Traditional Values Defined

[LuvRPgrl]

Yes.

I agree. I have seen the damage that is done in my life and others. Its a result of the consequences of the behaviors, not the guilt or stress that may be associated with it.

A friend of mine, his sister died at 49. She was one, you suppose the stress killed her? No. It was the drugs.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

I'm not the one whom you were addressing, but I'll add my opinion to your questions, if you don't mind.

Yes.


I'm not sure. I know that they wrote numerous references to God, and to a belief and trust in God, and that many of them wrote from a Deisitic perspective. However, the Deism they espoused was considered heretical by most of the Christian world. As a matter of fact, in the Treaty of Tripoli, John Adams had this to say: "The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation." Now, what that means has long been a hot topic.


God, yes. Christian doctrine, no. Belief in God does not begin and end with Christians.


They are laws because enough of society believed they should be. Those Commandments that are also laws are pretty universal common sense. They existed almost universally, across numerous cultures, before the 10 Commandments were ever scribed. Our laws are meant to reflect the values and ideals and beliefs of our society. What underlying reasons given segments of our society have for sharing common values is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if a Christian thinks murder is wrong because of the 10 CC's, or that an atheist believes it is wrong because it threatens the stability of society. It matters only that both are voters, both are Americans, and both believe (for their own reasons) that murder should be outlawed, and that enough other members of society agree with them to create a majority or to wield enough influence to sway the legislature.


God, yes. The Bible, no. Christian doctrine, no.

Actually, they did quite often refer to Jesus, and to Christianity. They most certainly werent Jews, so the New Testament is their Bible by default. But the writings and references cannot be missed. Go read Washingtons speech about Thanksgiving, etc. etc.They are sooooooooooo numerous that it astounds me that even liberals can deny it. I mean, its like saying the sun isnt bright.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Some of them practiced Christianity, most of them practiced Deism. That's different. They used the Bible, but also conceded that it was not inerrant or the divine dictation of God. They cared a great deal for the spirituality, but very little for the doctrines based upon it. What you're forgetting is that most of the Bible was written by Jews, not Christians. Some of the FF's did refer to Jesus on occasion, but almost exclusively to his teachings about life, tolerance and interaction, but seemed to care little for most of the mythology surrounding him.

WRONG. A majority of them were NOT diests. They were book signed and declared members of various CHRISTIAN denominations. Presbyterian, methodist, luthern, etc, etc.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Where did you get 9 out of 10 from?

Paraphrased (in some instances):

Thou shalt have no other God before me -- Not a law, nor embraced in the Golden Rule.

Thou shalt not make, nor bow down before any graven image -- Not a law, nor embraced in the Golden Rule.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain -- Not a law, nor embraced in the Golden Rule.

Keep the Sabbath -- Not a law, nor embraced in the Golden Rule.

Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother -- Not a law, though an argument could be made for the Golden Rule being relevant.

Thou shalt not kill -- Not all kinds of killing are protected by law, but many are. An argument could be make for the Golden Rule being relevant.

Thou shalt not steal -- Law. Also embraced in the Golden Rule.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor -- a law in some instances, but not generally. The Golden Rule does embrace this.

Thou shalt not covet ... -- Not a law, but the Golden Rule could be relevant.

Only three are embraced in law to any degree, and only five seem relevant to the Golden Rule.

Not a law per se, but you notice the ONE DAY govt offices arent open is SUndays.
You only listed 9 of the 10

 

[LuvRPgrl]

A world full of folks who would not steal, kill or lie really would not be a bad place to live!

Just because someone does not worship the God you do, does not mean they are sitting around on the porch carving little wodden calves to kneel to!

Would you be suggesting that no police officers work on Sunday?
Truck Drivers? C-Stores? How about Power Companies Lineman when your power goes out on a below 0 degree night.

Man, nothing is etched in stone. We have taken the Commandments so far out of context in our lives that one side could always come up with ways to attack the other.

In case you all have forgotton there is suppose to be ONE judge, and you are not it! Criticizing what others do is judging. PERIOD!!!!

Your analogy about the other fellows wife was completely unacceptible as Paul would have defined it. You should never discuss even the thought of sex with a man's wife. Corinthians 2

it is honrable that you feel compelled to debate a better way of living with the folks here on this site and I like to read the things that you write. I just thought that was tacky.......

