The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[bodecea]

She's wrong again, as usual, the DoI wasn't written to persuade anyone. By the time it was written, the founders KNEW it was a shoo in; AND only land owners got a vote anyway.

First of all..the Declaration of Independence was most certainly written to persuade the American people....you don't think it was written to persuade the English King, do you?
Have you ever read the entire thing? The biggest part is the 2nd part...listing all the wrongs done to us...the very core of a persuasive essay.

Second...it was not a shoo in...many of the colonies were still thinking to fight as Englishmen just to regain rights as Englishmen, NOT to become completely independent. The concept of independence was not there at Lexington and Concord...it took a while (and Common Sense)

Finally, if only landowners get to vote, they are the only ones with a stake in a new country...why should anyone else get involved? That is what Jefferson was trying to address.


Still waiting for your evidence about slaves and indentured servants.

You just can't prove how stupid you are often enough, can you?
The DoI absolutely was not written to persuade ANYONE of anything. It was instead written to DECLARE that the decision was made. PERIOD

Again, read a damned history book, or just the link I provided. In the beginning of our nation ONLY white male landowners voted. There is a reason why the right to vote is not included in the Bill of Rights.

Now , for the final time. You are beneath contempt as a person, and as a debater. You are dishonest in EVERY WAY. I will have nothing to do with debating you further in this thread nor any other. And just to be clear , my contempt for you has NOTHING to do with you being gay. I have known gay people before who are honest, so I realize that your dishonesty is not a symptom of you being gay.

Of course you will respond by saying you don't care what I , or anyone else thinks about you, but if that were true, you wouldn't feel compelled to lie continuously to try to make yourself appear smarter than you are, when the truth is you're too stupid to even admit to an error even once in awhile.

I feel sorry for ANYONE who is being influenced by you in anyway; be it on here or in real life. You're pathetic.

I always appreciate the opportunity to showcase YOUR behavior.

Especially when you say for the.....3rd? 4th? time that you will no longer be discussing this with me?

Seems to me, that you are trying very hard to convince yourself of.....something....I'm not sure what....but your post sure isn't full of discussion points.

So....see you tomorrow.

 

[bodecea]

The Declaration of Independence as a persuasive essay:

Persuasive Elements in The Declaration of Independence Essay

The Declaration of Independence: an analysis of the three persuasive appeals

The Declaration of Independence, by Thomas Jefferson - Classic Essays and Arguments - Deductive Argument

Purpose of the Declaration of Independence

United States Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some excellent stuff on what it really was all about.

 

[bodecea]

What difference does it make that it was written to persuade? Most writers write to persuade. That's the purpose of writing.

It doesn't mean they were lying when they said they were founding the country on Christian principle, however.

The proof is in the pudding tho, Allie. They can SAY they are founding the country on Christian principle(s) all they want....where are those christian principles in our laws? In our Constitution, in our court decisions (and that Supreme Court case you pulled out before, the comments you quote were NOT in the decision)

People can SAY all they want. Look at The Brain. He's already said 3 or 4 times that he is no longer going to debate me...and then he comes back and debates me...or at least name-calls and insults. (if you can call that debating) Action speaks a lot louder than words....pretty much everywhere and in everytime.

 

[peach174]

So who do you think the overwhelmingly majority was at the founding of this nation?

 

[Gadawg73]

we Indians sure racked up in the past few years in restitution.

Tell us your secret in being able to still be alive at 178 years of age.

Ever gamble in one of our casinos?

No.
Horse track and poker. Casinos are for suckers.

 

[bodecea]

So who do you think the overwhelmingly majority was at the founding of this nation?

Definitely different variations of Christian....no one here has denied that. But did they pour their Christianity into the Laws and Constitution of this country or did they keep their religions out of the laws and Constitution?

 

[AllieBaba]

No, because WE AREN'T A THEOCRACY. Nobody claimed we were.

The founding fathers stated the principles they were founding the country, and they said they pulled those principles from the bible.

We have no choice but to believe them. Since we can't read minds of people long dead, we get to take them at their many and oft-repeated words.

