Trends in Political Values and Core Attitudes

[Skull Pilot]

what can i say... this post seems to suggest otherwise.

you were all bashing some guy as being on the government tit when he said he collected unemployment

my point was to correct the assumption that unemployment is a tax payer funded social program like other entitlements but it is not. it is funded through state and federal taxes paid by employers and not the average employee or john q public. so it is a social program for all where the onus for payment is forced upon a very small percentage of the population.

so again i say whay don't you argue that ALL of us pony up 6.2% of our gross income to help out the poor unemployed. after all isn't that the fair thing to do in a socialist minded program?

i don't see how you are saying that i am defending it at all

for the record it's a rip off that employers get saddled with

it takes money away from me that i could use to provide better benefits to my employees and possibly use to hire more people

 

[Shogun]

as a matter of fact, we were lampooning a fiscal conservative whose mantras don't seem to match his personal choices. Weather or not you want to try and seperate unemployment insurance from every other social program just because the people taxed are employers instead of the general population is neither here nor there. At the end of the day it is still JUST as much a social program as food stamps and is JUST as able to be demonized as worthless by those with your common modus operandi. Well, until one finds himself leaning of such a program for six months...


and, as a matter of fact, I've written more unemployment protest letters than you have teeth so spare me your trite little monkey dance about poor employers having to pay up. I'm fully aware of the cost of this social program.

 

[Skull Pilot]

as a matter of fact, we were lampooning a fiscal conservative whose mantras don't seem to match his personal choices. Weather or not you want to try and seperate unemployment insurance from every other social program just because the people taxed are employers instead of the general population is neither here nor there. At the end of the day it is still JUST as much a social program as food stamps and is JUST as able to be demonized as worthless by those with your common modus operandi. Well, until one finds himself leaning of such a program for six months...


and, as a matter of fact, I've written more unemployment protest letters than you have teeth so spare me your trite little monkey dance about poor employers having to pay up. I'm fully aware of the cost of this social program.

oh so you have had to write the checks to pay for it????

 

[Shogun]

no, I write protest letters to keep from having to pay MORE for it in the first place. Again, I am fully aware of the cost of unemployment insurance. Now, did you want to ask Bern if such things are necessary socialism or should we skip the middle man and sing "he's a jolly good fellow" because you can write a check?

 

[Shogun]

Ok, BERN, i'm all ears... mention again how necessary are social programs like unemployment in our American society..... Maybe Skull Pilot wants to pull up a chair and learn how to gel conservatism with socialism.

 

[midcan5]

Boy these socialistic conservatives have no sense of irony.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Ok, BERN, i'm all ears... mention again how necessary are social programs like unemployment in our American society..... Maybe Skull Pilot wants to pull up a chair and learn how to gel conservatism with socialism.

no thanks because unemployment is unnecessary

 

[midcan5]

no thanks because unemployment is unnecessary

Carried to this extreme so is divorce, marriage, regulations, vacations, swimming pools, canned goods, refrigerators .....

 

[Skull Pilot]

Carried to this extreme so is divorce, marriage, regulations, vacations, swimming pools, canned goods, refrigerators .....

add people to that list to make it complete

 

[Bern80]

Boy these socialistic conservatives have no sense of irony.

As I've told the others, I understand the appearance of irony when you insist upon applying inaccurate labels to help your argument.

 

[midcan5]

As I've told the others, I understand the appearance of irony when you insist upon applying inaccurate labels to help your argument.

Do you. The point is without social / government supports, society becomes a dog eat dog world, if that is the world you want, go for it, but in order for people to live through tragedy, bad luck, or what have you, some level of support is needed some of the time. That's a good thing in my world.

 

[Shogun]

Well then CLEAR IT UP FOR US BERN. don't just sit there and bleed allover the carpet, dude. Tell me, Midcan and Skull Pilot how necessary is some socialism peppered into our capitolist society. Come on, dude.. stop crying about being pigeon-holed and show your cards. I'm sure Skull Pilot will be interested in hearing about NECESSARY social programs from a fiscal conservative like yourself.