Well, I think the point was made, and it was a good way to do it. It is SO OBVIOUS he doesnt want others fucking his wife, that there is no way to argue around it. So, its basically proof that he is being deceptive at best.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Here is a website that will give you a good start in learning about the deism of many of the Founding Fathers, as well as quite a few quotes regarding religion and Christianity. For the sake of brevity, I'll not post each and every quote provided by the following Founding Fathers, but if you follow the link, you'll find a whole lot more. Many of these quotes are taken from their private notes and letters.

James Madison

• "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
  
• "Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
  
• "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774
  
• "Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."

John Adams

• "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816
  
• "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" -letter to Thomas Jefferson
  
• "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."
  
• "The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"
  
• ". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
  
• "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

Thomas Jefferson

• "Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - "Notes on Virginia"
  
• "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.- letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787
  
• "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." - to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
  
• "Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself." -in his private journal, Feb. 1800
  
• "The priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, are as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore."- to Story, Aug. 4, 1820
  
• "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
  
• "We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication."
  
• "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
  
• "Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law." -letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

George Washington

First, a couple quotes about Washington ...

Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175]

Paul F. Boller states in is anthology on Washington: "There is no mention of Jesus Christ anywhere in his extensive correspondence." [Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 14-15]

... and a quote from him:

• "Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." - letter to Edward Newenham, 1792

Benjamin Franklin

First, a quote about Franklin ...

"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)

... and a few quotes from him:

• ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."
  
• "I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." - "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", 1728
  
• "I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." - Works, Vol. VII, p. 75
  
• "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
  
• "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." -in Poor Richard's Almanac
  
• "I looked around for God's judgments, but saw no signs of them."
  
• "In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

Thomas Paine

• "The New Testament, they tell us, is founded upon the prophecies of the Old; if so, it must follow the fate of its foundation.''
  
• "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
  
• "What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith."
  
• "Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which only the strange belief that it is the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies."
  
• "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
  
• "The story of Jesus Christ appearing after he was dead is the story of an apparition, such as timid imaginations can always create in vision, and credulity believe. Stories of this kind had been told of the assassination of Julius Caesar."
  
• "The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."

What you fail to understand is their refereences to Christianity is not what we refer to it as today. I dont see anyone in their claiming they are diests. THey did not consider their respective denominations, i.e. presbyterians, quakers, etc. etc, to be "CHRISTIANITY" per se. They were describing the perversion of the doctrines of the Bible, not the doctrines. It was because King George and the leaders of the Church of England would distort the Bible for their own goals.

 

[Nightwish]

What you fail to understand is their refereences to Christianity is not what we refer to it as today.

That's irrelevant. The Christianity of today has only a marginal resemblance to the Christianity at the time of our nation's founding, and almost no resemblance at all to the Christianity at that religion's founding. Your point actually serves to indict the idea that we're a Christian nation, not support it.

I dont see anyone in their claiming they are diests.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that you don't see any of the FF's claiming to be Deists, or that nobody today is claiming to be Deists? If it is the latter, then you should reread some of those quotes. Franklin comes right out and says it, even uses the exact term. Several of the others certainly appear to embrace it, if you understand what the beliefs of Deism were. On the other hand, if your meaning was the latter, that would be because Deism is now basically a dead religion, though it is coming back. Actually, it's not so much a religion as it is a philosophical approach to religion.

They did not consider their respective denominations, i.e. presbyterians, quakers, etc. etc, to be "CHRISTIANITY" per se.

I strongly doubt that.

They were describing the perversion of the doctrines of the Bible, not the doctrines.

They didn't consider Christianity to be the religion of the true doctrines of the Bible, they considered it to be the perversion. They used the phrase "pure religion" (leaving it otherwise unnamed) in the same manner we might use the phrase "pure spirituality." Some of the founders, in fact, were as critical of the Bible as they were of Christianity itself.

It was because King George and the leaders of the Church of England would distort the Bible for their own goals.

I'm sure that was part of what jaded them so much to the institution of Christianity. It doesn't change the fact that many of them eschewed any association with the perversion of pure spirituality that they believed the Christian church to be.

 

[Nightwish]

Nice digging. It gives your post weight. But, it's slightly off topic.

I dug it up and posted it because another poster had specifically requested it.

 

[Nightwish]

Actually, they did quite often refer to Jesus, and to Christianity.

I didn't say otherwise. I said that their references to Jesus were usually in reference to his teachings about life, interaction, and social character, not about the mythical and miraculous elements of his life.

They most certainly werent Jews, so the New Testament is their Bible by default.