 

[bodecea]

No, because WE AREN'T A THEOCRACY. Nobody claimed we were.

The founding fathers stated the principles they were founding the country, and they said they pulled those principles from the bible.

We have no choice but to believe them. Since we can't read minds of people long dead, we get to take them at their many and oft-repeated words.

Why? Don't actions speak louder than words? Doesn't the WRITTEN Constitution and WRITTEN and ENFORCED laws speak louder than words?

Point out the Christian tenets in our Constitution.....you know, the Supreme Law of the Land.

 

[Gadawg73]

No, because WE AREN'T A THEOCRACY. Nobody claimed we were.

The founding fathers stated the principles they were founding the country, and they said they pulled those principles from the bible.

We have no choice but to believe them. Since we can't read minds of people long dead, we get to take them at their many and oft-repeated words.

"We have no choice but to believe them"

"As the Government of the United States is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion"
Unanimously approved by the Senate and Congress 1796 and proudly offered by John Adams to the nation in 1797. George Washington appointed the man to negotiate this treaty. Both houses were full of Founders when this was read aloud and passed with NO no votes.
Glad that you have changed your mind Allie. You have no choice to but to believe them.
Well done!

 

[Foxfyre]

No, because WE AREN'T A THEOCRACY. Nobody claimed we were.

The founding fathers stated the principles they were founding the country, and they said they pulled those principles from the bible.

We have no choice but to believe them. Since we can't read minds of people long dead, we get to take them at their many and oft-repeated words.

"We have no choice but to believe them"

"As the Government of the United States is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion"
Unanimously approved by the Senate and Congress 1796 and proudly offered by John Adams to the nation in 1797. George Washington appointed the man to negotiate this treaty. Both houses were full of Founders when this was read aloud and passed with NO no votes.
Glad that you have changed your mind Allie. You have no choice to but to believe them.
Well done!

The famous line you quoted is not in the Constitution nor in any of the Founder Fathers' writings, letters, or papers, however. It is a clause (Article 11?) in a treaty with Tripoli and the wording was to reassure that nation that American Christianity would not be a hindrance or issue due to their being a Muslim nation. I don't remember the exact date but do know it was a number of years after our Constitution was ratified. 1797 comes to mind.

 

[Gadawg73]

No, because WE AREN'T A THEOCRACY. Nobody claimed we were.

The founding fathers stated the principles they were founding the country, and they said they pulled those principles from the bible.

We have no choice but to believe them. Since we can't read minds of people long dead, we get to take them at their many and oft-repeated words.

"We have no choice but to believe them"

"As the Government of the United States is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion"
Unanimously approved by the Senate and Congress 1796 and proudly offered by John Adams to the nation in 1797. George Washington appointed the man to negotiate this treaty. Both houses were full of Founders when this was read aloud and passed with NO no votes.
Glad that you have changed your mind Allie. You have no choice to but to believe them.
Well done!

The famous line you quoted is not in the Constitution nor in any of the Founder Fathers' writings, letters, or papers, however. It is a clause (Article 11?) in a treaty with Tripoli and the wording was to reassure that nation that American Christianity would not be a hindrance or issue due to their being a Muslim nation. I don't remember the exact date but do know it was a number of years after our Constitution was ratified. 1797 comes to mind.

You obviously know nothing about the law and our system of government.
Words mean words. Spin it all you want but I quote verbatim.
Treaties mean what they say. Where was the opposition to this?
The no religous test further illustrates that the Founders wanted no religous influences in government.

 

[AllieBaba]

No, because WE AREN'T A THEOCRACY. Nobody claimed we were.

The founding fathers stated the principles they were founding the country, and they said they pulled those principles from the bible.

We have no choice but to believe them. Since we can't read minds of people long dead, we get to take them at their many and oft-repeated words.

Why? Don't actions speak louder than words? Doesn't the WRITTEN Constitution and WRITTEN and ENFORCED laws speak louder than words?

Point out the Christian tenets in our Constitution.....you know, the Supreme Law of the Land.

