Traditional Values Defined

[Hobbit]

so if i don't belive in evolution should i have to learn it? by your liberalogic (get it? i kill myself)....no

Uh, he already answered that part in the post you quoted.

 

[manu1959]

Uh, he already answered that part in the post you quoted.

uh....i know....i read it....he can't be serious...can he?

 

[Mariner]

for so many USMB members to push the point that this country was founded primarily by Christians, and that the European culture from which most of them came was also Christian. These are true statements, but they are not complete statements. The particular Christians who came here were often fleeing religious persecution at home. They had to figure out how to get along with other, equally passionate, believers in different versions of Christianity. Hence they developed a culture of tolerance, of individual religion, and of secularism. In some ways, the secular state can be seen as the ultimate expression of deep Christian value of tolerance.

Take a look at this website, which describes the 1844 Philadelphia confrontation about which Bible should be used in the public schools:

http://www.atheists.org/publicschools/battle.html

In my opinion, a secular, pluralistic state has vast advantages for our economy and culture over a homogenous state defined by the beliefs of some particular branch of Christianity which happens to be ascendant at the moment. It permits America to serve properly as a beacon for people of all races and religions who simply want to live in a peaceful, prosperous place.

I've been away for a few days, in New York City. There, in Jackson Heights, I saw something that could likely be seen few other places on planet earth: a store advertising supplies for a Hindu holiday and a Muslim holiday, not just in the same store, but on the same poster. My wife went to some Irish stores, where she learned that the best ones were run by Indians. We ate at an Indian restaurant next to a Korean herbal store next to an Irish grocery. To me, this is what makes America great. Seeking to subject other people to one's own particular religious beliefs, e.g. by pushing school prayer or "faith-based" initiatives, harms the secular state.

We need to be very aware of the effect that this type of Christian pushiness has on how the rest of the world sees us, since we are deeply dependent on immigration for our ongoing success (I have made this point many times on this board, and no one has ever commented on it).

For example, research cited in the current issue of The Atlantic magazine finds that of the world's large nations, the members of only one--India--choose the U.S. as the ultimate place to live, if they could. China is turning towards Europe (its number one trading partner). Australia is extremely attractive to immigrants (more than the U.S.). Science Ph.D.'s are increasingly awarded in Europe and in the countries of immigration themselves--Indian and China especially.

I place the blame for this loss of U.S. prestige squarely on the shoulders of the current Republican Party, in its efforts to cater to its religious right wing and its war hawks. If we can't draw the best and brightest from the rest of the world, we're done for. Perhaps one has to live in an academic center, to appreciate the fact that our driving talent is not home grown. We can't even graduate enough doctors of our own (we rely on foreign medical graduates), what to say of enough physicists, mathematicians, and engineers. In all these field, U.S. students are weak, and scarcely fill half the grad school spots which funnel into the start-up companies and the other engines of the technological economy.

Even a glance at Scientific American magazine's top-50 science list recently shows how American science/tech leadership has eroded--a far larger number of the top scientists were international than even 5 or 10 years ago.

In brief, our position as world leader is at risk, due to our current anti-science, overtly religious leadership. Trying to make the schools or the culture more overtly Christian will only hasten the decline.

Mariner.

 

[Abbey Normal]

...Seeking to subject other people to one's own particular religious beliefs, e.g. by pushing school prayer or "faith-based" initiatives, harms the secular state.
...

There is so much in this post to disagree with, but the above statement really jumped out.

Advocates of school prayer are not saying that everyone must pray to the Christian God. Hindi and Muslims, etc., can pray to their God(s). So how does this push a Christian agenda? More importantly, where is anyone trying to force children to pray? If only those who wanted to pray, prayed, and the rest stay silent, or meditate, or picked their noses, how does that "harm the secular state"?

I am not one to push for school prayer, but I think you are seeing bogeymen where none exist.

 

[liberalogic]

There need be no time set aside for any type (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc.) of prayer in a public school setting. Religion, unless it is being studied in a historical context, simply has no place in the public school. The public school has no right to set aside time for it because it is funded by the government and the government has no say in religion. If anyone wants to pray, they can do it on their own time or go to a private school that represents their religion. This isn't anti-religious; it's just public school is not the appropriate forum for any religion.

....And yes, I was serious about the evolution thing. Since so many religious individuals have such a problem with accepting evolution, why should it be pushed upon them? They are only cheating themselves of factual knowledge.

 

[Gunny]

Please, there is no need to call me names. I find that immature and devoid of the issue.



You guys are taking my comments completely out of context and twisting them for your own benefit.



