Traditional Values Defined

[Gunny]

I believe that the values of each individual are pertinent to the individual and the individual alone. If you want to live as a "good christian" you have the freedom to do so. What bothers me, though, is when these values are infused within government policy. We, as the US, should not adopt "traditional values" as our code of conduct. If you're not gay or you are religious and believe that homosexuality is an intrinsic evil, then don't be gay. But don't try to stop them from marrying or living their lives because of your values. We, as a country, are dedicated to FREEDOM NOT JESUS CHRIST.

Also, I was just curious-- I thought Jesus preached peace and to love everyone. How can you be Christian and support "the armed forces" or any type of war? That just seems hyppocritical and I'd like to know if there is something I missed when reading of the teachings of Christ.

It isn't that you want to let each person define his own set of values. You would replace scoiety's current values with your own.

At which point do your values consider the good fo the whole vs just whatever feels good to you at the moment?

I'm Christian and I support the armed forces. Pretty easy if you aren't being a liberal anti-everything jackass. The armed forces preserve this Nation. Your ranting does not. Without the armed forces, there is no Nation, and with no United States, I lose my freedom to choose Christianity over liber self-love.

Seems pretty-damned simple to me.

 

[007]

I believe that the values of each individual are pertinent to the individual and the individual alone. If you want to live as a "good christian" you have the freedom to do so. What bothers me, though, is when these values are infused within government policy. We, as the US, should not adopt "traditional values" as our code of conduct. If you're not gay or you are religious and believe that homosexuality is an intrinsic evil, then don't be gay. But don't try to stop them from marrying or living their lives because of your values. We, as a country, are dedicated to FREEDOM NOT JESUS CHRIST.

Also, I was just curious-- I thought Jesus preached peace and to love everyone. How can you be Christian and support "the armed forces" or any type of war? That just seems hyppocritical and I'd like to know if there is something I missed when reading of the teachings of Christ.

Aside from your board name being an oxymoron, I don't think you could have sounded more ignorant if you had tried.

Reading mindless psycho-babble like your post just makes my head hurt. I wonder to myself how old you are, or if you're even in school... yet.

I can't even muster a response to anything you said. I might as well go over and stand facing the wall and talk to it.

 

[liberalogic]

Please, there is no need to call me names. I find that immature and devoid of the issue.

You guys are taking my comments completely out of context and twisting them for your own benefit.

I'm not trying to turn society into a lawless, chaotic place. That's completely untrue and that's really not fair to put words in my mouth.

My point was that there are traditional, christian values as are shown at the beginning of this thread. I think that some (NOT ALL) of the Christian ideals conflict with the freedoms we have as Americans. That doesn't mean that we should eliminate law and allow murder...it just means that we should be aware of the separation of church and state and not allow religious doctrine to further the laws of our country. If we choose one religious standard, how is that fair to the others? How is that fair to Atheists? Agnostics? If you believe that being a Christian is good, you have all the right to live that way as long as it does not violate the laws that we have. The same goes for any other religion. It shouldn't be, though, that we as a FREE society should base ANY law on a religious premise. I don't find that to be an unreasonable request.

And also, I apologize-- I did not intend to "pass judgement" on christians. I phrased my question inappropriately...I am not a biblical scholar, but I was raised Roman Catholic and I wrote a college thesis on "The Gospel According to Matthew." From this text, I saw Jesus' main message as love, peace, and charity. I was genuinely curious as to how devout Christians could support any type of warfare or military. I didn't mean that in an arrogant way, but as a question that has puzzled me a bit. I sincerely apologize if I offended someone's faith or passed judgment...that was the farthest thing from my intent.

 

[archangel]

Please, there is no need to call me names. I find that immature and devoid of the issue.

You guys are taking my comments completely out of context and twisting them for your own benefit.

I'm not trying to turn society into a lawless, chaotic place. That's completely untrue and that's really not fair to put words in my mouth.