There is no need to attribute your own bias to the foundation of the country when the founding fathers stated their intent. You can't just come along and say, "I don't believe they were good Christians, so therefore it wasn't founded on Christianity". Your own opinion has nothing to do with this particular argument. You can't make the argument on your interpretation when they stated plainly what they were doing.

Not only that, how do you dismiss the truly great scholars down through the years who have agreed, en masse, that the country was built upon a Christian foundation? Who are you that we should listen to you, and not Jefferson, Adams, Lincoln, Obama, the supreme court, etc?

 

[AllieBaba]

It comes down to your own ignorance, and your inability or lack of desire to learn. I keep coming back to this, and I think it is fundamental in your inability to grasp the information....you don't know what the word "found" means. You are confusing it with law, with theocracy. And apparently you don't understand what principle or tenets mean, either, since you think they are synonomous with personal faith and theocracy as well.

 

[bodecea]

No, because WE AREN'T A THEOCRACY. Nobody claimed we were.

The founding fathers stated the principles they were founding the country, and they said they pulled those principles from the bible.

We have no choice but to believe them. Since we can't read minds of people long dead, we get to take them at their many and oft-repeated words.

"We have no choice but to believe them"

"As the Government of the United States is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion"
Unanimously approved by the Senate and Congress 1796 and proudly offered by John Adams to the nation in 1797. George Washington appointed the man to negotiate this treaty. Both houses were full of Founders when this was read aloud and passed with NO no votes.
Glad that you have changed your mind Allie. You have no choice to but to believe them.
Well done!

The famous line you quoted is not in the Constitution nor in any of the Founder Fathers' writings, letters, or papers, however. It is a clause (Article 11?) in a treaty with Tripoli and the wording was to reassure that nation that American Christianity would not be a hindrance or issue due to their being a Muslim nation. I don't remember the exact date but do know it was a number of years after our Constitution was ratified. 1797 comes to mind.

Treaties are law after approved by Congress and signed by the President. The Treaty of Tripoly was unanimously approved by Congress and signed by President John Adams. Do you think they would have allowed that statement in if they founded our country on Christian tenets?

 

[AllieBaba]

"We have no choice but to believe them"

"As the Government of the United States is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion"
Unanimously approved by the Senate and Congress 1796 and proudly offered by John Adams to the nation in 1797. George Washington appointed the man to negotiate this treaty. Both houses were full of Founders when this was read aloud and passed with NO no votes.
Glad that you have changed your mind Allie. You have no choice to but to believe them.
Well done!

The famous line you quoted is not in the Constitution nor in any of the Founder Fathers' writings, letters, or papers, however. It is a clause (Article 11?) in a treaty with Tripoli and the wording was to reassure that nation that American Christianity would not be a hindrance or issue due to their being a Muslim nation. I don't remember the exact date but do know it was a number of years after our Constitution was ratified. 1797 comes to mind.

You obviously know nothing about the law and our system of government.
Words mean words. Spin it all you want but I quote verbatim.
Treaties mean what they say. Where was the opposition to this?
The no religous test further illustrates that the Founders wanted no religous influences in government.

Words mean words.

So you accept that the founding fathers founded the country on Christian principles. Since they all stated that they did.

Thank you.

And religious influences are all throughout our FF governmental structure. You, like Bod, are incapable of understanding the nuance of the word "found" or "influence" and confuse it with "law" and "theocracy".

 

[bodecea]

It comes down to your own ignorance, and your inability or lack of desire to learn. I keep coming back to this, and I think it is fundamental in your inability to grasp the information....you don't know what the word "found" means. You are confusing it with law, with theocracy. And apparently you don't understand what principle or tenets mean, either, since you think they are synonomous with personal faith and theocracy as well.

Then give us YOUR definition of the word.

 

[bodecea]

The famous line you quoted is not in the Constitution nor in any of the Founder Fathers' writings, letters, or papers, however. It is a clause (Article 11?) in a treaty with Tripoli and the wording was to reassure that nation that American Christianity would not be a hindrance or issue due to their being a Muslim nation. I don't remember the exact date but do know it was a number of years after our Constitution was ratified. 1797 comes to mind.

