon".

It says you should not gorge on red meat.
It says you should not smoke.
It says you should not drink alcohol.

In those days, it was seen as strange.

Even within the doctrine taught in the D&C, one of our leaders stated in was "incomplete" meaning people need to find the rest of it's application in their own lives. And we get some interesting discussion about obesity, or lack of sleep, or pills, or fads (such as weight loss programs....I).

But in the end, it is about health.

Imagine that, a freaky church that teaches its membes to take care of their bodies in ways that were seen as freaky then....but today seem to be very much in line with what medical science says is pretty good practice.

Umm, guy, I happen to like my red meat and a glass of wine. And I don't want anyone telling me I can't have that if I want it. At least not someone who says that he got a message from a sky pixie that I can't have it.

Joseph Smith wasn't interested in their health, he was interested in what all cult leaders are interested in- controlling the lives of less smart people and imposing their will on them.

 

[Listening]

I'm an atheist, and I wouldn't vote for a Mormon. I find the whole thing just a little too freaky.

Yeah...what wierdos.

Joseph Smith brought forth the revelation now called the "Word of Wisdon".

It says you should not gorge on red meat.
It says you should not smoke.
It says you should not drink alcohol.

In those days, it was seen as strange.

Even within the doctrine taught in the D&C, one of our leaders stated in was "incomplete" meaning people need to find the rest of it's application in their own lives. And we get some interesting discussion about obesity, or lack of sleep, or pills, or fads (such as weight loss programs....I).

But in the end, it is about health.

Imagine that, a freaky church that teaches its membes to take care of their bodies in ways that were seen as freaky then....but today seem to be very much in line with what medical science says is pretty good practice.

Umm, guy, I happen to like my red meat and a glass of wine. And I don't want anyone telling me I can't have that if I want it. At least not someone who says that he got a message from a sky pixie that I can't have it.

Joseph Smith wasn't interested in their health, he was interested in what all cult leaders are interested in- controlling the lives of less smart people and imposing their will on them.

I'll bet you are physics major too. How would you even pretend to know what Joseph Smith was interested in. By your own admission, your venture into church doctrine was motivated by your anger towards specific members of the church.

30 years later and you still come across as ignorant and bitter.

You are the less-smart person here. Please don't mix us up in your little band of idiots.

As to not wanting to be told what to do....don't stick your tounge in an electrical outlet (good advice for most...I am sure you will get a charge out of it because you don't want anyone telling you what to do).

This is the religion board....not the politics board and I am more than willing to call you out for the moron that you are.

 

[Listening]

Listening, I congratulate you on the good you find in your faith. I have many LDS and non-LDS Mormon friends. A friend of mine says she finds her faith in the BoM not in JS. She said it was in JS, you would have left the church long time gone.

In truth, your faith becomes complete in the entire package....however, it starts with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. That is what our articles of faith specifically state.

Jesus was the son of God.

Joseph Smith was a prophet. He was a man just like the rest of us, who had a special calling.

But salvation or progress towards what we refer to as exhaultation will take (concievably millions) lots of years.

People have made fun of our doctrine which states that we can become like Our Father In Heaven. Somehow that is supposed to be a reward ? To me, it sounds like an awful lot of work. I don't think anyone would want it who had not grown to love as God loves (us).

What patience.
What consistency.

 

[Skeptik]

If we are really children of god, why wouldn't we grow up to be like our parents?

 

[Avatar4321]

Listening, I congratulate you on the good you find in your faith. I have many LDS and non-LDS Mormon friends. A friend of mine says she finds her faith in the BoM not in JS. She said it was in JS, you would have left the church long time gone.

Your friend is wise to put her faith in the Doctrines of Christ and not in man. The Book of Mormon teaches the Doctrines of Christ. However, Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. I know this from the Spirit. Moreover, I've studied his teachings and his life. And despite his shortcomings he was an amazing man. His capacity for charity and forgiveness was absolutely amazing.

 

[Listening]

If we are really children of god, why wouldn't we grow up to be like our parents?

Certainly, a valid point.

But, you don't get to be like dad or mom overnight.

You have to "Grow Up" as you say. And in this case that might take an eternity.

Our Father In Heaven is the perfect example of love and service.

 

[Avatar4321]

If we are really children of god, why wouldn't we grow up to be like our parents?