What Christian denomination are you aware of that only considers the New Testament to be their Bible?

But the writings and references cannot be missed. Go read Washingtons speech about Thanksgiving, etc. etc.They are sooooooooooo numerous that it astounds me that even liberals can deny it. I mean, its like saying the sun isnt bright.

Again, you're not countering anything that I've actually said. I didn't say they made no references to Jesus or to Christianity.

WRONG. A majority of them were NOT diests. They were book signed and declared members of various CHRISTIAN denominations. Presbyterian, methodist, luthern, etc, etc.

Would you care to post a link to a list of all the Founding Fathers and their avowed memberships, especially their avowed and active memberships at the time the Constitution and Bill of Rights were framed? It's unlikely that many of them were signed members of the Episcopalian Church, since they had eschewed their ties to any European churches, and the Episcopalian Church in America didn't exist until two years after the Constitution was written. The Methodists arrived in 1766, but until the 19th century, the only congregations were in New York and Maryland. The Lutherans arrived in Pennsylvania in 1748, in New York in 1784, and in North Carolina in 1803, but until the later 19th century was almost exclusively limited to immigrants of Germanic or Scandinavian origins. The only Protestant denomination likely to have Founding Fathers as signed members would be the Presbyterians. And being signed members of a Christian denomination certainly does nothing to preclude them from having drifted to Deism. More than one of the Founding Fathers openly admitted to Deism (Benajamin Franklin quoted in this thread; Thomas Payne also openly admitted it; and I believe Washington also affirmed his Deism (or perhaps it was Unitarianism, I don't recall) -- at the very least, Jefferson confirms Washington's disbelief in Christianity).

Another tidbit, from an 1831 sermon by an Episcopalian minister, Reverend Bird Wilson: "Among all of our Presidents, from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism." The Unitarians were a non-sectarian sort of "eclectic religion," you might say.

One interesting statistic I found (not sure how accurate it is) said that at the time of the signing of the DoI, only 7% of the population of the 13 colonies belonged to any formal church or denomination.

Not a law per se, but you notice the ONE DAY govt offices arent open is SUndays.

Irrelevant. They are also closed on Saturdays. Unless you wish to argue that there are two separate Sabbaths, then it doesn't help you much.

You only listed 9 of the 10

You're right, I missed one. My bad.

 

[007]

I dug it up and posted it because another poster had specifically requested it.

Whatever then...

 

[LuvRPgrl]

I didn't say otherwise. I said that their references to Jesus were usually in reference to his teachings about life, interaction, and social character, not about the mythical and miraculous elements of his life.
.

Virtually all of the references I have seen, but since the writings are so voluminous, Im sure Ive only read a very small percentage of them, the references were giving Jesus credit, and relying on Him for guidance, wisdom and strength.

 

[Nightwish]

Virtually all of the references I have seen, but since the writings are so voluminous, Im sure Ive only read a very small percentage of them, the references were giving Jesus credit, and relying on Him for guidance, wisdom and strength.

And in most cases, those were public expressions, reflecting the form and sentiment of the population they represented. It doesn't necessarily confer that everyone who prayed in such a manner truly believed in the resurrection (how many thousands today pray to a God they don't fully believe in?). Some of them very explicitly said they didn't. But what they said in their private letters amongst each other, and what they said in public forums often differed, because although they had fled the oppression of the Church, the basic teachings of that Church still informed the mindset of the population, and by those teachings, their Deism was heretical and punishable. Remember, these men were living during the Inquisition (which took place here, too) and less than a century after the Salem trials. They knew quite well just how vicious a population can be when faced with a departure from mainstream Christian belief.

 

[Emmett]

DAMN, you guys can do some fast research! I'm very impressed! I just wish I could understand what point you were trying to make.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

I didn't say otherwise. I said that their references to Jesus were usually in reference to his teachings about life, interaction, and social character, not about the mythical and miraculous elements of his life.

What Christian denomination are you aware of that only considers the New Testament to be their Bible?.

None. Nor did I say the NT is "their only Bible"

Again, you're not countering anything that I've actually said. I didn't say they made no references to Jesus or to Christianity..

