They beheaded that poor Korean...

[coiler]

Sorry everyone.

I'm new to these chat rooms. I've been writing letters to editors and stuff like that for a long time. This is really a great forum. I didn't mean to be caustic or rude. I remembered reading in the site rules something about not using links. Then I went back and re read that they only discourage links to promote advertising. I would have put some sources in there from the beginning. Thanks for being patient while I learned something today.

coiler

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by coiler
What claim do you need further back up on? I've supplied you with the numbers. You can access the Iraqi Body Count Project at http://www.iraqbodycount.net/contacts.htm

But if you're one of those rabid, right wing, "blame everybody but America first" types it won't do you any good to access information that doesn't confirm what you've already decided you want to believe. You won't hear it anyway.

Instead turn on your T.V., kick off your shoes, and get the full scoop from FOX news. They wouldn't steer you wrong...would they?

Here are the 'Team Members'-Fair and Impartial I'm sure!

The IRAQ BODY COUNT Project Team are:

HAMIT DARDAGAN (Co-founder, principal researcher and site manager) is a freelance researcher currently working in London. He has made an in-depth study of the research methods of Professor Marc Herold, who pioneered a media-based methodology for estimating civilian deaths in the Afghan war of 2001-2. He has written for Counterpunch, and has undertaken research for a number of organisations, including Greenpeace. He has been chair of "Kalayaan" a human rights campaign for overseas domestic workers in the UK, which led to significant enhancement in their legal rights.

JOHN SLOBODA (Co-founder, associate researcher and archivist) trained as a research psychologist and is currently Professor of Psychology at the University of Keele, UK. In 1999-2000 he worked with the Committee for Peace in the Balkans, and researched effects on the civilian population of the NATO bombing campaign. Since September 11th 2001 he has been responsible for the daily peaceuk.net mailing list disseminating critical non-violent perspectives on "the war on terror". He is a founder member of the Network of Activist Scholars of Politics and International Relations (Naspir), and a local delegate to the Stop the War Coalition. He is currently Web Resources Manager for Peace News, and in January 2004 was appointed Executive Director of Oxford Research Group.

KAY WILLIAMS (Senior researcher and archivist) is a recently retired librarian, who worked most recently as Head of Acquisitions in Keele University Library. She runs a mailing list for those in the Keele and Newcastle-under-Lyme area of Staffordshire who are interested in local and national anti-war activities.

BÜLENT GÖKAY (Project consultant) is a Senior Lecturer in International Relations at Keele University. He is co-founder and core researcher of the Keele Southeast Europe Unit. He has authored many books and articles on global politics, the Middle East, Balkans and Central Asia, including A Clash of Empires: Turkey between Russian Bolshevism and British Imperialism (1997), The Politics of Caspian Oil (2001), Eastern Europe Since 1970 (2002), and The Most Dangerous Game in the World: Oil, War, and US Global Hegemony (2002), and is co-editor of the forthcoming book, War, Terror and Judgement: 11 September 2001 (Feb 2003).

TORBEN FRANCK (Webmaster) is a musician and peace activist. He is webmaster for www.peaceuk.net, www.humanshields.org as well as Iraq Body Count. He has recorded a track (with Joe Wilson) for the recent Stop the War CD compilation, issued in December 2002. He is a delegate to the Stop the War National Conference.

MARC HEROLD (Research consultant) is an Associate Professor of Economic Development, International Affairs and Women's Studies at the University of New Hampshire, USA, where he has taught since 1975. He holds a Master's degree in international business and finance and a Ph.D in Economics from the University of California in Berkeley, as well as an engineering degree in electronics from the Swiss Federal Polytechnic University. He has focused his writings upon social and economic changes in the Second and Third Worlds and his current research interests are on Brazil and Afghanistan, including the latter country's post-war situation. In December 2001 he released a widely cited study of the human costs of the U.S. military campaign in Afghanistan "A Dossier on Civilian Victims of United States' Aerial Bombing of Afghanistan: A Comprehensive Accounting"), updates to which may be found at: http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mwherold.

GLEN RANGWALA (Legal consultant) is a lecturer in politics at Newnham and Trinity Colleges, Cambridge University. He is trained in political theory and international law. His doctorate, from Cambridge University, was in political and legal rhetoric in the Arab Middle East. He is also published on a number of other themes, including international humanitarian law, comparative human rights law, Iraq and nuclear weapons.

