Traditional Values Defined

Yeah, I'd say our first President was a devout christian.


George Washington's Prayer Journal excerpt:

Sunday Morning
Almighty God, and most merciful father, who didst command the children of Israel to offer a daily sacrifice to thee, that thereby they might glorify and praise thee for thy protection both night and day, receive, O Lord, my morning sacrifice which I now offer up to thee; I yield thee humble and hearty thanks that thou has preserved me from the danger of the night past, and brought me to the light of the day, and the comforts thereof, a day which is consecrated to thine own service and for thine own honor. Let my heart, therefore, Gracious God, be so affected with the glory and majesty of it, that I may not do mine own works, but wait on thee, and discharge those weighty duties thou requirest of me, and since thou art a God of pure eyes, and wilt be sanctified in all who draw near unto thee, who doest not regard the sacrifice of fools, nor hear sinners who tread in thy courts, pardon, I beseech thee, my sins, remove them from thy presence, as far as the east is from the west, and accept of me for the merits of thy son Jesus Christ, that when I come into thy temple, and compass thine altar, my prayers may come before thee as incense; and as thou wouldst hear me calling upon thee in my prayers, so give me grace to hear thee calling on me in thy word, that it may be wisdom, righteousness, reconciliation and peace to the saving of the soul in the day of the Lord Jesus. Grant that I may hear it with reverence, receive it with meekness, mingle it with faith, and that it may accomplish in me, Gracious God, the good work for which thou has sent it. Bless my family, kindred, friends and country, be our God & guide this day and for ever for his sake, who lay down in the Grave and arose again for us, Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.

Sunday Evening
O most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ my merciful and loving father, I acknowledge and confess my guilt, in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on thee for pardon and forgiveness of sins, but so coldly and carelessly, that my prayers are become my sin and stand in need of pardon. I have heard thy holy word, but with such deadness of spirit that I have been an unprofitable and forgetful hearer, so that, O Lord, tho' I have done thy work, yet it hath been so negligently that I may rather expect a curse than a blessing from thee. But, O God, who art rich in mercy and plenteous in redemption, mark not, I beseech thee, what I have done amiss; remember that i am but dust, and remit my transgressions, negligences & ignorances, and cover them all with the absolute obedience of thy dear Son, that those sacrifices which I have offered may be accepted by thee, in and for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ offered upon the cross for me; for his sake, ease me of the burden of my sins, and give me grace that by the call of the Gospel I may rise from the slumber of sin into the newness of life. Let me live according to those holy rules which thou hast this day prescribed in thy holy word; make me to know what is acceptable in thy holy word; make me to know what is acceptable in thy sight, and therein to delight, open the eyes of my understanding, and help me thoroughly to examine myself concerning my knowledge, faith and repentance, increase my faith, and direct me to the true object Jesus Christ the way, the truth and the life, bless O Lord, all the people of this land, from the highest to the lowest, particularly those whom thou has appointed to rule over us in church & state. continue thy goodness to me this night. These weak petitions I humbly implore thee to hear accept and answer for the sake of thy Dear Son Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.

Monday Morning
O eternal and everlasting God, I presume to present myself this morning before thy Divine majesty, beseeching thee to accept of my humble and hearty thanks, that it hath pleased thy great goodness to keep and preserve me the night past from all the dangers poor mortals are subject to, and has given me sweet and pleasant sleep, whereby I find my body refreshed and comforted for performing the duties of this day, in which I beseech thee to defend me from all perils of body and soul. Direct my thoughts, words and work, wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the lamb, and purge my heart by thy holy spirit, from the dross of my natural corruption, that I may with more freedom of mind and liberty of will serve thee, the ever lasting God, in righteousness and holiness this day, and all the days of my life. Increase my faith in the sweet promises of the gospel; give me repentance from dead works; pardon my wanderings, & direct my thoughts unto thyself, the God of my salvation; teach me how to live in thy fear, labor in thy service, and ever to run in the ways of thy commandments; make me always watchful over my heart, that neither the terrors of conscience, the loathing of holy duties, the love of sin, nor an unwillingness to depart this life, may cast me into a spiritual slumber, but daily frame me more 7 more into the likeness of thy son Jesus Christ, that living in thy fear, and dying in thy favor, I may in thy appointed time attain the resurrection of the just unto eternal life bless my family, friends & kindred unite us all in praising & glorifying thee in all our works begun, continued, and ended, when we shall come to make our last account before thee blessed saviour, who hath taught us thus to pray, our Father....