You obviously know nothing about the law and our system of government.
Words mean words. Spin it all you want but I quote verbatim.
Treaties mean what they say. Where was the opposition to this?
The no religous test further illustrates that the Founders wanted no religous influences in government.

Words mean words.

So you accept that the founding fathers founded the country on Christian principles. Since they all stated that they did.
Thank you.

And religious influences are all throughout our FF governmental structure. You, like Bod, are incapable of understanding the nuance of the word "found" or "influence" and confuse it with "law" and "theocracy".

Show us how they put those Christian Principles into our Constitution.

 

[AllieBaba]

No, why would I prove something I never claimed, and which has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ARGUMENT?????

Are you fucking retarded or what? Because at this point it looks like it.

 

[bodecea]

No, why would I prove something I never claimed, and which has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ARGUMENT?????

Are you fucking retarded or what? Because at this point it looks like it.

Give us your definition of the word "founded", Allie.

 

[Foxfyre]

"We have no choice but to believe them"

"As the Government of the United States is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion"
Unanimously approved by the Senate and Congress 1796 and proudly offered by John Adams to the nation in 1797. George Washington appointed the man to negotiate this treaty. Both houses were full of Founders when this was read aloud and passed with NO no votes.
Glad that you have changed your mind Allie. You have no choice to but to believe them.
Well done!

The famous line you quoted is not in the Constitution nor in any of the Founder Fathers' writings, letters, or papers, however. It is a clause (Article 11?) in a treaty with Tripoli and the wording was to reassure that nation that American Christianity would not be a hindrance or issue due to their being a Muslim nation. I don't remember the exact date but do know it was a number of years after our Constitution was ratified. 1797 comes to mind.

You obviously know nothing about the law and our system of government.
Words mean words. Spin it all you want but I quote verbatim.
Treaties mean what they say. Where was the opposition to this?
The no religous test further illustrates that the Founders wanted no religous influences in government.

Sir, for a number of years the Founders conducted Christian worship services IN THE CHAMBERS of CONGRESS!!! They believed this legal since attendance at the services was purely voluntary. Almost to a man, they emphasized that our system of government and our Constitution would not stand except in the care of a religious and moral people.

That you cannot differentiate between that and a subsequent line in a treaty with a Muslim nation says far more about your lack of understanding of law and system of government than mine.

George Washington: “What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”

George Washington: “It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.”

George Washington: "It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.”

George Washington: “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable.” (Thanksgiving Proclamation 1789)


George Washington: “True religion affords to government its surest support.”

“I … [rely] upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.” - Samuel Adams

Samuel Adams: “We have this day [Fourth of July] restored the Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven, and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His Kingdom come.”

Samuel Adams: “The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.”

- United States Congress 1782

“Congress passed this resolution: “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.” - United States Congress 1782

“By Law the United States Congress adds to US coinage:” “In God We Trust”- United States Congress 1864

John Adams: “The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.”

John Adams: "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

John Adams: “The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.”

John Adams: “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

John Adams: "[The Fourth of July] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”

John Adams: “As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him.”

Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."


John Jay, First Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty – as well as privilege and interest – of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."


Benjamin Rush, signer of the Declaration of Independence: “The only foundation for . . . a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”

John Witherspoon, Continental Congress: “He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy to his country.”

John Dickinson, signer Constitution of the USA, Continental Congress: “The rights essential to happiness. . . . We claim them from a higher source — from the King of kings and Lord of all the earth.”

Benjamin Franklin: “Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.”

Thomas Jefferson, President: "God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

James Madison: "We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.”

James Madison: “Religion [is] the basis and foundation of Government”


Noah Webster: "In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed … No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people."

Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story: “I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law … There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”

“And this be our motto, ‘In God is our trust’” - USA National Anthem, Third Verse

United States Supreme Court: “This is a Christian nation” - United States Supreme Court Decision in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892
“Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of The Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian…This is a Christian nation”