I'm not trying to turn society into a lawless, chaotic place. That's completely untrue and that's really not fair to put words in my mouth.

My point was that there are traditional, christian values as are shown at the beginning of this thread. I think that some (NOT ALL) of the Christian ideals conflict with the freedoms we have as Americans. That doesn't mean that we should eliminate law and allow murder...it just means that we should be aware of the separation of church and state and not allow religious doctrine to further the laws of our country. If we choose one religious standard, how is that fair to the others? How is that fair to Atheists? Agnostics? If you believe that being a Christian is good, you have all the right to live that way as long as it does not violate the laws that we have. The same goes for any other religion. It shouldn't be, though, that we as a FREE society should base ANY law on a religious premise. I don't find that to be an unreasonable request.

When the society in which you live is based on religious premise, the law will reflect the morals/values of that religion. Pretty much the way it has always worked since societies began and got past the mutual survival part.

Further, when those societies abandoned that which created them, they fell because there was no belief within the society beyond "self."

And also, I apologize-- I did not intend to "pass judgement" on christians. I phrased my question inappropriately...I am not a biblical scholar, but I was raised Roman Catholic and I wrote a college thesis on "The Gospel According to Matthew." From this text, I saw Jesus' main message as love, peace, and charity. I was genuinely curious as to how devout Christians could support any type of warfare or military. I didn't mean that in an arrogant way, but as a question that has puzzled me a bit. I sincerely apologize if I offended someone's faith or passed judgment...that was the farthest thing from my intent.

Even Jesus used violence to achieve an end when he threw the moneychangers out of the Temple, and He was perfect. I am not.

 

[liberalogic]

Even Jesus used violence to achieve an end when he threw the moneychangers out of the Temple, and He was perfect. I am not.

If we are based on Christianity and Jesus, then why don't we make that our official religion? Why isn't adultery illegal? Why isn't divorce illegal? Why do we not have to respect our parents?

The beauty of our country is that we do not refute nor should we endorse religious ideology. There is a separation of church and state. It's not about a higher value to live for-- that's up to the individual. You decide who you live for, your country does not make that decision for you. Society is not doomed if it doesn't have faith; as a matter of fact, faith has plagued many societies.

If you just separate church and state and leave the religious values to the individual, then you are truly endorsing the freedom that our country promotes.

 

[musicman]

If we are based on Christianity and Jesus, then why don't we make that our official religion?

Because, by doing that, we would cease to be based on Christianity and Jesus.

The beauty of our country is that we do not refute nor should we endorse religious ideology. There is a separation of church and state.

Right. The state is specifically instructed to keep it's nose out of the matter of religion.

If you just separate church and state and leave the religious values to the individual...

Would that we could do that. It is the design of our Constitution. Moreover, it is the bedrock principle of Christianity. It is the statist, anti-Christian, liberal socialist secular humanists who keep trying to thwart this ingenious design. They are a most intolerant bunch.

 

[Gunny]

If we are based on Christianity and Jesus, then why don't we make that our official religion? Why isn't adultery illegal? Why isn't divorce illegal? Why do we not have to respect our parents?

The beauty of our country is that we do not refute nor should we endorse religious ideology. There is a separation of church and state. It's not about a higher value to live for-- that's up to the individual. You decide who you live for, your country does not make that decision for you. Society is not doomed if it doesn't have faith; as a matter of fact, faith has plagued many societies.

If you just separate church and state and leave the religious values to the individual, then you are truly endorsing the freedom that our country promotes.

Dishonest argument. You're trying to go all Constitutional on me and that is a separate argument. You are equally as incorrect on that one, but one thing at a time.

We are speaking of society. Society that has no collective ideals/goals/beliefs cannot stand. You won't believe it until it slaps you upside the head, but liberalism is destroying our society by destroying its collective will into fragments of individualism. It's all about YOU and what YOU want. Never is it about what is best for the Nation as a whole, or society as a whole. Sooner or later, someone's going to steal the rug out from under you while you're too busy concerning yourself with your individual desires.

I happen to be a secularist, as it is defined, not by the definition you anti-everything's have attached to it. I do not believe in a state-sponsored religion; which, is what the Consitution precludes. I have no problem with separation of church and state.

The Constitution does NOT preclude religion nor religious expression from within the government, however, as you extremsits would have everyone believe.

Beyond that, you try to confuse religion with law. If you don't want my religion in your government, keep your self-serving interpretation of the law out of my church.