Monday Evening
Most Gracious Lord God, from whom proceedeth every good and perfect gift, I offer to thy divine majesty my unfeigned praise & thanksgiving for all thy mercies towards me. Thou mad'st me at first and hast ever since sustained the work of thy own hand; thou gav'st thy Son to die for me; and hast given me assurance of salvation, upon my repentance and sincerely endeavoring to conform my life to his holy precepts and example. Thou art pleased to lengthen out to me the time of repentance and to move me to it by thy spirit and by the word, by thy mercies, and by thy judgments; out of a deepness of thy mercies, and by my own unworthiness, I do appear before thee at this time; I have sinned and done very wickedly, be merciful to me, O God, and pardon me for Jesus Christ sake; instruct me in the particulars of my duty, and suffer me not to be tempted above what thou givest me strength to bear. Take care, I pray thee of my affairs and more and more direct me in thy truth, defend me from my enemies, especially my spiritual ones. Suffer me not to be drawn from thee, by the blandishments of the world, carnal desires, the cunning of the devil, or deceitfulness of sin. work in me thy good will and pleasure, and discharge my mind from all things that are displeasing to thee, of all ill will and discontent, wrath and bitterness, pride & vain conceit of myself, and render me charitable, pure, holy, patient and heavenly minded. be with me at the hour of death; dispose me for it, and deliver me from the slavish fear of it, and make me willing and fit to die whenever thou shalt call me hence. Bless our rulers in church and state. bless O Lord the whole race of mankind, and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and thy son Jesus Christ. Pity the sick, the poor, the weak, the needy, the widows and fatherless, and all that morn or are broken in heart, and be merciful to them according to their several necessities. bless my friends and grant me grace to forgive my enemies as heartily as I desire forgiveness of Thee my heavenly Father. I beseech thee to defend me this night from all evil, and do more for me than I can think or ask, for Jesus Christ sake, in whose most holy name & words, I continue to pray, Our Father....

Tuesday Morning
O Lord our God, most mighty and merciful father, I thine unworthy creature and servant, do once more approach thy presence. Though not worthy to appear before thee, because of my natural corruptions, and the many sins and transgressions which I have committed against thy divine majesty; yet I beseech thee, for the sake of him in whom thou art well pleased, the Lord Jesus Christ, to admit me to render thee deserved thanks and praises for thy manifold mercies extended toward me, for the quiet rest & repose of the past night, for food, rainment, health, peace, liberty, and the hopes of a better life through the merits of thy dear son's bitter passion. and O kind father continue thy mercy and favor to me this day, and ever hereafter; propose all my lawful undertakings; et me have all my directions from thy holy spirit; and success from thy bountiful hand. Let the bright beams of thy light so shine into my heart, and enlighten my mind in understanding thy blessed word, that I may be enabled to perform thy will in all things, and effectually resist all temptations of the world, the flesh and the devil. preserve and defend our rulers in church & state. bless the people of this land, be a father to the fatherless, a comforter to the comfortless, a deliverer to the captives, and a physician to the sick. let thy blessings guide this day and forever through J. C. in whose blessed form of prayer I conclude my weak petitions--Our Father....

Tuesday Evening
Most gracious God and heavenly father, we cannot cease, but must cry unto thee for mercy, because my sins cry against me for justice. How shall I address myself unto thee, I must with the publican stand and admire at thy great goodness, tender mercy, and long suffering towards me, in that thou hast kept me the past day from being consumed and brought to nought. O Lord, what is man, or the son of man, that thou regardest him; the more days pass over my head, the more sins and iniquities I heap up against thee. If I should cast up the account of my good deeds done this day, how few and small would they be; but if I should reckon my miscarriages, surely they would be many and great. O, blessed father, let thy son's blood wash me from all impurities, and cleanse me from the stains of sin that are upon me. Give me grace to lay hold upon his merits; that they may be my reconciliation and atonement unto thee,--That I may know my sins are forgiven by his death & passion. embrace me in the arms of thy mercy; vouchsafe to receive me unto the bosom of thy love, shadow me with thy wings, that I may safely rest under thy suspicion this night; and so into thy hands I commend myself, both soul and body, in the name of thy son, J. C., beseeching Thee, when this life shall end, I may take my everlasating rest with thee in thy heavenly kingdom. bless all in authority over us, be merciful to all those afflicted with thy cross or calamity, bless all my friends, forgive my enemies and accept my thanksgiving this evening for all the mercies and favors afforded me; hear and graciously answer these my requests, and whatever else thou see'st needful grant us, for the sake of Jesus Christ in whose blessed name and words I continue to pray, Our Father....

