Torture, or whatever you want to call it, "justified" by majority

[Coyote]

I'm still awaiting an answer from you. Do you have the guts? Or are you going to keep on ducking and dodging?

...if you could save the 80-90 children slaughtered by the savages, and information could be gained either with or without torture but you couldn't be sure which would work - would you have acquiesced to torture?

Since "information could be gained either with or without torture" means that both would work, I can't imagine why you would pose a question.

I mean clearly torture would be a last resort, right?

In real life - that is the real choice. Information can be gained by other means and we can not be sure which method will bring about accurate inforamtion. So why is torture is chosen instead? Especially torture applied so broadly as the CIA did - not, as they claimed, to just 3 of the most evil masterminds. That was a blatent lie and that is also the seductive path of torture.

The only time I can see a real-life reason for using torture is immediate on-the-battlefield situations where critical information (such as the location of a mine) is needed immediately. That is not the case here.

Your premise was not appropriate for the question. Torture would not be used if not needed, obviously.

You seriously believe that? Torture would not be used if it were not perceived as "needed" for what ever reason the torturer deems valid.

While playing Last Christmas by Wham would be enough to break me, it cannot be guaranteed to work on the like of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. So, if you cannot coerce critical information in life and death cases, then I, and most Americans, would sanction whatever means necessary.

That's real life.

Torture didn't work on KSM either.

 

[Jarhead]

Torture, or whatever you want to call it, "justified" by majority of Americans.

New poll finds majority of Americans believe torture justified after 9 11 attacks - The Washington Post

By an almost 2-1 margin, or 59-to-31 percent, those interviewed support the CIA’s brutal methods, with the vast majority of supporters saying they produced valuable intelligence.

Just goes to show how fragile our rights and liberties are that fear, not rationality, would allow us to justify torture. Saying they "believed" it produced "valuable intelligence" is not the same as actually producing "valuable intelligence".

Never trust your rights to public opinion because some day you might be on the wrong side of it.

Using tactics creating fear and pain have been implemented in getting information from a detainee for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
If it didn't work, something tells me it would have been eliminated many years ago.

Oh yeah....but politicians with an agenda said they don't work.

So I guess they don't.

A lot of things have been since the dawn of humanity and persist. That doesn't mean they work (for the intended purpose).

Rhetoric used to avoid having to address the point being made.
When things are found not to work, people stop doing them.

If causing fear and/or pain on an enemy detainee did not result in valuable intel, man would have ended the practice centuries ago.

It is basic logic.

 

[Vandalshandle]

"
If causing fear and/or pain on an enemy detainee did not result in valuable intel, man would have ended the practice centuries ago."

Civilized people did end it. Hell, even the Jesuits stopped doing it!

 

[Coyote]

Torture, or whatever you want to call it, "justified" by majority of Americans.

New poll finds majority of Americans believe torture justified after 9 11 attacks - The Washington Post

By an almost 2-1 margin, or 59-to-31 percent, those interviewed support the CIA’s brutal methods, with the vast majority of supporters saying they produced valuable intelligence.

Just goes to show how fragile our rights and liberties are that fear, not rationality, would allow us to justify torture. Saying they "believed" it produced "valuable intelligence" is not the same as actually producing "valuable intelligence".

Never trust your rights to public opinion because some day you might be on the wrong side of it.

Using tactics creating fear and pain have been implemented in getting information from a detainee for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
If it didn't work, something tells me it would have been eliminated many years ago.

Oh yeah....but politicians with an agenda said they don't work.

So I guess they don't.

A lot of things have been since the dawn of humanity and persist. That doesn't mean they work (for the intended purpose).

Rhetoric used to avoid having to address the point being made.
When things are found not to work, people stop doing them.

If causing fear and/or pain on an enemy detainee did not result in valuable intel, man would have ended the practice centuries ago.

It is basic logic.

The point was stupid. Animals do whatever works to get a reward, even if it's destructive in the long run. That's basic learning theory and humans and dogs aren't that different. In the case of torture - that reward is ultimately, a confession. As was pointed out - the Salem Witch Trials are a great example. They all confessed (of course - they were pre-judged guilty) and torture revealed not only their guilt but their "confederates". So...people do whatever works...sure...but works for what?