We do grow up to be our parents. The Atonement of Jesus Christ was designed to help us overcome the obstacles that keep us from becoming like God: Physical and Spiritual death. Or Death and Sin.

"As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man can become" - Lorenzo Snow

It's very succinct. And some thing that it's a purely LDS idea. But Christians have been teaching the Doctrine of Deification since the days of the Apostles.

Statements by Saint Irenaeus (ca. AD 115-202) on Deification:

"We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods" (Henry Bettenson, The Early Christian Fathers: A Selection from the Writings of the Fathers from St. Clement of Rome to St. Athanasius (London: Oxford University Press, 1956), 94)

"Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is.” (Henry Bettenson, The Early Christian Fathers: A Selection from the Writings of the Fathers from St. Clement of Rome to St. Athanasius (London: Oxford University Press, 1956), 106.; Citing Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4.38 cp. 4.11. )

"But of what gods [does he speak]? [Of those] to whom He says, "I have said, Ye are gods, and all sons of the Most High." To those, no doubt, who have received the grace of the "adoption, by which we cry, Abba Father."(Irenaeus, "Against Heresies," in Ante-Nicene Fathers, edited by Philip Schaff (Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1886)1:419, chapter 6.)

Or how about Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215):

"yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god." (Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks, 1)

"if one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God...His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, "Men are gods, and gods are men." (Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 3.1 see also Clement, Stromateis, 23)

"Those who have been perfected are given their reward and their honors. They have done with their purification, they have done with the rest of their service, though it be a holy service, with the holy; now they become pure in heart, and because of their close intimacy with the Lord there awaits them a restoration to eternal contemplation; and they have received the title of "gods" since they are destined to be enthroned with the other "gods" who are ranked next below the savior. (Henry Bettenson, The Early Christian Fathers: A Selection from the Writings of the Fathers from St. Clement of Rome to St. Athanasius (London: Oxford University Press, 1956),243–244.)

Or Saint Augustine (AD 354-430):

"but He himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying He makes sons of God. For He has given them power to become the sons of God, (John 1:12). If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods" (Augustine, On the Psalms, 50:2.)

It seems though those who were taught by the Apostles and who lead the Church in the centuries following Christ understood that when Paul spoke of us being Joint-heirs with Christ. When Peter mentioned us as partakers of the Divine nature, they were being serious.

I think of them all John says it the best "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

Oh, and thanks to Fairwiki for help with the citations. Didn't originally need it, but i lost my list of citations with the last computer. It's a shame because i had others as well. The CS Lewis quotes on deification were pretty spot on too.

If we are children of God. And we are one with God. How are we not destined to become gods?

 

[IndependntLogic]

I have started this post because it still seems there are a lot of people out there that don't understand our religion. One thing I know I can do is clarify a lot misconceptions that people have.
I served a two year mission in South Africa, and I think I have pretty much heard it all. I actually would welcome some questions that I haven't heard before.
I know some of you aren't interested in what we really believe, but are only going to be interested in trying to trap me in my words, but that's ok. I welcome those attempts as well. Let's see what this develops into.

Okay so SouthPark has an episode about Mormons. They were actually very easy on you guys - at lest compared to other faiths, beliefs etc...

So their version goes that Joe Smith was told by Gabriel to go find so magic decoder plates or whatever. Then by looking through them, he came up with all this stuff and told his rich buddy "Hey, help a brutha out!" The buddy's wife laugh and said it was all BS and burned it. She said he should be able to replicate it.
So then he goes back to Joe Smith and Smith says "Uh, I can't replicate it because you pissed off God. So now uh,,, I'll write a NEW one and you better be cool this time or God is gonna smite your buttocks! Thus Mormonism was born.

So is that how it went or what?

Oh yeah. So I'm out on the porch having a smoke one day and these two gals come up and ask if they can talk to me. So I make a totally serious face and say "Look, I get it. I'm a VERY sexy man. But that doesn't mean you can just come up and try to pick me up on my porch like this. I'm married!" Awkward silence for a moment until they noticed I was grinning. Then we all burst out laughing. Then we talked about everything from the book of Mormon to the Gnostic gospels. So then they ask if they can give me a book or come visit my lovely bride. So I tell them I have a Mormon buddy and I don't want him to miss out on his commission or Ipod or whatever you guys get for converting me. They laughed about that. So did my Mormon buddy when I told him about it.
Now of course, I have a nice blue BOM with Gold Embossed letters...