Wednesday Morning
Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great creator of heaven & earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven, in pity and compassion upon me thy servant, who humbly prostrate myself before thee, sensible of thy mercy and my own misery; there is an infinite distance between thy glorious majesty and me, thy poor creature, the work of thy hand, between thy infinite power, and my weakness, thy wisdom, and my folly, thy eternal Being, and my mortal frame, but, O Lord, I have set myself at a greater distance from thee by my sin and wickedness, and humbly acknowledge the corruption of my nature and the many rebellions of my life. I have sinned against heaven and before thee, in thought, word & deed; I have contemned thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to done, and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against light, despised thy mercies and judgments, and broken my vows and promises; I have neglected tech means of Grace, and opportunities of becoming better; my iniquities are multiplies, and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing, and desire to be vile in my own eyes, as I have rendered myself vile in thinned. I humbly beseech thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins, for the sake of thy dear Son, my only saviour, J. C., who came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance; be pleased to renew my nature and write thy laws upon my heart, and help me to live, righteously, soberly, and godly in this evil worlds; make me humble, meek, patient and contented, and work in me the grace of thy holy spirit. prepare me for death and judgment, and let the thoughts thereof awaken me to a greater care and study to approve myself unto thee in well doing. bless our rulers in church & state. Help all in affliction or adversity--give them patience and a sanctified use of their affliction, and in thy good time deliverance from them; forgive my enemies, take me unto thy protection this day, keep me in perfect peace, which I ask in the name & for the sake of Jesus. Amen.

Wednesday Evening
Holy and eternal Lord God who art the King of heaven, and the watchman of Israel, that never slumberest or sleepest, what shall we render unto thee for all thy benefits; because thou hast inclined thine ears unto me, therefore will I call on thee as long as I live, from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same let thy name be praised. among the infinite riches of thy mercy towards me, I desire to render thanks & praise for thy merciful preservation of me this day, as well as all the days of my life; and for the many other blessings & mercies spiritual & temporal which thou hast bestowed on me, contrary to my deserving. All these thy mercies call on me to be thankful and my infirmities & wants call for a continuance of thy tender mercies; cleanse my soul, O Lord, I beseech thee, from whatever is offensive to thee, and hurtful to me, and give me what is convenient for me. watch over me this night, and give me comfortable and sweet sleep to fit me for the service of the day following. Let my soul watch for the coming of the Lord Jesus; let my bed put me in mind of my grave, and my rising from there of my last resurrection; O heavenly Father, so frame this heart of mine, that I may ever delight to live according to thy will and command, in holiness and righteousness before thee all the days of my life. Let me remember, O Lord, the time will come when the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise and stand before the judgment seat, and give an account of whatever they have done in the body, and let me so prepare my soul, that I may do it with joy and not with grief. bless the rulers and people of this and forget not those who are under any affliction or oppression. Let thy favor be extended to all my relations friends and all others who I ought to remember in my prayer and hear me I beseech thee for the sake of my dear redeemer in whose most holy words, I farther pray, Our Father...

Thursday Morning
Most gracious Lord God, whose dwelling is in the highest heavens, and yet beholdest the lowly and humble upon the earth, I blush and am ashamed to lift up my eyes to thy dwelling place, because I have sinned against thee; look down, I beseech thee upon me thy unworthy servant who prostrate myself at the footstool of thy mercy, confessing my own guiltiness, and begging pardon for my sins; what couldst thou have done Lord more for me, or what could I have done more against thee? Thou didst send me thy Son to take nature upon

The manuscript ends here.....
[William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian(New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]
 
And what importance did Washington place on religion as part of politics, as part the fabric of our nation? From Washington's farewell address:

27 Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.
 