My point was that there are traditional, christian values as are shown at the beginning of this thread. I think that some (NOT ALL) of the Christian ideals conflict with the freedoms we have as Americans. That doesn't mean that we should eliminate law and allow murder...it just means that we should be aware of the separation of church and state and not allow religious doctrine to further the laws of our country. If we choose one religious standard, how is that fair to the others? How is that fair to Atheists? Agnostics? If you believe that being a Christian is good, you have all the right to live that way as long as it does not violate the laws that we have. The same goes for any other religion. It shouldn't be, though, that we as a FREE society should base ANY law on a religious premise. I don't find that to be an unreasonable request.

And also, I apologize-- I did not intend to "pass judgement" on christians. I phrased my question inappropriately...I am not a biblical scholar, but I was raised Roman Catholic and I wrote a college thesis on "The Gospel According to Matthew." From this text, I saw Jesus' main message as love, peace, and charity. I was genuinely curious as to how devout Christians could support any type of warfare or military. I didn't mean that in an arrogant way, but as a question that has puzzled me a bit. I sincerely apologize if I offended someone's faith or passed judgment...that was the farthest thing from my intent.

In my humble opinion anyone who apologizes and finds the light deserves a pardon! So what say the board...I say kudos to him!(or her)

 

[dilloduck]

Please, there is no need to call me names. I find that immature and devoid of the issue.

You guys are taking my comments completely out of context and twisting them for your own benefit.

I'm not trying to turn society into a lawless, chaotic place. That's completely untrue and that's really not fair to put words in my mouth.

My point was that there are traditional, christian values as are shown at the beginning of this thread. I think that some (NOT ALL) of the Christian ideals conflict with the freedoms we have as Americans. That doesn't mean that we should eliminate law and allow murder...it just means that we should be aware of the separation of church and state and not allow religious doctrine to further the laws of our country. If we choose one religious standard, how is that fair to the others? How is that fair to Atheists? Agnostics? If you believe that being a Christian is good, you have all the right to live that way as long as it does not violate the laws that we have. The same goes for any other religion. It shouldn't be, though, that we as a FREE society should base ANY law on a religious premise. I don't find that to be an unreasonable request.

And also, I apologize-- I did not intend to "pass judgement" on christians. I phrased my question inappropriately...I am not a biblical scholar, but I was raised Roman Catholic and I wrote a college thesis on "The Gospel According to Matthew." From this text, I saw Jesus' main message as love, peace, and charity. I was genuinely curious as to how devout Christians could support any type of warfare or military. I didn't mean that in an arrogant way, but as a question that has puzzled me a bit. I sincerely apologize if I offended someone's faith or passed judgment...that was the farthest thing from my intent.

Laws MUST be based on some standard. If not a belief system of some sort, what do you recommend ?

 

[manu1959]

Please, there is no need to call me names. I find that immature and devoid of the issue.

You guys are taking my comments completely out of context and twisting them for your own benefit.

I'm not trying to turn society into a lawless, chaotic place. That's completely untrue and that's really not fair to put words in my mouth.

My point was that there are traditional, christian values as are shown at the beginning of this thread. I think that some (NOT ALL) of the Christian ideals conflict with the freedoms we have as Americans. That doesn't mean that we should eliminate law and allow murder...it just means that we should be aware of the separation of church and state and not allow religious doctrine to further the laws of our country. If we choose one religious standard, how is that fair to the others? How is that fair to Atheists? Agnostics? If you believe that being a Christian is good, you have all the right to live that way as long as it does not violate the laws that we have. The same goes for any other religion. It shouldn't be, though, that we as a FREE society should base ANY law on a religious premise. I don't find that to be an unreasonable request.

And also, I apologize-- I did not intend to "pass judgement" on christians. I phrased my question inappropriately...I am not a biblical scholar, but I was raised Roman Catholic and I wrote a college thesis on "The Gospel According to Matthew." From this text, I saw Jesus' main message as love, peace, and charity. I was genuinely curious as to how devout Christians could support any type of warfare or military. I didn't mean that in an arrogant way, but as a question that has puzzled me a bit. I sincerely apologize if I offended someone's faith or passed judgment...that was the farthest thing from my intent.

just taking the piss....so you tell me why are devout christians not allowed to support a war or military? are they not allowed to deffend their beliefs and their country?

 

[Annie]

Please, there is no need to call me names. I find that immature and devoid of the issue.

You guys are taking my comments completely out of context and twisting them for your own benefit.