I mean.. WE are the ones who have ASSUMED that you'd rather nix these kinds of SOCIAL PROGRAMS, right? WE were the ones who erroneously GENERALIZED your position, eh?

 

[Bern80]

Do you. The point is without social / government supports, society becomes a dog eat dog world, if that is the world you want, go for it, but in order for people to live through tragedy, bad luck, or what have you, some level of support is needed some of the time. That's a good thing in my world.

I agree, have all along. Which is why I don't see why you thinke there is a this huge disagreement.

 

[Bern80]

mean.. WE are the ones who have ASSUMED that you'd rather nix these kinds of SOCIAL PROGRAMS, right? WE were the ones who erroneously GENERALIZED your position, eh?

Maybe there is hope for you. See above response to midcan.

 

[Taomon]

This is a year old but it is good news. It doesn't get much play in conservative MSM but that is because corporate greed is too large a factor in news today. Add to corporate greed fear of job loss or promotion and you quickly see why the fourth estate is such a tepid wimp of an institution.


Trends in Political Values and Core Attitudes

"Increased public support for the social safety net, signs of growing public concern about income inequality, and a diminished appetite for assertive national security policies have improved the political landscape for the Democrats as the 2008 presidential campaign gets underway.

At the same time, many of the key trends that nurtured the Republican resurgence in the mid-1990s have moderated, according to Pew's longitudinal measures of the public's basic political, social and economic values. The proportion of Americans who support traditional social values has edged downward since 1994, while the proportion of Americans expressing strong personal religious commitment also has declined modestly."


http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=312

The Republicans and the Reaganites have proven that the economy utopia that was promised was a haven of corruption. Who suffers? The working class. I was arguing the same points with screaming eagle on the Health Care as a Human Right thread http://www.usmessageboard.com/showthread.php?t=52725&page=6

 

[Foxfyre]

I agree, have all along. Which is why I don't see why you thinke there is a this huge disagreement.

When it comes to level of support--make that assistance or help in time of crisis--the difference is in the means. The devil is in the details and all that.

Put the support in the hands of the private sector and it is likely to be targeted at those who most need it.

Put the support in the hands of the government and it is likely to become an entitlement that confiscates more wealth from those who honorably earned and deserve it and gives it to freeloaders who didn't.

Unemployment insurance, for instance, is a positive thing when administered as it was originally intended just as FDIC, home owners, liability, auto, work comp, health, disability, life insurance etc. is a good thing as a hedge against the unexpected losses most of us will experience at some time or as a requirement to engage in certain activities that make us more of a risk to others. FUTA and SUTA insurance, however, was intended to be a pay as you go system with checks and balances and limitations. It is accepted voluntarily by employers who can choose to go into business or not. There is no shame in accepting benefits from practical programs that we willingly subscribed to or that were subscribed to by others on our behalf.

It becomes socialism only when the government confiscates your and my property to pay out more to individuals than the system was designed to take in and pay out.

 

[Shogun]

Maybe there is hope for you. See above response to midcan.

Indeed, I look forward to the next round of "abolish the handouts" then, BERN. I will enjoy watching you take the position that such things, like UHC, is necessary socialism.

good day, sir.

 

[Shogun]

It is accepted voluntarily by employers who can choose to go into business or not.




the fence riding is hilarious.

 

[Bern80]

Indeed, I look forward to the next round of "abolish the handouts" then, BERN. I will enjoy watching you take the position that such things, like UHC, is necessary socialism.

good day, sir.

Why, after me stating several times to the contrary, do you insist that is my position? I have never argued that UHC = socialsim either. Simply that it would be a bad idea.

I just don't understand how you think all the crap you've been spewing lately has any validity when it is based on your incorrect assumption of my position.

 

[Shogun]

WWJFKD, eh BERN?


So, what other social programs do you want to go on the record in supporting, BERN? Anything specific or shall we continue to play this litte cloak and dagger game of hide and go support you've got going on here while trying to rationalize personal behaviour?