Abbey Normal said:
And what importance did Washington place on religion as part of politics, as part the fabric of our nation? From Washington's farewell address:

27 Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.


Ahhhh, c'mon abby, but he didnt really mean that...what he really meant was (fill in the blank with your own personal best liberal diatribe of lies and obfuscation) ....and ultimately what he meant when he said that we shouldnt "expect" morality to prevail without religous principle, it is what we should try to achieve (FOR THE TRULY DIMWITTED LIBS, SARCASM INTENDED!)
 
Originally Posted by LuvRPgrl
Oh, I get it. If you quote them, its proof of their deism. If I quote them, its merely a sentiment of the population they represented.



Nightwish said:
I must have missed where you quoted them. .


Why should I bother, you have already stated you will twist it into:
"Originally Posted by Nightwish
And in most cases, those were public expressions, reflecting the form and sentiment of the population they represented. ."

apparently Im debating with a person who cant remember what he posted himself a day or two ago, but now wants to argue about the "intent" of men who are over 200 years old :p:


EMMET:DAMN, you guys can do some fast research! I'm very impressed! I just wish I could understand what point you were trying to make.

EXACTLY!

Nightmarish, your problem is you are all over the place. Suddenly you are questioning even that some Christians dont believe in the resurection! SO WHAT????? You are wondering all over the place, and on the internet that might work, but only if people will allow it to. Im ignoring almost everything you say from now on unless its on topic.

You even said a bit back, something to the effect "oh, but if the country is entirely secular or not, thats not what Im talking about" well, guess what, you came into the conversation late, and THAT IS WHAT "WE" WERE TALKING ABOUT. So please try to stay on point.
 
LuvRPgrl said:
Originally Posted by LuvRPgrl
Why should I bother, you have already stated you will twist it into:
"Originally Posted by Nightwish
And in most cases, those were public expressions, reflecting the form and sentiment of the population they represented. ."
Typical excuse for handwaving and getting away with not supporting it. I surmised that most of those were from public expressions, reflecting the form and sentiment of the population they represented, based upon your own claim that your examples come from "speeches." That was your word, not mine. Speeches are public expressions, not private ones. One doesn't hold a speech in the privacy of one's room, or in a private conversation with another person of similar belief. One holds a speech to a public audience, therefore when one makes a speech to a public audience, he frames in such a way that the audience can relate. That is common knowledge. If you ever attend Toastmasters, they'll tell you that.

apparently Im debating with a person who cant remember what he posted himself a day or two ago, but now wants to argue about the "intent" of men who are over 200 years old :p:
No, I didn't forget that I used your own words against you. I was well aware.

Nightmarish, your problem is you are all over the place. Suddenly you are questioning even that some Christians dont believe in the resurection! SO WHAT?????
You missed the point. The point was that there are a great many Christians who practice Christianity in all its pomp and form, yet privately do not believe in all of the mythology. They pray on the name of Christ, but doubt that Christ is there to hear it. If it is so true today, why is it hard for you to believe it was true back then, especially when the consequences for publically stepping outside of mainstream thought were so much more dire back then than they are now?

You are wondering all over the place, and on the internet that might work, but only if people will allow it to. Im ignoring almost everything you say from now on unless its on topic.
I suppose this is another convenience to avoid having to post this "voluminous" collection of quotes you've thus far hand-waved to us.

You even said a bit back, something to the effect "oh, but if the country is entirely secular or not, thats not what Im talking about" well, guess what, you came into the conversation late, and THAT IS WHAT "WE" WERE TALKING ABOUT. So please try to stay on point.
There are not two, but three competing ideas being tossed about. 1. This is an entirely secular nation. 2. This nation is founded on religious principles, but not intended to be specifically a Christian nation. 3. This is a Christian nation. I disagree with the first one, as I've specifically stated before. I agree with the second one, and disagree with the third. My posts throughout this thread will bear that out. If you think otherwise, then you haven't been following closely enough, or have been selective in only reading those comments which fit your preconceptions about me while ignoring all others. Which is it?
 
LuvRPgrl said:
Ahhhh, c'mon abby, but he didnt really mean that...what he really meant was (fill in the blank with your own personal best liberal diatribe of lies and obfuscation)
I'm just curious why you keep trying to level this canard against the libs, when it was you who actually first brought in the "that's not really what they meant by Christian" argument? If you're going to level a canard at your opposition, you should first make sure that you are not yourself guilty of it. You're not only guilty of it, you birthed it! At least I think it was you. It was one of the "this is a Christian nation" right-wingers, at any rate.
 