 

[BullKurtz]

I was tortured and gassed in Advanced Infantry Training....Wahhhh...lol

I was waterboarded as part of the SERE training at RECONDO school at Nha Trang....lucky for me I was one of the last recruits to go through it....the floor was so slippery the instructors could barely keep their footing....they loaded me up for about 20 seconds and then told me it was over....huh? that's it? I started to get up and BAM I was thrown back down for another 20 seconds...that one scared me. I was glad to get through that....there were guys who quit that day. Now I know what it's like to drown....

 

[georgephillip]

I was waterboarded as part of the SERE training at RECONDO school at Nha Trang..

How many times were you thrown out of a helicopter flying hundreds of feet above ground level?

 

[Cross]

I was tortured and gassed in Advanced Infantry Training....Wahhhh...lol

I was waterboarded as part of the SERE training at RECONDO school at Nha Trang....lucky for me I was one of the last recruits to go through it....the floor was so slippery the instructors could barely keep their footing....they loaded me up for about 20 seconds and then told me it was over....huh? that's it? I started to get up and BAM I was thrown back down for another 20 seconds...that one scared me. I was glad to get through that....there were guys who quit that day. Now I know what it's like to drown....

They still do it...

 

[Cross]

Torture WORKS! Fourty seven confessed to being witches at the Salem with trials!

How many witches confessed in the Salem witch trials Answerbag

Wouldn't be that they confessed because if one confessed they escaped capital punishment would it?

 

[Pop23]

Bodecea - I get it. You accept torture as just a part of the way things are right now.

But many pages ago you were asked, what other American ideals and values are you willing to punt so easily?

I apologize if you answer and I missed it, but could you bring me up to date with your answer?

Here's your problem. "So easily "

War is hell, what's "easy" about it?

 

[BullKurtz]

[QUOTE="georgephillip, post: 10361443, member: 2
How many times were you thrown out of a helicopter flying hundreds of feet above ground level?[/QUOTE]

Been fitted for your suicide vest yet, fig-gobbler?

 

[Neil N. Blowme]

Ex-CIA Official says Pelosi Feinstein Faking Ignorance Outrage about Terror Interrogations IS ALL AN ACT John Hawkins Right Wing News

 

[AvgGuyIA]

Just one more indicator of the decline of our civilization.

Don't worry liberal. ISIS is on the rise.

 

[georgephillip]

Oh? So is that a threat against the United States?

That's a prediction, Apple Pie.

 

[BullKurtz]

Did you land on your head when tossed out of that helicopter?

For American readers here, I did fall out about 8 feet off a Huey once trying to get off a last few parting shots when they banked it too hard and out I went....landed on my ruck in a tree...knocked the wind outta me but didn't knock me out. Door-gunner kept Nathan grabbing cover while they figured out what to do....I didn't want to get McGuire rigged (dope on a rope) so they threw me down a rope....one chance at doing it....they pulled me up....damn near cried I was so happy....they all rubbed my head for some of my good luck.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Everyone knock it off and get back to the topic at hand

 

[georgephillip]

"A majority of Americans believe that the harsh interrogation techniques used on terrorism suspects after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks were justified, even as about half the public says the treatment amounted to torture, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.

"By an almost 2-1 margin, or 59-to-31 percent, those interviewed support the CIA’s brutal methods, with the vast majority of supporters saying they produced valuable intelligence."

Majority rules?

New poll finds majority of Americans believe torture justified after 9 11 attacks - The Washington Post

 

[Vandalshandle]

How would "a vast majority" know that torture "produced valuable intelligence"?

 

[georgephillip]

How would "a vast majority" know that torture "produced valuable intelligence"?

Because Dick, Dubya, and Rummy told them so about a thousand times?

 

[Freewill]

How would "a vast majority" know that torture "produced valuable intelligence"?

Because the majority know how they would react.

 

[TemplarKormac]

How would "a vast majority" know that torture "produced valuable intelligence"?

Because Dick, Dubya, and Rummy told them so about a thousand times?

They told Democrats the same thing, and they too believed it. Not a peep from them when they were briefed about it in 2002-03.