 

[manu1959]

....And yes, I was serious about the evolution thing. Since so many religious individuals have such a problem with accepting evolution, why should it be pushed upon them? They are only cheating themselves of factual knowledge.

What about flat earthers?

What about American Indians and Columbus?

Vietnamese immigrants and Memorial Day?

The list of things people object to is endless.....soon you would be teaching nothing.

I believe you should teach everything and let the individual decide.....worked for 100's of years.....now suddenly it is wrong......

 

[MissileMan]

I believe you should teach everything and let the individual decide.....worked for 100's of years.....now suddenly it is wrong......

Strange, I don't remember an "everything" class from when I went to school...must have been a helluva final exam.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Just for the record-- I'm not Atheist and I never said none of our laws were influenced by christianity...In fact I am Christian, I just believe that our country allows religious freedom, therefore, no one should have to pray in PUBLIC school or be told about creationism if they don't believe it...on the flipside of that coin, though, I think that if you are Christian, you should not be forced to study evolution in public school if it conflicts with your beliefs and your rights to religious freedom.

Oddly enough, while atheists claim Christians want to reject evolution and believe in ID, or creationism because its vital to their religous beliefs and that God created everything. Yet, its their theory of evolution, if proved wrong, destroys their atheism, but we Christians can live with the idea that God used evolution to create everything.

So, to Christians it doesnt disturb their faith one way or the other, but for the atheists, they rely on evolution being true, or their atheism being false.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

for so many USMB members to push the point that this country was founded primarily by Christians, and that the European culture from which most of them came was also Christian. These are true statements, but they are not complete statements. The particular Christians who came here were often fleeing religious persecution at home. They had to figure out how to get along with other, equally passionate, believers in different versions of Christianity. Hence they developed a culture of tolerance, of individual religion, and of secularism. In some ways, the secular state can be seen as the ultimate expression of deep Christian value of tolerance.

Take a look at this website, which describes the 1844 Philadelphia confrontation about which Bible should be used in the public schools:

http://www.atheists.org/publicschools/battle.html

In my opinion, a secular, pluralistic state has vast advantages for our economy and culture over a homogenous state defined by the beliefs of some particular branch of Christianity which happens to be ascendant at the moment. It permits America to serve properly as a beacon for people of all races and religions who simply want to live in a peaceful, prosperous place.

I've been away for a few days, in New York City. There, in Jackson Heights, I saw something that could likely be seen few other places on planet earth: a store advertising supplies for a Hindu holiday and a Muslim holiday, not just in the same store, but on the same poster. My wife went to some Irish stores, where she learned that the best ones were run by Indians. We ate at an Indian restaurant next to a Korean herbal store next to an Irish grocery. To me, this is what makes America great. Seeking to subject other people to one's own particular religious beliefs, e.g. by pushing school prayer or "faith-based" initiatives, harms the secular state.

We need to be very aware of the effect that this type of Christian pushiness has on how the rest of the world sees us, since we are deeply dependent on immigration for our ongoing success (I have made this point many times on this board, and no one has ever commented on it).

For example, research cited in the current issue of The Atlantic magazine finds that of the world's large nations, the members of only one--India--choose the U.S. as the ultimate place to live, if they could. China is turning towards Europe (its number one trading partner). Australia is extremely attractive to immigrants (more than the U.S.). Science Ph.D.'s are increasingly awarded in Europe and in the countries of immigration themselves--Indian and China especially.

I place the blame for this loss of U.S. prestige squarely on the shoulders of the current Republican Party, in its efforts to cater to its religious right wing and its war hawks. If we can't draw the best and brightest from the rest of the world, we're done for. Perhaps one has to live in an academic center, to appreciate the fact that our driving talent is not home grown. We can't even graduate enough doctors of our own (we rely on foreign medical graduates), what to say of enough physicists, mathematicians, and engineers. In all these field, U.S. students are weak, and scarcely fill half the grad school spots which funnel into the start-up companies and the other engines of the technological economy.

Even a glance at Scientific American magazine's top-50 science list recently shows how American science/tech leadership has eroded--a far larger number of the top scientists were international than even 5 or 10 years ago.

In brief, our position as world leader is at risk, due to our current anti-science, overtly religious leadership. Trying to make the schools or the culture more overtly Christian will only hasten the decline.

Mariner.

Sorry, but they never intended for it to be secular in any way shape or form. They intended for it to be influenced by God, through and through, yet maintaining religous freedom, not free from all religion.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

There need be no time set aside for any type (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc.) of prayer in a public school setting. Religion, unless it is being studied in a historical context, simply has no place in the public school. The public school has no right to set aside time for it because it is funded by the government and the government has no say in religion. If anyone wants to pray, they can do it on their own time or go to a private school that represents their religion. This isn't anti-religious; it's just public school is not the appropriate forum for any religion.