Nightwish said:
I'm just curious why you keep trying to level this canard against the libs, when it was you who actually first brought in the "that's not really what they meant by Christian" argument? If you're going to level a canard at your opposition, you should first make sure that you are not yourself guilty of it. You're not only guilty of it, you birthed it! At least I think it was you. It was one of the "this is a Christian nation" right-wingers, at any rate.


In my best Ronald Reagan voice,

"Now there you go again"

changing the topic! :)

I wont fall for it.

The topic is originally VALUES, where do you get them, it also wound up including where does our NATION get them

Our nation was and is founded on and continues to live by "Christian" (todays definition) values, taught by the OT and the NT.

A response was that we are secular, that there was the first amendment, designed to create a wall between church and state. That was refuted by the question I posed repeatedly, which was never answered, if the writers and signers wanted a wall keeping the govt completely secular, then why did they go back to their respective states and continue to support and instill as LAW govt sponsored religions, AT THE STATE LEVEL.?

Then dear ABBY so aptly presented what I was describing and proscribing to Washington, to which I was asked for a link, that shows the direct and unrefutable FACT that the founders based the founding of this country on religion, NOT SECULAR.

The debate isnt if all Christians believe in the resurection.
Its NOT which religion did they base it on
Its not about my supposed chanards.

again, try to stay on topic, I will continue to hound you if you dont, please show were it was intended that the govt of the US be secular, from the outset, or where YOUR own personal values come from.



NOW, on that topic that palerider brought up, I pondered it for quite some time this weekend, and if in fact, one doesnt have a creator that gives him/her a basic set of values, then who are humans to declare killing someone is WRONG? Where does the concept of right and wrong come from?
Isnt it survival of the fittest if you believe in evolution? If I can kill you and take your wife, and spread my seed, isnt that the law of nature you declare rules the world?
 
Nightwish said:
Typical excuse for handwaving and getting away with not supporting it. I surmised that most of those were from public expressions, reflecting the form and sentiment of the population they represented, based upon your own claim that your examples come from "speeches." That was your word, not mine. Speeches are public expressions, not private ones. One doesn't hold a speech in the privacy of one's room, or in a private conversation with another person of similar belief. ?


"now there you go again!" :)

again, irrelevant, get on topic. I suggest you go and read the thread from the beginning.
 
LuvRPgrl said:
"now there you go again!" :)

again, irrelevant, get on topic. I suggest you go and read the thread from the beginning.
I have. You should either post your support, or admit you're handwaving. At any rate, please cease and desist in your excuse-mongering. Put up or shut up, as the saying goes. Do you have these "voluminous" quotes or not? Do you have evidence of their book-signed affiliations or not?
 
LuvRPgrl said:
In my best Ronald Reagan voice,

"Now there you go again"

changing the topic! :)

I wont fall for it.

The topic is originally VALUES, where do you get them, it also wound up including where does our NATION get them

Our nation was and is founded on and continues to live by "Christian" (todays definition) values, taught by the OT and the NT.

A response was that we are secular, that there was the first amendment, designed to create a wall between church and state. That was refuted by the question I posed repeatedly, which was never answered, if the writers and signers wanted a wall keeping the govt completely secular, then why did they go back to their respective states and continue to support and instill as LAW govt sponsored religions, AT THE STATE LEVEL.?

Then dear ABBY so aptly presented what I was describing and proscribing to Washington, to which I was asked for a link, that shows the direct and unrefutable FACT that the founders based the founding of this country on religion, NOT SECULAR.

The debate isnt if all Christians believe in the resurection.
Its NOT which religion did they base it on
Its not about my supposed chanards.

again, try to stay on topic, I will continue to hound you if you dont, please show were it was intended that the govt of the US be secular, from the outset, or where YOUR own personal values come from.