DAVID FLANAGAN (Technical consultant) is author of JavaScript: The Definitive Guide (among other standard works) and wrote the JavaScript code for Iraq Body Count that keeps our Web Counters updated while making them easy for webmasters to install.

PETER BAGNALL (Tech consultant & user support) is currently a postgraduate student at Lancaster University studying computer science and psychology. He spent two years working as a software design consultant in Silicon Valley, and before that four years as a network research engineer for British Telecom. His professional interest is using technology to provide real benefit to society, rather than just to develop flashy gadgets. His thoughts on ethics, politics and technology can be found on his website.

TRANSLATORS FOR PEACE is a free association of translators from all countries and of all nationalities. The Association was founded in 1999, during the Kosovo war, by a group of Italian translators who decided to dedicate a portion of their time to translate and publish information regarding the costs of modern technological wars in terms of human lives, the environment, democracy and human rights.

ERIC CLARKE (Assistant researcher) is professor of music at the University of Sheffield, where he does research and teaching in the psychology of music. He was an active member of Camden CND ( http://www.camdenstopwar.org.uk/ )in the 1980s, and is a member of Amnesty International.

NIKKI DIBBEN (Assistant researcher) is a lecturer in music at Sheffield University where she carries out research into music perception, and gender representations in popular music.

JOSHUA DOUGHERTY (Assistant researcher) is a guitarist, private instructor and a graduate student in music at the University of the Arts in Philadelphia, PA, USA.

MARIANNE FILLENZ (Assistant researcher) is senior research fellow in neuroscience at St Anne's College Oxford and retired University lecturer in Physiology. She was a member of the national committee of Scientists against Nuclear Arms (SANA) and is a present member of Scientists for Global Responsibility.

CHARLIE FORD (Assistant researcher) was awarded a doctorate for his holistic critique of Mozart's Cosi fan tutte in 1989 and has since published on popular music. He is an active member of Amnesty International and an occasional contributor to peaceuk mailings.

JORDANA LIPSCOMB (Assistant researcher) is a retired litigation attorney and mother of two. Supporting member and event coordinator of Musicians Opposing War (MOW). She received her Bachelors of Arts degree from New York University in Russian Language and her Juris Doctorate Degree from Southwestern University School of Law. She is currently researching the legalities and criminal implications of this war and welcomes information and sources on this subject.

SCOTT LIPSCOMB (Assistant researcher) is a co-founder of Musicians Opposing War, a collective of Northwestern University faculty, staff, & students in the United States who came together for the purpose of expressing opposition to the War on Iraq, who believe that U.S. military aggression is likely to increase - not deter - terrorism on American shores, and who advocate seeking non-violent solutions to the world's problems through a consensus of peace-minded nations. Scott is an Associate Professor in the School of Music at Northwestern, where he teaches in the Music Education and Music Cognition programs and carries out research related to the processes involved in music listening and their affect upon the listener. He is also co-author of "Rock and Roll: Its History and Stylistic Development" (2003, 4th edition, Prentice-Hall) and has been extremely concerned about the lack of response to this issue from the musical community. The recent appearance of organizations like Musicians United to Win Without War (Russell Simmons, Rosanne Cash, Michael Stipe, Dave Matthews, Peter Gabriel, Suzanne Vega, and others) is a welcome occurrence and hopefully only the first of many more that will follow.

DARELL WHITMAN (Assistant researcher) is a post-graduate student with the School of Politics, International Relations and the Environment at Keele University. He holds a Master’s degree in Government from California State University, Sacramento, a Master’s degree in Political Sociology from Southern Oregon University, and a Juris Doctorate in law from the University of Santa Clara. He is an attorney licensed to practice law in California and U.S. federal courts. He has been a long-time peace and environmental in the U.S., and served on the national organizing committee of the Emergency Committee to Stop the War (Gulf War I) from 1991-1992.

ROWAN WILLIAMS (Assistant researcher) is a graduate in Modern Languages from the University of Cambridge. For a number of years she was Justice and Peace representative for the Anglican Community of St Francis, and a member of the steering group of the Justice and Peace Links of the interdenominational Conference of Religious. She is currently training for the priesthood in Cambridge.


Nice round-up of 'objective' researchers. And he calls Bush dishonest!

