Tropospheric Hot Spot- Why it does not exist...

[SSDD]

.and for the last time you f'ing idiot...heat is energy..

But heat has no meaning for a single atom or photon. It is a macroscopic quality only, a statistical description of a system of matter and photons.

Energy, whether it be from a single atom or a whole array of them does not move from cool objects to warmer objects...

And the second law doesn't just talk about heat....the second law governs all energy transfer without regard to the nature of the energy being transferred.

 

[mamooth]

Energy, whether it be from a single atom or a whole array of them does not move from cool objects to warmer objects..

Again, endless repetitions of "BECAUSE I SAY SO!" are not going to win you a Nobel, yet it's all you've got.

And the second law doesn't just talk about heat....the second law governs all energy transfer without regard to the nature of the energy being transferred.

Someone who also inhabits your bizarro-universe might care about the alternate physical laws at work there, but we here in this dimension have no interest in them.

 

[SSDD]

Again, endless repetitions of "BECAUSE I SAY SO!" are not going to win you a Nobel, yet it's all you've got.

I don't say so hairball...if you have a problem with this statement take it up with the physics department of Georgia State...

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature bject to a higher temperature object.

 

[ding]

Energy, whether it be from a single atom or a whole array of them does not move from cool objects to warmer objects..

Again, endless repetitions of "BECAUSE I SAY SO!" are not going to win you a Nobel, yet it's all you've got.

And the second law doesn't just talk about heat....the second law governs all energy transfer without regard to the nature of the energy being transferred.

Someone who also inhabits your bizarro-universe might care about the alternate physical laws at work there, but we here in this dimension have no interest in them.

He's right, it is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

 

[Wuwei]

Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature bject to a higher temperature object.

You are essentially saying that the second law as defined using entropy is wrong. Do you reject the entropy version?

Second Law of Thermodynamics: In any cyclic process the entropy will either increase or remain the same.

 

[SSDD]

[
You are essentially saying that the second law as defined using entropy is wrong. Do you reject the entropy version?

Second Law of Thermodynamics: In any cyclic process the entropy will either increase or remain the same.

In typical fashion, you only see what you believe makes your point and ignore the rest....In the first place, the statement applies to a closed system...where the system is in a steady state or a reversible process is occurring....

If you are not in a closed system, and an irreversible process is happening, then entropy always increases...and the critical bit of information that I am sure you are lacking is the FACT that ALL NATURAL PROCESSES ARE IRREVERSIBLE...

SECOND LAW

Any process either increases the entropy of the universe - or leaves it unchanged. Entropy is constant only in reversible processes which occur in equilibrium. All natural processes are irreversible.

http://web.pdx.edu/~bseipel/The Laws of Thermodynamic2.pdf

The second law of thermodynamics (the entropy law or law of entropy)

Heat can never pass spontaneously from a colder to a hotter body. As a result of this fact, natural processes that involve energy transfer must have one direction, and all natural processes are irreversible.

Laws of thermodynamics - Wikipedia

The second law is applicable to a wide variety of processes, reversible and irreversible. All natural processes are irreversible. Reversible processes are a useful and convenient theoretical fiction, but do not occur in nature.

 

[mamooth]

He's right, it is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow.

And as that's not happening according to AGW theory, what's the problem? The net heat flow is from warm to cold, hence the Second Law is satisfied.

Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Remember, heat is a macroscopic statistical quality. Heat has no meaning on the level of single atoms and photons. They are free to exchange energy however they want. They are not bound in any way by the Second Law, being that the second law only applies to net heat flow in collections of matter.

The physics field of Statistical Mechanics says you are totally wrong. Yet you declare know better than 140 years of well-established physics. Have you or SSDD written up your groundbreaking work in this field, showing how Statistical Mechanics is all wrong, so that you can collect your Nobel Prize?

 

[ding]

And as that's not happening according to AGW theory, what's the problem? The net heat flow is from warm to cold, hence the Second Law is satisfied.

Not the way you describe it. At least when describing the skin.

 

[mamooth]

I don't say so hairball...if you have a problem with this statement take it up with the physics department of Georgia State...

And they say you're full of shit.

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Again, "heat" and "temperature" have no meaning at the atomic level, hence atoms and photons are free to do whatever they damn please, unconstrained by your misreadings of the Second Law.