NOW, on that topic that palerider brought up, I pondered it for quite some time this weekend, and if in fact, one doesnt have a creator that gives him/her a basic set of values, then who are humans to declare killing someone is WRONG? Where does the concept of right and wrong come from?
Isnt it survival of the fittest if you believe in evolution? If I can kill you and take your wife, and spread my seed, isnt that the law of nature you declare rules the world?
I'm not in the least bit interested in a history lesson about this thread from post 1 to post X. I'm interested in you answering the question of why you're criticizing others for engaging in a tactic which you yourself introduced?
 
you wrote:

"Our nation was and is founded on and continues to live by "Christian" (todays definition) values, taught by the OT and the NT."

This is an oversimplification. There have been all sorts of Christian values over the years, from the pacificism of the first 1000 years of the Church's history, to the extreme unprovoked violence of the Crusades, to the Inquisition, from the Eastern Church to Pentacostalism. There isn't any one definite set of "Christian" values.

Our country was founded on a complicated mixture of Enlightenment thought, the Greco-Roman heritage (preserved for us by the Muslims), Christian beliefs of several different kinds, Northern European culture and ideas, etc. etc. Pale Rider himself gives the perfect example of this when he talks about traditional values coming from the Bible, but uses a tag line making fun of gun control--which Jesus certainly wouldn't have agreed with. His traditional values obviously include a bit of the mythic Wild West.

In any case, no matter what values the country was founded on, it now relies in large part on a strong secular culture. If we were a more Christian nation, we'd turn off the vast number of Hindus, Buddhists, and other people we rely on to keep our economy going. If we actually followed the policies beloved of heartland Christians, we'd end up a feeble theocratic state with little or no appeal to those who have made America great--people with ambition who didn't want to be constrained by others' beliefs. Hundreds of thousands of non-Christians (such as my parents) were invited in to the U.S. because their talents were needed. Very few people on this message board seem to realize the extent to which our economic might depends on our continuous important of foreign brainpower.

In any case, most traditionalists don't necessarily seem to follow the values they so loudly trumpet. Did you see the figures showing that "corrupt" television programming such as "Desperate Housewives" or "Queer Eye" are watched at least as eagerly in the Red states as the Blue? And what do you make of the fact that when it comes to the tradition of marital monogamy, the national winners aren't found in the Bible Belt. They're right here in Sodom and Gommorah, where we're strong enough in our own marriages not be scared to let gay people marry: Massachusetts.

Mariner.
 
Mariner said:
you wrote:


In any case, most traditionalists don't necessarily seem to follow the values they so loudly trumpet. Did you see the figures showing that "corrupt" television programming such as "Desperate Housewives" or "Queer Eye" are watched at least as eagerly in the Red states as the Blue? And what do you make of the fact that when it comes to the tradition of marital monogamy, the national winners aren't found in the Bible Belt. They're right here in Sodom and Gommorah, where we're strong enough in our own marriages not be scared to let gay people marry: Massachusetts.

Mariner.

You're joking, right?
 
Nightwish said:
I have. You should either post your support, or admit you're handwaving. At any rate, please cease and desist in your excuse-mongering. Put up or shut up, as the saying goes. Do you have these "voluminous" quotes or not? Do you have evidence of their book-signed affiliations or not?

Those quotes have already been posted. Didnt you read some?


anyways,,,please, stay on topic, and dont bother telling me to cease and desist...sheeesh, how boorish :):) :funnyface
 
Nightwish said:
I'm not in the least bit interested in a history lesson about this thread from post 1 to post X. I'm interested in you answering the question of why you're criticizing others for engaging in a tactic which you yourself introduced?

round and round the mulberry bush, the monkey chased the weasel....
 
I believe that the values of each individual are pertinent to the individual and the individual alone. If you want to live as a "good christian" you have the freedom to do so. What bothers me, though, is when these values are infused within government policy. We, as the US, should not adopt "traditional values" as our code of conduct. If you're not gay or you are religious and believe that homosexuality is an intrinsic evil, then don't be gay. But don't try to stop them from marrying or living their lives because of your values. We, as a country, are dedicated to FREEDOM NOT JESUS CHRIST.

Also, I was just curious-- I thought Jesus preached peace and to love everyone. How can you be Christian and support "the armed forces" or any type of war? That just seems hyppocritical and I'd like to know if there is something I missed when reading of the teachings of Christ.
 
liberalogic said:
I believe that the values of each individual are pertinent to the individual and the individual alone. If you want to live as a "good christian" you have the freedom to do so. What bothers me, though, is when these values are infused within government policy. We, as the US, should not adopt "traditional values" as our code of conduct. If you're not gay or you are religious and believe that homosexuality is an intrinsic evil, then don't be gay. But don't try to stop them from marrying or living their lives because of your values. We, as a country, are dedicated to FREEDOM NOT JESUS CHRIST.