I'm not trying to turn society into a lawless, chaotic place. That's completely untrue and that's really not fair to put words in my mouth.

My point was that there are traditional, christian values as are shown at the beginning of this thread. I think that some (NOT ALL) of the Christian ideals conflict with the freedoms we have as Americans. That doesn't mean that we should eliminate law and allow murder...it just means that we should be aware of the separation of church and state and not allow religious doctrine to further the laws of our country.

Are you saying that there is no Christian/Judeo backing to the present laws?

If we choose one religious standard, how is that fair to the others? How is that fair to Atheists? Agnostics? If you believe that being a Christian is good, you have all the right to live that way as long as it does not violate the laws that we have. The same goes for any other religion. It shouldn't be, though, that we as a FREE society should base ANY law on a religious premise. I don't find that to be an unreasonable request.

This means what?

And also, I apologize-- I did not intend to "pass judgement" on christians. I phrased my question inappropriately...I am not a biblical scholar, but I was raised Roman Catholic and I wrote a college thesis on "The Gospel According to Matthew." From this text, I saw Jesus' main message as love, peace, and charity. I was genuinely curious as to how devout Christians could support any type of warfare or military. I didn't mean that in an arrogant way, but as a question that has puzzled me a bit. I sincerely apologize if I offended someone's faith or passed judgment...that was the farthest thing from my intent.

This is the first post of yours I've read. My head hurts. What grade did you earn on that thesis? I'm assuming it was more than 3 paragraphs? Not that you bothered with paragraphs.

 

[archangel]

Are you saying that there is no Christian/Judeo backing to the present laws? This means what?
This is the first post of yours I've read. My head hurts. What grade did you earn on that thesis? I'm assuming it was more than 3 paragraphs? Not that you bothered with paragraphs.

with this I am going to make a late dinner...some people just have no forgiveness...they just attack at will...I suppose my religious training was a waste...nice going Kathianne...I am sure your students are impressed....geez
and you think I am the hard ass...go figure!

 

[liberalogic]

I don't get what you mean with the paragraphs, Kathianne, I'll assume you mean I'm longwinded...? Or stupid? Or both?

manu1959-- no i'm not saying that you can't defend your country and be religious; I just thought that one of the main premises of Christ's message was peace...so i'm not trying to offend you, i was just trying to ask about the disparity that I saw amongst the Christianity and war.

And yes some of our laws are similar to those of Judeo-Christian values, but what about Ancient Rome before Christianity? What about Ancient Greece? They were polytheistic and had many of the same laws we have today. Only two of the ten commandments are laws: don't kill and don't steal....that's hardly grounds to say that our society is dependent upon these values.

The church and the state may have some similarities in law, but those are only intersections and do not substantiate the majority of our rules of conduct.

 

[manu1959]

I don't get what you mean with the paragraphs, Kathianne, I'll assume you mean I'm longwinded...? Or stupid? Or both?

manu1959-- no i'm not saying that you can't defend your country and be religious; I just thought that one of the main premises of Christ's message was peace...so i'm not trying to offend you, i was just trying to ask about the disparity that I saw amongst the Christianity and war.

And yes some of our laws are similar to those of Judeo-Christian values, but what about Ancient Rome before Christianity? What about Ancient Greece? They were polytheistic and had many of the same laws we have today. Only two of the ten commandments are laws: don't kill and don't steal....that's hardly grounds to say that our society is dependent upon these values.

The church and the state may have some similarities in law, but those are only intersections and do not substantiate the majority of our rules of conduct.

i am not offendable .... wise ass maybe...thin skinned never...

yes it is my opinio that part of christ's message was peace.....still i do not belive he was a pacificst.....american society lives by 8 of 10

disagree with the premise of you last paragraph in toto

 

[MissileMan]

Are you saying that there is no Christian/Judeo backing to the present laws?

I think he's saying, correctly, that we have no laws that are solely a Christian/Judeo concept.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I think he's saying, correctly, that we have no laws that are solely a Christian/Judeo concept.

So what's the problem? Why are you idiot types clamoring about theocracy all the time?

 

[musicman]

So what's the problem? Why are you idiot types clamoring about theocracy all the time?