Cheers, FS

 

[Avatar4321]

Maybe you should try reading the Book of Mormon instead of getting info from South Park. You might actually learn something then.

 

[JoeB131]

If we are really children of god, why wouldn't we grow up to be like our parents?

Well, I read the bible, and the God of the bible is a sociopath who drowns babies. I don't think I'd want to be like him, particularly.

 

[JoeB131]

I'll bet you are physics major too. How would you even pretend to know what Joseph Smith was interested in. By your own admission, your venture into church doctrine was motivated by your anger towards specific members of the church.

30 years later and you still come across as ignorant and bitter.

You are the less-smart person here. Please don't mix us up in your little band of idiots.

Gee, how can I tell what Joseph Smith was interested in?

Hmmm. Marrying 34 women, some as young as 14. Oh, he was doing it so they could get into Heaven, really.

Starting his own private army. (Seriously, the guy road around in a military uniform and styled himself a general.)

Scamming his followers by setting up a fake bank that went bust. Convinced investors they had a lot of money by filling strong-boxes with Sand and putting gold coins on the top.

Demanding absolute fealty from his followers. That's what cults do.

As to not wanting to be told what to do....don't stick your tounge in an electrical outlet (good advice for most...I am sure you will get a charge out of it because you don't want anyone telling you what to do).

This is the religion board....not the politics board and I am more than willing to call you out for the moron that you are.

I think there is a difference between qualified advice and ridiculous advice.

I'll point out the difference.

"Hi, I'm a medical Doctor. I went to school for 8 years to learn how to be a doctor. I think you should moderate on eating your red meat because it will clog your ateries."

"Hi, I'm Joseph Smith. An Angel named Moroni gave me a bunch of gold plates that I won't let anyone see, but he told me that I'm God's messenger. My invisible friend in the sky says you shouldn't eat red meat and let me bang your teenage daughter so she can get into heaven".

Now, which one of those opinions should a rational person take seriously.

 

[JoeB131]

Maybe you should try reading the Book of Mormon instead of getting info from South Park. You might actually learn something then.

I thought that was a pretty funny episode.

But they wiffled at the bat. After spending half an hour taking apart how utterly ridiculous Mormonism is, they admitted it was okay because most Mormons are nice people.

(As opposed to the back-stabbing, sneaky, willfully ignorant examples I've met.)

 

[Listening]

I'll bet you are physics major too. How would you even pretend to know what Joseph Smith was interested in. By your own admission, your venture into church doctrine was motivated by your anger towards specific members of the church.

30 years later and you still come across as ignorant and bitter.

You are the less-smart person here. Please don't mix us up in your little band of idiots.

Gee, how can I tell what Joseph Smith was interested in?

Hmmm. Marrying 34 women, some as young as 14. Oh, he was doing it so they could get into Heaven, really.

Starting his own private army. (Seriously, the guy road around in a military uniform and styled himself a general.)

Scamming his followers by setting up a fake bank that went bust. Convinced investors they had a lot of money by filling strong-boxes with Sand and putting gold coins on the top.

Demanding absolute fealty from his followers. That's what cults do.

As to not wanting to be told what to do....don't stick your tounge in an electrical outlet (good advice for most...I am sure you will get a charge out of it because you don't want anyone telling you what to do).

This is the religion board....not the politics board and I am more than willing to call you out for the moron that you are.

I think there is a difference between qualified advice and ridiculous advice.

I'll point out the difference.

"Hi, I'm a medical Doctor. I went to school for 8 years to learn how to be a doctor. I think you should moderate on eating your red meat because it will clog your ateries."

"Hi, I'm Joseph Smith. An Angel named Moroni gave me a bunch of gold plates that I won't let anyone see, but he told me that I'm God's messenger. My invisible friend in the sky says you shouldn't eat red meat and let me bang your teenage daughter so she can get into heaven".

Now, which one of those opinions should a rational person take seriously.

Hhhhhhmmmm.....

We were talking health codes here.

You forget your pill again ?

How would you know what Joseph Joseph Smith was interested in when he gave the 89th section of the D&C (the health code) ? That was the subject on the table and you made the claim he was not interested in anyone's health.

Now back it up.