 

[HGROKIT]

Originally posted by coiler
What claim do you need further back up on? I've supplied you with the numbers. You can access the Iraqi Body Count Project at http://www.iraqbodycount.net/contacts.htm

I went to the site - thank you for providing the info. No surprise to you what I am about to write I am sure. I am suspect of their numbers. WE have a lecturer, a teacher, a librarian, a java script designer and a musician among others that are the principals of this site. Fairly impressive credentials in their own fields I am sure, but not necessarily in the realm of obtaining or estimating wartime casualties. This site also obviously leans left.

I am not here to argue that there has not been collateral losses. Happens in every war. However, let's represent the facts and not idealogical aspirations of a notion agains the war at any cost.

Project on Defense Alternatives Research Monograph #8, a more objective source for these casualties, estimates the loss of civilian life at around 3200 - 4300 non-comatants and 4800-6300 combatants. Still a staggering number, but no where near where your source claims. Additionally, these numbers come from the field, the hsopitals, mortuaries and burial serivces.

Complete Details

 

[coiler]

I guess the true number lies somewhere between what my source says and what the Pentagon says. Judging by their "no comment" on this subject that number is functionally zero.

I guess we could get a more accurate number if we mixed in a few Pentagon researchers with the peace activists but that's the problem..they don't want to touch the subject. Instead of offering numbers of their own they just knock everybody else's numbers. It seems the only people who care enough to bother keeping track of Iraqi deaths are people on the peace side of the issue.

I know that collateral damage is an inevitable consequence of war. Perhaps it can be justified in a "just war" that has to be fought for our national defense. However the PROVEN false justifications for this war make even one Iraqi civilian death murder.

It's not a matter of left and right.

 

[Annie]

However the PROVEN false justifications for this war make even one Iraqi civilian death murder. by coiler

and those would be?

 

[JIHADTHIS]

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However the PROVEN false justifications for this war make even one Iraqi civilian death murder. by coiler
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and those would be?
__________________
Kathianne

Damn Kathianne, you beat me to it!

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by JIHADTHIS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However the PROVEN false justifications for this war make even one Iraqi civilian death murder. by coiler
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and those would be?
__________________
Kathianne

Damn Kathianne, you beat me to it!

LOL We're both still waiting.:

 

[Yurt]

Originally posted by coiler
IActually the Constitutional powers are very limited in regards to the use of military force. The Constitution is very specific in stating that this force shall only be used to defend Americas borders.

Not true.. they are not limited

US Const. AII S2
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States

------------------------------------------------
These duties carry very broad powers, including the power to deploy American forces abroad and commit them to military operations when the President deems such action necessary to maintain the security and defense of the United States. . . . --http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article02/08.html#1

There are many opinions about the breadth of power the president has to commit US to engage the enemy. Only the congress can declare war. However, the reality is, after WWII the president has had broad power to engage our troops, not necessarily to defend our "borders," rather to protect our interests, ie, security of the US.

Just a thought, but consider our interest in getting rid of Saddam. All the european powers, Ex president Billy, believed that Saddam had WOMD. Bush did not invent this, contrary to left wingers. Bush used his best judgment and believed ousting Saddam (regime change, which BTW, Billy's policy was IDENTICAL) was in our best interest and would provide greater security for tihs country. I know, right now it looks bad. Yet consider, Japan, Germany, all took about 5-10 years to rebuild. Any they did not have as many wackos destroying their own County!! We could be out of there sooner, if the "insurgents" would stop harming their "own" country. Have some confidence in your leaders.

 

[MtnBiker]

Originally posted by coiler
At least these beheaded hostages are dying relatively quickly and humanely.

In your realm of humanity, what exactly is humane about sawing someone's head off with a knife and then broadcasting the images on a website?

 

[coiler]

OK...you guys play rough. You are going to make me go back and provide links to all the speeches given in the buildup to the war?You mean you haven't heard of Condi Rice's "mushroom cloud" and the C.I.A.'s aerial drones? Are you honestly trying to tell me you haven't heard the story about Bush's discredited Niger uranium claim? Have you heard about David Kay and his conclusion that there never were WMD in iraq and Colin Powell's mobile weapons labs of last summer that turned out to be mobile helium plants for weather balloons?