Would you care to post a link to a list of all the Founding Fathers and their avowed memberships, especially their avowed and active memberships at the time the Constitution and Bill of Rights were framed? It's unlikely that many of them were signed members of the Episcopalian Church, since they had eschewed their ties to any European churches, and the Episcopalian Church in America didn't exist until two years after the Constitution was written. The Methodists arrived in 1766, but until the 19th century, the only congregations were in New York and Maryland. The Lutherans arrived in Pennsylvania in 1748, in New York in 1784, and in North Carolina in 1803, but until the later 19th century was almost exclusively limited to immigrants of Germanic or Scandinavian origins. The only Protestant denomination likely to have Founding Fathers as signed members would be the Presbyterians. And being signed members of a Christian denomination certainly does nothing to preclude them from having drifted to Deism. More than one of the Founding Fathers openly admitted to Deism (Benajamin Franklin quoted in this thread; Thomas Payne also openly admitted it; and I believe Washington also affirmed his Deism (or perhaps it was Unitarianism, I don't recall) -- at the very least, Jefferson confirms Washington's disbelief in Christianity).

Another tidbit, from an 1831 sermon by an Episcopalian minister, Reverend Bird Wilson: "Among all of our Presidents, from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism." The Unitarians were a non-sectarian sort of "eclectic religion," you might say..

IT is not certain what Washingtons beliefs were. His adopted daughter vehemently claimed he was a Christian.

One interesting statistic I found (not sure how accurate it is) said that at the time of the signing of the DoI, only 7% of the population of the 13 colonies belonged to any formal church or denomination..

Irrelevant. They are also closed on Saturdays. Unless you wish to argue that there are two separate Sabbaths, then it doesn't help you much..

Many govt agencies are open on saturdays. My local DMV is, but NEVER on Sundays.
Anyways, Im not gonna spend the time right now looking up their prescribed religions, as you say, even if I do, you will continue to claim they drifted towards diesm, yet you provide no links when in fact, you ask that I do.

The discussion and claim of the laws and govt being totally secular, and of a "seperation of church and state" existing at that time, in their thoughts, beliefs and deeds is the topic, and their proliferation of religous writings is proof that there was no seperation or secularism intent.

They often cited God as their source of wisdom, strength, Washington even said himself that if we ever try to remove religion from the govt, the govt will cease to exist.

You're right, I missed one. My bad.

 

[Nightwish]

Anyways, Im not gonna spend the time right now looking up their prescribed religions, as you say, even if I do, you will continue to claim they drifted towards diesm, yet you provide no links when in fact, you ask that I do.

Actually, I did. You might have missed it, but there was a rather lengthy post in which I pasted a few dozen quotes from various private letters of the founding fathers, some of them affirming their Deism, some of them addressing their beliefs about religion and church doctrine, and so on. If you click on the link in that post, there are a lot more quotes besides the ones I provided, and some of them directly address the question of church and state. In retrospect, I may not have posted the quote in which Payne confirms his Deism. That may have been from another website, as there were many, and I only linked to one, but a google search will bring up quite a few. Just google the words "Founding Fathers were Deists," and it'll bring up 721 hits if you google for the exact phrase (though some of them are rebuttals of the idea, which is not a bad thing).

The discussion and claim of the laws and govt being totally secular, and of a "seperation of church and state" existing at that time, in their thoughts, beliefs and deeds is the topic, and their proliferation of religous writings is proof that there was no seperation or secularism intent.

Actually, the proliferation of their writings proves unequivocally that there was a secularist intent, or at least the intent that Christianity should not be viewed as favored, endorsed, or the sole source of American morality and law.

They often cited God as their source of wisdom, strength, Washington even said himself that if we ever try to remove religion from the govt, the govt will cease to exist.

God and religion are not synonymous with Christianity. Though they came from a Christian foundation, they also went out of their way to recognize that not everyone who lives under their law is going to be of the same persuasion, and that no religion should be viewed as less or more than another. They were very clear on those points.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

And in most cases, those were public expressions, reflecting the form and sentiment of the population they represented. .

Oh, I get it. If you quote them, its proof of their deism. If I quote them, its merely a sentiment of the population they represented. If I prove they were book signed presbyterians, you simply claim maybe so, but they went to deism later. No matter what you are right. Have fun believing that.

It doesn't necessarily confer that everyone who prayed in such a manner truly believed in the resurrection (how many thousands today pray to a God they don't fully believe in?). Some of them very explicitly said they didn't. But what they said in their private letters amongst each other, and what they said in public forums often differed, because although they had fled the oppression of the Church, the basic teachings of that Church still informed the mindset of the population, and by those teachings, their Deism was heretical and punishable. Remember, these men were living during the Inquisition (which took place here, too) and less than a century after the Salem trials. They knew quite well just how vicious a population can be when faced with a departure from mainstream Christian belief.