....And yes, I was serious about the evolution thing. Since so many religious individuals have such a problem with accepting evolution, why should it be pushed upon them? They are only cheating themselves of factual knowledge.

govt has no business in education

 

[LuvRPgrl]

If we are based on Christianity and Jesus, then why don't we make that our official religion? Why isn't adultery illegal? Why isn't divorce illegal? Why do we not have to respect our parents?

The beauty of our country is that we do not refute nor should we endorse religious ideology. There is a separation of church and state. It's not about a higher value to live for-- that's up to the individual. You decide who you live for, your country does not make that decision for you. Society is not doomed if it doesn't have faith; as a matter of fact, faith has plagued many societies.

If you just separate church and state and leave the religious values to the individual, then you are truly endorsing the freedom that our country promotes.

Nope, no matter how many times the lie is repeated, it wont magically make "seperation of Church and state" suddenly spring up in the constitution. Despite liberals wanting it to be a living breathing document, it simply doesnt grow new words or ideas,

and just because some people have perverted faith and caused havoc in their cultures, that doesnt condemn faith. In fact, the founding fathers stated quite clearly , that without Godly guidance, our govt is doomed.

 

[Mariner]

You are using the Constitution and the Founding Fathers' beliefs as if they were the sole code of instruction that all Americans are supposed to follow ever-after. Maybe life and culture are more complicated than that, and constantly drift, shift, and change--show me a culture in history where they haven't.

Whatever the Founding Fathers intended, it's clear to me that the current U.S. desperately needs to continue to be a melting pot, not identified with any one religion. I guess I can agree with you that we should all know the key documents and events that led to the creation of this country. But each generation will interpret these things in its own way. The conservative temperament will always find this scary, while the liberal temperament will find it interesting. Either can go too far--we need the balance of both ways of thinking, just as we have to balance individual liberty with community good, e.g. the liberty to make money based on the opportunities provided in the U.S. with the community good of breathable air and standing forests.

Mariner.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

[]bYou are using the Constitution and the Founding Fathers' beliefs as if they were the sole code of instruction that all Americans are supposed to follow ever-after.[/b]

Well yes, actually, that's exactly the right idea, old chap. Bully for you!

I guess I can agree with you that we should all know the key documents and events that led to the creation of this country.

You guess?

But each generation will interpret these things in its own way.

Don't deconstruct our founding documents. They don't mean what you want them to mean, you postmodernist, Derrida-dimwit.

Either can go too far--we need the balance of both ways of thinking, just as we have to balance individual liberty with community good, e.g. the liberty to make money based on the opportunities provided in the U.S. with the community good of breathable air and standing forests.

Mariner.

I almost cried on this part. Will you be my personal jesus?

 

[musicman]

I must spread some Reputation around before giving it to rtwngAvngr again.

 

[Max Power]

Nope, no matter how many times the lie is repeated, it wont magically make "seperation of Church and state" suddenly spring up in the constitution. Despite liberals wanting it to be a living breathing document, it simply doesnt grow new words or ideas,

It doesn't have to grow new words, it already prohibits the government from establishing religion... perhaps "prohibition of church in state" would be more accurate, but separation of church and state works fine.

 

[liberalogic]

You are using the Constitution and the Founding Fathers' beliefs as if they were the sole code of instruction that all Americans are supposed to follow ever-after. Maybe life and culture are more complicated than that, and constantly drift, shift, and change--show me a culture in history where they haven't.

Whatever the Founding Fathers intended, it's clear to me that the current U.S. desperately needs to continue to be a melting pot, not identified with any one religion. I guess I can agree with you that we should all know the key documents and events that led to the creation of this country. But each generation will interpret these things in its own way. The conservative temperament will always find this scary, while the liberal temperament will find it interesting. Either can go too far--we need the balance of both ways of thinking, just as we have to balance individual liberty with community good, e.g. the liberty to make money based on the opportunities provided in the U.S. with the community good of breathable air and standing forests.

Mariner.

It is implied in the Constitution and no matter how much you refute it, look at the First Ammendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise therof."

Respecting the establishment of a religion means respecting and abiding by its principles.

I just don't understand why you are so intent on keeping them together...religious should be personal...worship and live according to your religion, but please, separate it from the state. And if you want to say that we were founded on "Judeo-Christian" values, well then it is time to move ahead and adapt to the future without letting these values interfere in government.