As for no Iraqi link to 9/11...Do I have to find a link to George Bush's quote last fall when he publicly humiliated Dick Cheney by correcting what he said like a day earlier about Saddam Hussein supporting Al Qaeda terrorists?

Even if Bush hadn't of just reaffirmed a few days ago that Iraq was not behind 9/11 the issue of no WMD and no link to Al Qaeda has been in the news so much lately it's become almost a cliche.

Only someone living in a cave could say they haven't heard of these things. But if you need links and proof give me a little while to do some quick research.

 

[HGROKIT]

Originally posted by coiler
OK...you guys play rough. You are going to make me go back and provide links to all the speeches given in the buildup to the war?You mean you haven't heard of Condi Rice's "mushroom cloud" and the C.I.A.'s aerial drones? Are you honestly trying to tell me you haven't heard the story about Bush's discredited Niger uranium claim? Have you heard about David Kay and his conclusion that there never were WMD in iraq and Colin Powell's mobile weapons labs of last summer that turned out to be mobile helium plants for weather balloons?

As for no Iraqi link to 9/11...Do I have to find a link to George Bush's quote last fall when he publicly humiliated Dick Cheney by correcting what he said like a day earlier about Saddam Hussein supporting Al Qaeda terrorists?

Even if Bush hadn't of just reaffirmed a few days ago that Iraq was not behind 9/11 the issue of no WMD and no link to Al Qaeda has been in the news so much lately it's become almost a cliche.

Only someone living in a cave could say they haven't heard of these things. But if you need links and proof give me a little while to do some quick research.

It would be helpful if when you post a reply, you perhaps include a little of what you are responding to or at least the nic of who you are responding to.

I do not think anyone on here is rough. They like their debate clean, to the point and well documented. Innuendos and rhetoric will definitely not cut it.

One more time - If you make a statement and hold it out to be fact - source it. If your statement is opinion - besure you state so. If you are inviting discourse with your opinion, source a basis for your foundation..

You seem intelligent (sorry for your political leaning), so this should not be a difficult concept for you. You will find most people here are intelligent and well read; do not expect them to buy any bullshit lock stock and barrel

 

[MtnBiker]

Very well said HGROKIT.

 

[khayri11]

Question: I keep hearing mostly democrats say there are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. What did Saddam use to gas the Kurds with? He used chem weapons during the Iraq-Iran war didn't he?

 

[menewa]

Originally posted by HGROKIT
Why do you obsess on proving anything to anyone? We owe no one an explanation.

This thread is supposed to be about the poor guy that got beheaded. Not this Abu BS thing that happened over what 60 some days ago and is being dealt with?

You initially brought up Abu G in this thread. You believed that the media's airing of this controversy was what was responsible for the beheadings. But the one who holds ultimate responsibilty is the perpetrators of the crimes at the prison.
As for obssessing over proof. This is a nation of laws. For us to have good laws and a good Republic we need to obsess over truth, and truth stems from proof.

 

[Sandy73]

I WILL SAY IT AGAIN BOMB THE "F"ING PLACE TO DUST !!!!!!

 

[JIHADTHIS]

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However the PROVEN false justifications for this war make even one Iraqi civilian death murder. by coiler
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So, is the above statement your opinion or are you stating it is fact?

Seems that the first half of this statement is an alleged "fact" and the second half your opinion.

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by menewa
You initially brought up Abu G in this thread. You believed that the media's airing of this controversy was what was responsible for the beheadings. But the one who holds ultimate responsibilty is the perpetrators of the crimes at the prison.
As for obssessing over proof. This is a nation of laws. For us to have good laws and a good Republic we need to obsess over truth, and truth stems from proof.

Menewa, those that perpetrated crimes at Abu are responsible for the recent beheadings?

I think not. At least...you can't prove that. So why say it?
These sick fucks kill Americans, Koreans, etc. for chuckles. Or for virgins. Or because Bob parked his Humvee too close to Mecca. Come on. Stop trying to blame Americans for these vicious acts. Have some sympathy for Americans over there in harms way.

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by Sandy73
I WILL SAY IT AGAIN BOMB THE "F"ING PLACE TO DUST !!!!!!

Is that the voice of reason I hear??????

Or a cricket fart...

 

[Sandy73]

Nope Flasher thats your Mom calling you to change your underoos

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by Sandy73
Nope Flasher thats your Mom calling you to change your underoos

Nothing comes between me and my Calvins...