Uh, just for your edification, the arguement was posed by MissleMan, claiming we are a SECULAR nation, and always have been. You are nitpicking on words and starting a debate that could go on forever. NO THANKS. The definitions of terms such as Christianity, what it meant then and now has no ends.

But the fact remains, we are a Christian nation, always have been. They believed in God, they werent Jewish or Muslims. George W even added on the end of the presidential oath "so help me God". Strictly his idea.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Actually, I did. You might have missed it, but there was a rather lengthy post in which I pasted a few dozen quotes from various private letters of the founding fathers, some of them affirming their Deism, some of them addressing their beliefs about religion and church doctrine, and so on. If you click on the link in that post, there are a lot more quotes besides the ones I provided, and some of them directly address the question of church and state. In retrospect, I may not have posted the quote in which Payne confirms his Deism. That may have been from another website, as there were many, and I only linked to one, but a google search will bring up quite a few. Just google the words "Founding Fathers were Deists," and it'll bring up 721 hits if you google for the exact phrase (though some of them are rebuttals of the idea, which is not a bad thing).


Actually, the proliferation of their writings proves unequivocally that there was a secularist intent, or at least the intent that Christianity should not be viewed as favored, endorsed, or the sole source of American morality and law.


God and religion are not synonymous with Christianity. Though they came from a Christian foundation, they also went out of their way to recognize that not everyone who lives under their law is going to be of the same persuasion, and that no religion should be viewed as less or more than another. They were very clear on those points.

Its all irrelevant.
And still, nobody can explain how the govt, govt's, could have been intended to be fully secular, when in fact those who created the govt's and wrote the laws also made it legal for STATE SPONSORED religions to exist. And Im NOT talking about DEIST religions. Im talking presbyterian, etc.

 

[Nightwish]

Oh, I get it. If you quote them, its proof of their deism. If I quote them, its merely a sentiment of the population they represented.

I must have missed where you quoted them. I only saw you handwave about "voluminous resources" in which they affirmed their adherence to Christian doctrine, but no quotes that I recall, nor links to any of those sources. Secondly, the most specific resource to which you pointed were public speeches from George Washington, whereas the quotes I provided are largely from their private writings, not from the public square. Hence the need for context, especially in light of the times.

If I prove they were book signed presbyterians, you simply claim maybe so, but they went to deism later. No matter what you are right. Have fun believing that.

You haven't proved they were book-signed anything. You merely asserted such, but offered no links. I think you're confusing "prove" with "assert." Are you familiar with the term "hand-waving?"

Uh, just for your edification, the arguement was posed by MissleMan, claiming we are a SECULAR nation, and always have been. You are nitpicking on words and starting a debate that could go on forever. NO THANKS. The definitions of terms such as Christianity, what it meant then and now has no ends.

Uh, you're the one who brought that up, not me.

But the fact remains, we are a Christian nation, always have been. They believed in God, they werent Jewish or Muslims. George W even added on the end of the presidential oath "so help me God". Strictly his idea.

What the Founding Fathers themselves believed is completely irrelevant. What beliefs informed their legislation is irrelevant. What reason one citizen or another had for voting in favor of specific legislation is irrelevant. What is relevant is the language of the legislation upon which our identity as a nation is formed, and what specific proclamations were made regarding how the nation should be identified. At no point did they specify that we were to be considered a Secular nation, but they did very explicitly state that the United States was not to be construed as a Christian nation. Christian and "religious" are not the same thing.

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

"... the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion ,,,"

"The United States is no more a Christian nation than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan one."

The Treaty of Tripoli is a legal document, which holds weight over any personal proclamations, though many of the personal proclamations affirm this position.

 

[Nightwish]

Its all irrelevant.
And still, nobody can explain how the govt, govt's, could have been intended to be fully secular, when in fact those who created the govt's and wrote the laws also made it legal for STATE SPONSORED religions to exist. And Im NOT talking about DEIST religions. Im talking presbyterian, etc.

I've never said it was fully secular, that was someone else. I said it was not founded with the intention of being a Christian nation. And what do you mean by "state sponsored" religions?

 

[MissileMan]

They often cited God as their source of wisdom, strength, Washington even said himself that if we ever try to remove religion from the govt, the govt will cease to exist.

Really? Got a link to this speech?