The Second Law is about 20 years older than the field of Statistical Mechanics. That "corrects" the original version of the Second Law, in the same way that relativity "corrects" Newtonian physics.

So, when you get a grasp on 140-year-old physics, come back and try again. Or just keep trying to use your mighty will to bend the laws of space and time to agree with you.

 

[SSDD]

Remember, heat is a macroscopic statistical quality. Heat has no meaning on the level of single atoms and photons. They are free to exchange energy however they want. They are not bound in any way by the Second Law, being that the second law only applies to net heat flow in collections of matter.

According to an unobservable, unmeasurable, untestable mathematical model...and nothing else.

 

[ding]

Remember, heat is a macroscopic statistical quality. Heat has no meaning on the level of single atoms and photons. They are free to exchange energy however they want. They are not bound in any way by the Second Law, being that the second law only applies to net heat flow in collections of matter.

The physics field of Statistical Mechanics says you are totally wrong. Yet you declare know better than 140 years of well-established physics. Have you or SSDD written up your groundbreaking work in this field, showing how Statistical Mechanics is all wrong, so that you can collect your Nobel Prize?

I didn't realize that getting a nobel prize was the standard I was aiming for. The very process you are describing is the reason we don't fully understand how the GHG effect works. We have more unknowns than we can solve.

I approach this from a different angle. I test your beliefs based upon what has happened in the past. From that perspective, your beliefs do not match reality. Why? There are more gases in the atmosphere than CO2 and CH4. The transfer of heat is not well understood. The timing is not well understood. The effect of water vapor is not well understood. The system is more complex and there is more we don't understand than we do understand.

My problem with all of this is the attempt to shut down debate and analysis. It is a group think herd mentality that is the antithesis of science. People like you are nazi's when it comes to this. The science is far from settled. The models are flawed. The models are not science. Garbage in equals garbage out. The driving force behind this "social movement" is emotion and politics, not science.

 

[Billy_Bob]

I don't say so hairball...if you have a problem with this statement take it up with the physics department of Georgia State...

And they say you're full of shit.

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Again, "heat" and "temperature" have no meaning at the atomic level, hence atoms and photons are free to do whatever they damn please, unconstrained by your misreadings of the Second Law.

The Second Law is about 20 years older than the field of Statistical Mechanics. That "corrects" the original version of the Second Law, in the same way that relativity "corrects" Newtonian physics.

So, when you get a grasp on 140-year-old physics, come back and try again. Or just keep trying to use your mighty will to bend the laws of space and time to agree with you.

"Again, "heat" and "temperature" have no meaning at the atomic level, hence atoms and photons are free to do whatever they damn please, unconstrained by your misreadings of the Second Law."

If this were true, then you have no idea what LWIR is capable of. You have no idea if it will create heat when re-emitted from CO2 or any other gas in our atmosphere. Your statement flat out falsifies the AGW theroy as you have no means to create heat that you can demonstrate.

Thanks for admitting that AGW is a lie and your pushing it from a political point of view only.

 

[SSDD]

Remember, heat is a macroscopic statistical quality. Heat has no meaning on the level of single atoms and photons. They are free to exchange energy however they want. They are not bound in any way by the Second Law, being that the second law only applies to net heat flow in collections of matter.

The physics field of Statistical Mechanics says you are totally wrong. Yet you declare know better than 140 years of well-established physics. Have you or SSDD written up your groundbreaking work in this field, showing how Statistical Mechanics is all wrong, so that you can collect your Nobel Prize?

I didn't realize that getting a nobel prize was the standard I was aiming for. The very process you are describing is the reason we don't fully understand how the GHG effect works. We have more unknowns than we can solve.

I approach this from a different angle. I test your beliefs based upon what has happened in the past. From that perspective, your beliefs do not match reality. Why? There are more gases in the atmosphere than CO2 and CH4. The transfer of heat is not well understood. The timing is not well understood. The effect of water vapor is not well understood. The system is more complex and there is more we don't understand than we do understand.

My problem with all of this is the attempt to shut down debate and analysis. It is a group think herd mentality that is the antithesis of science. People like you are nazi's when it comes to this. The science is far from settled. The models are flawed. The models are not science. Garbage in equals garbage out. The driving force behind this "social movement" is emotion and politics, not science.

