This time socialism will work, ooops. No this time it will work, ooops. No no this time it will work, ooops.

[bripat9643]

What decisions does the government make for a company? Head of HR? What computers to purchase?

Give us an example.

in the example of a car, it decides whether it has to have seat belts, certain kinds of bumpers, gas mileage, the kind of fuel it uses, the kind of windsheild installed, how many tails lights are installed, yada, yada, yada. It also decides who the company will hire, how much it will pay them, what the work rules will be, benefits, yada, yada, yada.

 

[otto105]

Sure it is. The more regulated a business is, the more the government is the true owner. If you supposedly own a car, but the guy next door gets to decide who gets to use it, who actually owns the car?

Again, give us an example of the decisions that the government make for a business. Not some jackass bullshit about your neighbor.

 

[bripat9643]

Mind numbing it it’s stupidity.

What causes inflation, idiot?

 

[task0778]

They have been convinced by voices they trust that any regulation is a bane to capitalism. In fact, proper and efficient regulation is a critical component of capitalism.

Any regulation? I think you have wildly overstated the case, most RWs are aware that proper and efficient regulation is a critical requirement for capitalism to work well. Stupid, needless, or duplicate regs is another story. I doubt there are many who advocate for no regulation at all.

And BTW, let's not assume that a socialist economy won't have poor regulations too.

 

[bripat9643]

Again, regulation isn’t ownership.

Sure it is.

Again, give us an example of the decisions that the government make for a business. Not some jackass bullshit about your neighbor.

I already gave you a long list of them.

 

[task0778]

Arrogant ignorance: The essence of Trumpism.

I kinda think there's a lot of arrogant ignorance going around on both sides. Case in point: Afghanistan.

 

[Thinker101]

How so? If I want to own a business, I first would look at customer base and product offerings.

Well, let's take a fairly simple example. California now requires new homes to be built and solar panels be installed, adding somewhere in the ballpark of $20,000 to the price. Does that encourage people to buy new homes or older homes? Similar song and dance on purchasing a gun.

 

[Dragonlady]

Yes, but but but slaaaaavery.....

The United States of America has been a "socialist country" since the Founders required the government to provide libraries and the Post Office.

Public Schools, courts, protection of private ownership of real property and intellectual property, fire departments, police departments, highways, roads and bridges. All of them are "socialist" programs. As are Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the Affordable Care Act, employment standards, environmental standards, and the military.

Anything that the government owns or manages and the taxpayers pay for, is a socialist program.

And every first world government in the world, is a "socialist democracy", including yours.

 

[Rigby5]

Yes, but but but slaaaaavery.....

That is silly because Marx was never a socialist, and Marx was never involved in trying to implement any form of economic or political system.

Collective ownership obviously always works.
That is how almost every country works, going back to ancient Egyptians and Rome, or anywhere in the world, like the rice paddies of Vietnam.
In any hunter/gatherer society, a successful hunt by anyone, is shared by everyone.

 

[bripat9643]

The United States of America has been a "socialist country" since the Founders required the government to provide libraries and the Post Office.

The Founders did not require the government to provide libraries. It also did not require the government to provide a postal system.

Public Schools, courts, protection of private ownership of real property and intellectual property, fire departments, police departments, highways, roads and bridges. All of them are "socialist" programs. As are Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the Affordable Care Act, employment standards, environmental standards, and the military.

Public schools hardly existed until the second half of the 20th century. Most fire departments were volunteer until abut the same time.government build roads didn't exist until about the 1940s. Mpst of the programs you listed didn't exist until the mid 2000s/

Anything that the government owns or manages and the taxpayers pay for, is a socialist program.

And every first world government in the world, is a "socialist democracy", including yours.

I agree those are all socialist. However, you committed the post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.

 

[Rigby5]

Any regulation? I think you have wildly overstated the case, most RWs are aware that proper and efficient regulation is a critical requirement for capitalism to work well. Stupid, needless, or duplicate regs is another story. I doubt there are many who advocate for no regulation at all.

And BTW, let's not assume that a socialist economy won't have poor regulations too.

Ok, but if you are in favor of regulations that prevent things like child labor, unsafe work conditions, anti trust laws, monopoly prevention, etc., then you are a socialist.

{...
socialism
[ˈsōSHəˌlizəm]

NOUN

1. a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
   ...}
   
   

 

[bripat9643]

Ok, but if you are in favor of regulations that prevent things like child labor, unsafe work conditions, anti trust laws, monopoly prevention, etc., then you are a socialist.

{...
socialism
[ˈsōSHəˌlizəm]

NOUN

1. a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
   ...}
   

I don't approve of any of that.

