Traditional Values Defined

[manu1959]

Not sure how you got to here, but you're a tad off course. I treat people the way I would like to be treated. It's not any more complicated than that.

do not they have the same right.....thus who's idea of what is the correct way to treat people correct? that is why i asked you what are you values.....you siad laws not commandments which is whya i made a joke about the other 7....then you decided you actuall practiced more than three.....so you so i am not off course but your are beining less than hinest about how you lead your life and where you get your gudiance

 

[Nightwish]

which ones particed deism? why do make assumptions about what i do and don't know? from what document do you draw the conclusion that the founding fathers " seemed to care little for most of the mythology surrounding him" and since you used the word most....which parts did they agree with and which parts did they not? and from which document do you draw this conclusion from?

Here is a website that will give you a good start in learning about the deism of many of the Founding Fathers, as well as quite a few quotes regarding religion and Christianity. For the sake of brevity, I'll not post each and every quote provided by the following Founding Fathers, but if you follow the link, you'll find a whole lot more. Many of these quotes are taken from their private notes and letters.

James Madison

• "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
  
• "Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
  
• "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774
  
• "Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."

John Adams

• "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816
  
• "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" -letter to Thomas Jefferson
  
• "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."
  
• "The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"
  
• ". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
  
• "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

Thomas Jefferson

• "Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - "Notes on Virginia"
  
• "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.- letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787
  
• "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." - to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
  
• "Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself." -in his private journal, Feb. 1800
  
• "The priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, are as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore."- to Story, Aug. 4, 1820
  
• "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
  
• "We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication."
  
• "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
  
• "Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law." -letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

George Washington

First, a couple quotes about Washington ...

Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175]

Paul F. Boller states in is anthology on Washington: "There is no mention of Jesus Christ anywhere in his extensive correspondence." [Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 14-15]

... and a quote from him:

• "Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." - letter to Edward Newenham, 1792

Benjamin Franklin

First, a quote about Franklin ...

"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)

... and a few quotes from him:

• ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."
  
• "I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." - "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", 1728
  
• "I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." - Works, Vol. VII, p. 75
  
• "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
  
• "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." -in Poor Richard's Almanac
  
• "I looked around for God's judgments, but saw no signs of them."
  
• "In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

Thomas Paine

• "The New Testament, they tell us, is founded upon the prophecies of the Old; if so, it must follow the fate of its foundation.''
  
• "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
  
• "What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith."
  
• "Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which only the strange belief that it is the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies."
  
• "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
  
• "The story of Jesus Christ appearing after he was dead is the story of an apparition, such as timid imaginations can always create in vision, and credulity believe. Stories of this kind had been told of the assassination of Julius Caesar."
  
• "The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."

 

[MissileMan]

do not they have the same right.....thus who's idea of what is the correct way to treat people correct? that is why i asked you what are you values.....you siad laws not commandments which is whya i made a joke about the other 7....then you decided you actuall practiced more than three.....so you so i am not off course but your are beining less than hinest about how you lead your life and where you get your gudiance

But that's the beauty of the "golden rule", it requires no more than what it is. Only someone with a severe mental deficiency would want someone to transgress against them.

And the fact that I don't sit around carving idols is not evidence of some subconcious guidance from the bible.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

But still. Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

 

[Nightwish]

Here are some more quotes:

Ethan Allen

• "Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian."
  
• "Though 'none by searching can find out God, or the Almighty to perfection,' yet I am persuaded, that if mankind would dare to exercise their reason as freely on those divine topics as they do in the common concerns of life, they would, in a great measure, rid themselves of their blindness and superstition, gain more exalted ideas of God and their obligations to him and one another, and be proportionally delighted and blessed with the views of his moral government, make better members of society, and acquire, manly powerful incentives to the practice of morality, which is the last and greatest perfection that human nature is capable of."

 

[Nightwish]

But still. Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Actually the word is "respecting," not "regarding." That's an important difference, because respecting means "favoring," not simply "about."

 

[Annie]

Pleasing each other through gossamer visions. More power to you two.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Actually the word is "respecting," not "regarding." That's an important difference, because respecting means "favoring," not simply "about."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=respecting

check definition 3:
To relate or refer to; concern.



Do YOU believe in dictionaries? Some here don't anymore.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Pleasing each other through gossamer visions. More power to you two.

Remove the stick, kathianne.

 

[Nightwish]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=respecting

check definition 3:
To relate or refer to; concern.



Do YOU believe in dictionaries? Some here don't anymore.

Interesting that you should prefer the tertiary definition (the least commonly used among them) to the primary. Why is that? If you read the Constitution in context with the numerous quotes available from the Founding Fathers at the time the Bill of Rights was being framed and debated, it is crystal clear that it was definition 1, not definition 3 that they had in mind. Thus my point stands, your use of "regarding" was not only incorrect by the actual language of the Amendment (they used "respecting"), but also somewhat misleading, as regarding primarily means observing or concerning (about), while esteem or favor is at best the tertiary meaning.

I normally don't quibble so much over word choice, but the debate over the establishment clause often gets mired down in misinterpretations that it means Congress shall make no law having anything to do with religion, which is what you seemed to be implying by choosing that wording.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Interesting that you should prefer the tertiary definition (the least commonly used among them) to the primary. Why is that? If you read the Constitution in context with the numerous quotes available from the Founding Fathers at the time the Bill of Rights was being framed and debated, it is crystal clear that it was definition 1, not definition 3 that they had in mind. Thus my point stands, your use of "regarding" was not only incorrect by the actual language of the Amendment (they used "respecting"), but also somewhat misleading, as regarding primarily means observing or concerning (about), while esteem or favor is at best the tertiary meaning.