Bu....Bu......BBUUUUU....Bbuuuuu.....But the science is settled....just ask any cult member..it is settled and has been settled since they got the idea that they could crush capitalism by demonizing CO2.

 

[SSDD]

I don't say so hairball...if you have a problem with this statement take it up with the physics department of Georgia State...

And they say you're full of shit.

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Again, "heat" and "temperature" have no meaning at the atomic level, hence atoms and photons are free to do whatever they damn please, unconstrained by your misreadings of the Second Law.

The Second Law is about 20 years older than the field of Statistical Mechanics. That "corrects" the original version of the Second Law, in the same way that relativity "corrects" Newtonian physics.

So, when you get a grasp on 140-year-old physics, come back and try again. Or just keep trying to use your mighty will to bend the laws of space and time to agree with you.

"Again, "heat" and "temperature" have no meaning at the atomic level, hence atoms and photons are free to do whatever they damn please, unconstrained by your misreadings of the Second Law."

If this were true, then you have no idea what LWIR is capable of. You have no idea if it will create heat when re-emitted from CO2 or any other gas in our atmosphere. Your statement flat out falsifies the AGW theroy as you have no means to create heat that you can demonstrate.

Thanks for admitting that AGW is a lie and your pushing it from a political point of view only.

They don't seem to grasp the idea that heat is energy...and it exists in a measurable form...and it is real clear that they are under the impression that the second law of thermodynamics only applies to certain forms of energy rather than energy in any form.

 

[Billy_Bob]

Remember, heat is a macroscopic statistical quality. Heat has no meaning on the level of single atoms and photons. They are free to exchange energy however they want. They are not bound in any way by the Second Law, being that the second law only applies to net heat flow in collections of matter.

The physics field of Statistical Mechanics says you are totally wrong. Yet you declare know better than 140 years of well-established physics. Have you or SSDD written up your groundbreaking work in this field, showing how Statistical Mechanics is all wrong, so that you can collect your Nobel Prize?

I didn't realize that getting a nobel prize was the standard I was aiming for. The very process you are describing is the reason we don't fully understand how the GHG effect works. We have more unknowns than we can solve.

I approach this from a different angle. I test your beliefs based upon what has happened in the past. From that perspective, your beliefs do not match reality. Why? There are more gases in the atmosphere than CO2 and CH4. The transfer of heat is not well understood. The timing is not well understood. The effect of water vapor is not well understood. The system is more complex and there is more we don't understand than we do understand.

My problem with all of this is the attempt to shut down debate and analysis. It is a group think herd mentality that is the antithesis of science. People like you are nazi's when it comes to this. The science is far from settled. The models are flawed. The models are not science. Garbage in equals garbage out. The driving force behind this "social movement" is emotion and politics, not science.

Bu....Bu......BBUUUUU....Bbuuuuu.....But the science is settled....just ask any cult member..it is settled and has been settled since they got the idea that they could crush capitalism by demonizing CO2.

"they got the idea that they could crush capitalism by demonizing CO2"

Sadly this has been the UN's dream for decade's.. The IPCC was just a tool to accomplish it. Now it has been exposed and discredited.

 

[SSDD]

"they got the idea that they could crush capitalism by demonizing CO2"

Sadly this has been the UN's dream for decade's.. The IPCC was just a tool to accomplish it. Now it has been exposed and discredited.

That discredit needs to be hammered home 24/7 for a few years so that all but the true wackos, who will never admit that they have been duped, get the idea...AGW needs to be put on the shelf with eugenics, and phrenology, and bad humours where it belongs...

 

[Crick]

Good luck gents, but I think the only thing that's going to be hammered down is you two and your utterly feckless leader

 

[SSDD]

Sometimes crick...faith just isn't enough...these government scientists are going to be asked to provide the evidence upon which they have been basing their cries of impending disaster.....and when asked, they are going to have just about as much actual evidence as you do when I ask for a single shred of observed, measured, quantified, empirical evidence supporting the AGW hypothesis...which is zero....they aren't going to be able to fool the PhD level skeptics who will be asking the questions...it is going to set back public trust in science for a very long time...