Also, I was just curious-- I thought Jesus preached peace and to love everyone. How can you be Christian and support "the armed forces" or any type of war? That just seems hyppocritical and I'd like to know if there is something I missed when reading of the teachings of Christ.



Jesus spoke in parables...when he said "turn the other cheek" It is quite possible that he meant turn theirs also....and if I remember correctly did not the Jews in Germany turn the other cheek literally during Hitlers reign? See what it got them! Hey if ya are Gay(Homosexual) by all means have at it in the privacy of your own home(With concenting adults) this is between you and our maker...As for Homosexual marriage..."Hell no we won't go" THERE!
 
liberalogic said:
I believe that the values of each individual are pertinent to the individual and the individual alone. If you want to live as a "good christian" you have the freedom to do so. What bothers me, though, is when these values are infused within government policy. We, as the US, should not adopt "traditional values" as our code of conduct. If you're not gay or you are religious and believe that homosexuality is an intrinsic evil, then don't be gay. But don't try to stop them from marrying or living their lives because of your values. We, as a country, are dedicated to FREEDOM NOT JESUS CHRIST.

Also, I was just curious-- I thought Jesus preached peace and to love everyone. How can you be Christian and support "the armed forces" or any type of war? That just seems hyppocritical and I'd like to know if there is something I missed when reading of the teachings of Christ.

how can you be a liberal and go on about tollerance diversity and acceptance and pass judgement on people like this?
 
liberalogic said:
I believe that the values of each individual are pertinent to the individual and the individual alone. If you want to live as a "good christian" you have the freedom to do so. What bothers me, though, is when these values are infused within government policy. We, as the US, should not adopt "traditional values" as our code of conduct. If you're not gay or you are religious and believe that homosexuality is an intrinsic evil, then don't be gay. But don't try to stop them from marrying or living their lives because of your values. We, as a country, are dedicated to FREEDOM NOT JESUS CHRIST.

Also, I was just curious-- I thought Jesus preached peace and to love everyone. How can you be Christian and support "the armed forces" or any type of war? That just seems hyppocritical and I'd like to know if there is something I missed when reading of the teachings of Christ.

Well that clears all things up! :duh3:
 
liberalogic said:
I believe that the values of each individual are pertinent to the individual and the individual alone. If you want to live as a "good christian" you have the freedom to do so. What bothers me, though, is when these values are infused within government policy. We, as the US, should not adopt "traditional values" as our code of conduct. If you're not gay or you are religious and believe that homosexuality is an intrinsic evil, then don't be gay. But don't try to stop them from marrying or living their lives because of your values. We, as a country, are dedicated to FREEDOM NOT JESUS CHRIST.

Also, I was just curious-- I thought Jesus preached peace and to love everyone. How can you be Christian and support "the armed forces" or any type of war? That just seems hyppocritical and I'd like to know if there is something I missed when reading of the teachings of Christ.

Maybe we shouldn't have any laws. If you don't believe in murder, don't do it. But who are we to try to force that value on anyone? THAT"S JUST WRONG. CHRISTIANS ARE HYPOCRITES! :slap:
 
liberalogic said:
I believe that the values of each individual are pertinent to the individual and the individual alone. If you want to live as a "good christian" you have the freedom to do so. What bothers me, though, is when these values are infused within government policy. We, as the US, should not adopt "traditional values" as our code of conduct. If you're not gay or you are religious and believe that homosexuality is an intrinsic evil, then don't be gay. But don't try to stop them from marrying or living their lives because of your values. We, as a country, are dedicated to FREEDOM NOT JESUS CHRIST.

Also, I was just curious-- I thought Jesus preached peace and to love everyone. How can you be Christian and support "the armed forces" or any type of war? That just seems hyppocritical and I'd like to know if there is something I missed when reading of the teachings of Christ.

Apparently you missed alot. Not only while reading the Bible, but also the documents that prescribe what our country is all about.
 

Forum List

Back
Top