I normally don't quibble so much over word choice, but the debate over the establishment clause often gets mired down in misinterpretations that it means Congress shall make no law having anything to do with religion, which is what you seemed to be implying by choosing that wording.

It was written a while ago. Common usage may have changed. I'm certain they didn't mean "congress shall only make laws disrespectful to religion".


It is one definition of the word. Get over it. I know it hurts to be repeatedly bitch slapped. Get used to it and you'll fit in fine.

 

[Nightwish]

It was written a while ago. Common usage may have changed. I'm certain they didn't mean "congress shall only make laws disrespectful to religion".

I didn't say it did. I said it means that Congress shall make no laws that favor any one religion over any other. It shall make no laws which endorse or raise any religion to a level of recognition that is not enjoyed by all others. Nor shall it legislate to hamper the legal practice of any religion, except inasmuch as certain specific practices might be governed by other laws (no religion is going to be able to get away with practicing human sacrifice, and have that practice protected by the establishment clause).

I know it hurts to be repeatedly bitch slapped.

I'm sure you're in a position to know that quite well.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I didn't say it did. I said it means that Congress shall make no laws that favor any one religion over any other. It shall make no laws which endorse or raise any religion to a level of recognition that is not enjoyed by all others. Nor shall it legislate to hamper the legal practice of any religion, except inasmuch as certain specific practices might be governed by other laws (no religion is going to be able to get away with practicing human sacrifice, and have that practice protected by the establishment clause).


I'm sure you're in a position to know that quite well.

I'm certain they didn't mean the "favoring" definition. I don't know for sure, of course. The "regarding, or referring to" definition just seems to make more sense. Making a law favoring the establishment of religion just doesn't seem sensible. What would such a law be like?

 

[Nightwish]

I'm certain they didn't mean the "favoring" definition. I don't know for sure, of course. The "regarding, or referring to" definition just seems to make more sense. Making a law favoring the establishment of religion just doesn't seem sensible. What would such a law be like?

It would be like what they had previously endured in Europe, where Christianity was state sponsored, and you could be jailed or even killed for practicing or professing anything else. Their entire purpose for creating the 1st Amendment was to prevent that from happening again. If you read the letters and writings of the Founding Fathers while those debates were going on, prior to the framing of the Bill of Rights, that will become abundantly clear. They don't imply it, they come right out and say it.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

It would be like what they had previously endured in Europe, where Christianity was state sponsored, and you could be jailed or even killed for practicing or professing anything else. Their entire purpose for creating the 1st Amendment was to prevent that from happening again. If you read the letters and writings of the Founding Fathers while those debates were going on, prior to the framing of the Bill of Rights, that will become abundantly clear. They don't imply it, they come right out and say it.

I still think it's the regarding defintion, just like most NON INSANE people.

 

[Nightwish]

I still think it's the regarding defintion, just like most NON INSANE people.

Now, I suspect, you're just trying to save face.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Now, I suspect, you're just trying to save face.

No. I really think that. So do most. I went down your rabbit hole a bit, but the orange marmalade was gone.

 

[007]

Here is a website that will give you a good start in learning about the deism of many of the Founding Fathers, as well as quite a few quotes regarding religion and Christianity. For the sake of brevity, I'll not post each and every quote provided by the following Founding Fathers, but if you follow the link, you'll find a whole lot more. Many of these quotes are taken from their private notes and letters.

James Madison

John Adams

Thomas Jefferson

George Washington

Benjamin Franklin

Thomas Paine

Nice digging. It gives your post weight. But, it's slightly off topic. The thread is about "values", but since this thread has gotten to the point it has, a discussion about "laws" and how religon may or may not have influenced their writing, let's say that in my original post, take out the part that it was written by a Christian entity. Say the "values" were written by people who are athiests. Would you say they are still good values?

 

[LuvRPgrl]

No dear, they are merely your opinion. The facts state otherwise.

Whose facts? Your facts? hahah,, you're insane. Go read the DOI, it has a very long and specific list of grievences as to the REASONS for seperating the colonies from the binds with Great Britian. They are blantantly directed at King George. John Hancock, with his famous signature, wrote it big and declared, "there King George cant miss that one"

As for the writings of the signers of the DOI, they are bountiful, and a link has been provided. Happy reading, you are gonna get an education, well, hold on, no, probably not, because you liberals refuse to see the obvious.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Killing is killing! The executioner is a killer!

Argument: How do you then deter people from commiting murder?

Well, it goes like this:
0400 - Get up or get your ass beat until you do get up out of the rack (not bed)
0405 - Eat your piece of toast, drink your water!
0408 - Depart the dorm area of the prison en route to your work area busting rocks into sand with a 25 pound sledgehammer.
1145 - Take a 15 minute break to wipe the slim and mucus off your hands. Eat your piece of sun dried taost, drink your water.
1200 - Begin busting rocks again
( In the event you should at any time refuse to bust the rocks you are beaten until you resume)
1700 - Take a 30 minute brake for dinner. Eat your bologna sandwich, drink your 4 oz serving of Gatorade.
1730 - Begin busting rocks again.
2000 - Stop! Go back to the dorm area for hose down!
2020 - Get hosed down to clean the stinch off your body
2030 - Go to bed!!!!NOW!!!!!! No talking ever, that's ever again. NO VISITORS! NO PRIVLEDGES! Only a hopeless history of repeating this effort every day until you die on your own.

This is how you deter murder.

First, "thou shalt not kill" is not in the Bible.
Second, what you just described is unconstitutional.