I'd like to know the answer to this, too. And, just what sinister laws ARE being proposed by Christian theocrats, that seek to impose Judeo/Christian concepts?

 

[007]

I'd like to know the answer to this, too. And, just what sinister laws ARE being proposed by Christian theocrats, that seek to impose Judeo/Christian concepts?

No doubt... just what the hell is so wrong with laws that were written with a Christian influence?

 

[LuvRPgrl]

I don't get what you mean with the paragraphs, Kathianne, I'll assume you mean I'm longwinded...? Or stupid? Or both?

manu1959-- no i'm not saying that you can't defend your country and be religious; I just thought that one of the main premises of Christ's message was peace...so i'm not trying to offend you, i was just trying to ask about the disparity that I saw amongst the Christianity and war.

And yes some of our laws are similar to those of Judeo-Christian values, but what about Ancient Rome before Christianity? What about Ancient Greece? They were polytheistic and had many of the same laws we have today. Only two of the ten commandments are laws: don't kill and don't steal....that's hardly grounds to say that our society is dependent upon these values.

The church and the state may have some similarities in law, but those are only intersections and do not substantiate the majority of our rules of conduct.

One could probably take virtually any (other than Jesus being God, rising from the grave and virgin birth) Judeo/Christian value and find its roots somewhere else, correctly or incorrectly.

The root of it is irrelvant. The question is, where did our founding fathers get their values from? They got them from the teachings of Jesus, hence they are Christian in content.

 

[liberalogic]

Ideas that are floating around about intelligent design, prayer in school, gay marriage, etc. are all based on religious ideologies. These issues stem from religion....it's when the religious context itself interferes with law-- no one is required to be religious, so why must they abide by these ideals? Just because the founding fathers were christian doesn't mean we have to be Christian...we are free to worship as we see fit-- government shouldn't influence this, specifically with the three issues I mentioned above.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Ideas that are floating around about intelligent design, prayer in school, gay marriage, etc. are all based on religious ideologies. These issues stem from religion....it's when the religious context itself interferes with law-- no one is required to be religious, so why must they abide by these ideals? Just because the founding fathers were christian doesn't mean we have to be Christian...we are free to worship as we see fit-- government shouldn't influence this, specifically with the three issues I mentioned above.

Strange how atheists like to claim none of our existing laws are based on Christianity, but then also like to claim Christians want to make laws based on their religion.

IF that were true, then whats the claim:

either, Christians have not in the past attempted to instill laws based on their religion, or

Christians have failed for two hundred plus years now to get even one of their religous based laws passed.

Both suggestions are hilarious at best.

Fact is, the founding fathers all stated and believed that teachings of Jesus and God are necessary for our govt to survive and flourish. One can claim otherwise, but the evidence is overwhelming, its not even questionable.

 

[liberalogic]

Just for the record-- I'm not Atheist and I never said none of our laws were influenced by christianity...In fact I am Christian, I just believe that our country allows religious freedom, therefore, no one should have to pray in PUBLIC school or be told about creationism if they don't believe it...on the flipside of that coin, though, I think that if you are Christian, you should not be forced to study evolution in public school if it conflicts with your beliefs and your rights to religious freedom.

 

[007]

Ideas that are floating around about intelligent design, prayer in school, gay marriage, etc. are all based on religious ideologies. These issues stem from religion....it's when the religious context itself interferes with law-- no one is required to be religious, so why must they abide by these ideals? Just because the founding fathers were christian doesn't mean we have to be Christian...we are free to worship as we see fit-- government shouldn't influence this, specifically with the three issues I mentioned above.

What do mean specifically when you say, "interferes with the law?"

No one is saying you have to be Christian. But in contrast, there sure is a lot people saying that Christianity no longer has any place in America.

Sound familiar?

 

[manu1959]

Just for the record-- I'm not Atheist and I never said none of our laws were influenced by christianity...In fact I am Christian, I just believe that our country allows religious freedom, therefore, no one should have to pray in PUBLIC school or be told about creationism if they don't believe it...on the flipside of that coin, though, I think that if you are Christian, you should not be forced to study evolution in public school if it conflicts with your beliefs and your rights to religious freedom.

so if i don't belive in evolution should i have to learn it? by your liberalogic (get it? i kill myself)....no