 

[Rigby5]

The Founders did not require the government to provide libraries. It also did not require the government to provide a postal system.

Public schools hardly existed until the second half of the 20th century. Most fire departments were volunteer until abut the same time.government build roads didn't exist until about the 1940s. Mpst of the programs you listed didn't exist until the mid 2000s/

I agree those are all socialist. However, you committed the post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.

I don't think it is a post hoc, ego propter fallacy because it is not trying to prove something based just on sequential correlation, but the fact ALL democratic societies apparently choose socialism when given the chance.
When given the opportunity, people have always chosen socialism.
The only time the people do not pick socialism is when they are not allowed to pick at all.

 

[Rigby5]

I don't approve of any of that.

If you do not allow industry to be regulated, then the corporate wealthy elite take over with armed security forces and turn us all into slaves.

Why do you think we had to make laws like 40 hour work week, against child labor, against slavery, etc.?
Industry was more than happy to work us and our children to death, until we stopped them by force.

 

[dblack]

If you do not allow industry to be regulated, then the corporate wealthy elite take over with armed security forces and turn us all into slaves.

LOL - no, they wouldn't. This is a silly leftist fantasy.

Also - please stop equivocating on the word "regulation". Laws that protect our rights are just and proper. Laws that dictate behavior, to placate special interests, aren't.. Which are you talking about?

 

[Dragonlady]

I don't approve of any of that.

Whether YOU approve of any of that is completely irrelevant. The rest of the nation voted for those policies, and they continue to vote for them in every election where social programs are on the ballot - like 2012, 2018, and 2020 when health care has been on the ballot - Democrats have won every single one of those elections.

LOL - no, they wouldn't. This is a silly leftist fantasy.

Also - please stop equivocating on the word "regulation". Laws that protect our rights are just and proper. Laws that dictate behavior, to placate special interests, aren't.. Which are you talking about?

It already happened. Workers were being locked into unsafe factories when they caught fire and died. They were being killed by unsafe machinery, or practices. Employers could force employees to work in unsafe conditions until the employees revolted, and formed unions.

The union movement started precisely because neither the government nor the employers were doing ANYTHING to protect workers at all. And yes, many workers were treated like slaves.

In one company towns, there was only one place to work, so you worked for what they paid you. The company owned the local general store, which charged whatever they deemed "fair". They also extended credit for those who worked for the "company". If you quit, you debt to the company store would be deducted from whatever wages you were owed.

You load sixteen tons, and what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
St. Peter don't you call me cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store.

 

[dblack]

Whether YOU approve of any of that is completely irrelevant. The rest of the nation voted for those policies, and they continue to vote for them in every election where social programs are on the ballot - like 2012, 2018, and 2020 when health care has been on the ballot - Democrats have won every single one of those elections.



It already happened. Workers were being locked into unsafe factories when they caught fire and died. They were being killed by unsafe machinery, or practices. Employers could force employees to work in unsafe conditions until the employees revolted, and formed unions.

The union movement started precisely because neither the government nor the employers were doing ANYTHING to protect workers at all.

Yep. Too bad the unions sold out.

And yes, many workers were treated like slaves.

You might wanna rethink that. If you had the opportunity, would you like to explain, to an actual slave, how Amazon workers have it just as bad?

In one company towns, there was only one place to work, so you worked for what they paid you. The company owned the local general store, which charged whatever they deemed "fair". They also extended credit for those who worked for the "company". If you quit, you debt to the company store would be deducted from whatever wages you were owed.

The company towns thing was abysmal - and, quite rightly, we did away with them. The idea was to build as much dependency on employment as possible - to make it so the employee couldn't leave without serious hardship. You know, like we've done with health insurance.

 

[otto105]

What causes inflation, idiot?

Rising prices on core items is measured in the inflation rate. It does not matter what causes them to rise.

LOL - no, they wouldn't. This is a silly leftist fantasy.

Also - please stop equivocating on the word "regulation". Laws that protect our rights are just and proper. Laws that dictate behavior, to placate special interests, aren't.. Which are you talking about?

Do laws against murder dictate behavior? Or speeding?

 

[otto105]

Sure it is.

I already gave you a long list of them.

No you have industry regulation for all companies engaged in that production.

Safety requirements which have saved countless lives.

 

[otto105]

The Founders did not require the government to provide libraries. It also did not require the government to provide a postal system.

Public schools hardly existed until the second half of the 20th century. Most fire departments were volunteer until abut the same time.government build roads didn't exist until about the 1940s. Mpst of the programs you listed didn't exist until the mid 2000s/

I agree those are all socialist. However, you committed the post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Our country then had that bathtub size government you assholes want to return too.