 

[polarbear]

He's right, it is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow.

And as that's not happening according to AGW theory, what's the problem? The net heat flow is from warm to cold, hence the Second Law is satisfied.

Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Remember, heat is a macroscopic statistical quality. Heat has no meaning on the level of single atoms and photons. They are free to exchange energy however they want. They are not bound in any way by the Second Law, being that the second law only applies to net heat flow in collections of matter.

The physics field of Statistical Mechanics says you are totally wrong. Yet you declare know better than 140 years of well-established physics. Have you or SSDD written up your groundbreaking work in this field, showing how Statistical Mechanics is all wrong, so that you can collect your Nobel Prize?[/QUHeat has no meaning on the level of single atoms and photons. They are free to exchange energy however they want. They are not bound in any way by the Second Law, OTE]
"

He's right, it is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow.

And as that's not happening according to AGW theory, what's the problem? The net heat flow is from warm to cold, hence the Second Law is satisfied.

Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Remember, heat is a macroscopic statistical quality. Heat has no meaning on the level of single atoms and photons. They are free to exchange energy however they want. They are not bound in any way by the Second Law, being that the second law only applies to net heat flow in collections of matter.

The physics field of Statistical Mechanics says you are totally wrong. Yet you declare know better than 140 years of well-established physics. Have you or SSDD written up your groundbreaking work in this field, showing how Statistical Mechanics is all wrong, so that you can collect your Nobel Prize?

Whaaat?

"Remember, heat is a macroscopic statistical quality. Heat has no meaning on the level of single atoms and photons. They are free to exchange energy however they want. They are not bound in any way by the Second Law"
Reading stuff like this is even more entertaining than watching Chris Mathews on MSNBC.
We all know that "Heat" is energy and is measured as such. So now you claim that energy has no meaning at the atomic level and that the equation E= h*c/ λ what the energy quantum of a photon is can not be applied when arguing physics in the wonderland of AGW pissics.

You also claim:" They are free to exchange energy however they want. They are not bound in any way by the Second Law"
That would mean that an atom which is in the ground state can transfer energy to another one which is in the excited state.
Do tell me what kind of energy that would be and if you can then you should share that with the scientists at the Princeton Plasma Research Lab.
They are wasting their time to turn minute amounts of matter into a plasma so that they can fuse it, but it takes an enormous amount of energy.
With the insights you gained from AGW you can easily achieve that by pumping lots of energy from lots of atoms in the ground state to fewer atoms which are in the excited state to excite them even more till they turn into a plasma.

 

[mamooth]

Reading stuff like this is even more entertaining than watching Chris Mathews on MSNBC.

When one of my points is that every single denier is just a brainwashed member of the right-wing-fringe loser political cult, reinforcing that point by openly weeping about those awful liberals and socialists probably isn't your best choice of tactics. Those who know science talk about the science. Those who don't, they cry about politics.

We all know that "Heat" is energy and is measured as such. So now you claim that energy has no meaning at the atomic level and that the equation E= h*c/ λ what the energy quantum of a photon is can not be applied when arguing physics in the wonderland of AGW pissics.

No, I said "heat" and "temperature" have no such meaning for a single atom. It's only your claim I said "energy".

How about you respond to what I say, instead of what you wish I'd said? You'll look less dishonest that way.

You also claim:" They are free to exchange energy however they want. They are not bound in any way by the Second Law"

So when are you writing your paper to explain how the entire field of Statistic Mechanics is totally wrong?

Explain to us exactly what physical mechanism prevents a "hot" atom from radiating a photon towards a "cold" atom. Be precise, no vague handwaving. This ought to be good. Do you perhaps subscribe to SSDD's "intelligent atoms and photons" theory?

That would mean that an atom which is in the ground state can transfer energy to another one which is in the excited state.

WTF does that have to do with the Second Law and heat flow? I'll answer that. Nothing. It's just another of your loopy deflections. No matter what the topic is, you're throw in some deranged interpretation of some science bit you read somewhere that isn't related to the topic at all, and then declare victory.

The reason people don't respond to you isn't because your brilliance has overwhelmed them. It's because your gibberish is never worth the mental effort it takes to decode it. Nobody cares about what special crank pseudoscience you came up with today.