Trump May Not be a White Supremacist but He is In Fact a Bigot

[martybegan]

In any legal proceeding harm has to be established.

Great! So if your religious beliefs dictate that God forgives all, then you cannot prove harm by baking a cake because...GOD FORGIVES THAT!

They only way you could prove harm is if you say God doesn't forgive. But the entire core tenet of your faith is that God does forgive and Jesus died for your sins. So where's the harm? Nowhere. The "harm" is just bigots being faced with their own bigotry, and feeling bad about it. Your feelings being hurt doesn't prove harm. So it's not even about religion. It's about your prejudices against homosexuality. And that comes from your own sexual repression and insecurity.

Doesn't quite work like that. what's between God and the Baker isn't our concern, however government involving itself in butt hurt IS a big concern.

 

[martybegan]

I already refuted most of them 5 pages ago, you keep bashing your head against the wall.

No you didn't. IN fact, you haven't even addressed the central point of my argument which is that your religious beliefs are bullshit because you can't possibly be harmed when the God you worship is supposed to forgive your sins.

Unless...you're now saying God doesn't forgive your sins. In which case, why the fuck do you worship God????

How is that a "talking point" that you've "refuted"? Kinda seems like a giant knife in the heart of your belief system to me. I mean you are here saying the thing marketed most heavily by your faith isn't actually true; that God doesn't forgive. And if God doesn't forgive, why the fuck do you worship God in the first place????

I don't know, and I won't find out until I die, just like the rest of us. And no, you can't restrict Religion to be behind walls or doors, deal with it snowflake.

You don't get to skirt away from this that easily. The central pillar of your faith is that God forgives you for your sins. So if baking a cake is a "sin", but God forgives the sin, then how are you harmed? That simple quesiton is one no one of faith can answer. Because it undermines the concept of your faith completely.

You say baking a cake "harms" these people, but how? Their God is supposed to forgive their sins, right? So how can they possibly be harmed by baking a cake if their God forgives their sins? Obviously, they cannot be harmed, and all this is just an exercise in the justification of bigotry.

They are not my religious beliefs, they are the bakers. Again All I am defending is their free exercise. You keep arguing the wrong point, over and over.

 

[The Derp]

The "sophistry" here is your defining the issue as though your opinion is fact.

It's not my opinion that you say God forgives. That's what you're saying. So if you are a Christian because God forgives and Jesus died for your sins, then how exactly is someone harmed by baking a gay cake?

 

[The Derp]

I get the idea that you hate Christianity and Christians by your constant need to belittle and insult them, not to mention your desire to jail them, and to deprive them of their right to religious freedom.

Again, I am singling out Christians in this thread because it's Christians who say one thing about their faith as it relates to gay cakes, then say the complete opposite in the same breath.

God forgives and that's why you're a Christian...yet God doesn't forgive baking a cake. So then God doesn't forgive, which would mean the reason you are a Christian is a lie.

I have not asked you to "suspend disbelief".

Yes you have. You've asked me to suspend my disbelief to accommodate your belief in God, A), and B) you're also asking me to suspend disbelief that God forgives except when it comes to baking gay cakes.

You SHOULD be able to respect the rights of people you disagree with. If you are not a bad person.

This isn't a religious rights issue, this is about inherent contradictions in the faith you are using as the pillar of your anti-gay cake argument.

No, because you are so full of hate.

You won't even talk about that contradiction. It's like you're allergic to it. You evangelize people should be Christians because God will forgive them for their sins...but then you say God won't forgive the "sin" of baking a gay cake. So how is that bigotry not a complete contradiction of your faith?

 

[The Derp]

Doesn't quite work like that. what's between God and the Baker isn't our concern, however government involving itself in butt hurt IS a big concern.

Ah, but it is of my concern if I'm the one being discriminated against. Secondly, what of the forgiveness contradiction? You expect me to believe God forgives your sins, but doesn't forgive your sins. So the marketing you do for your faith is false advertising, then, isn't it?

 

[The Derp]

They are not my religious beliefs, they are the bakers. Again All I am defending is their free exercise. You keep arguing the wrong point, over and over.

So these bakers then don't believe God forgives their sins? So then why are they Christians?

And no, the point I am arguing is the one that directly relates to the "harm" these bakers claim by baking a gay cake. If their God forgives all sins, why doesn't their God forgive them for baking a gay cake?

And you're the one representing their argument on this thread, so their religion is your religion.

 

[martybegan]

Doesn't quite work like that. what's between God and the Baker isn't our concern, however government involving itself in butt hurt IS a big concern.

Ah, but it is of my concern if I'm the one being discriminated against. Secondly, what of the forgiveness contradiction? You expect me to believe God forgives your sins, but doesn't forgive your sins. So the marketing you do for your faith is false advertising, then, isn't it?

You aren't the one being discriminated against, you are the one bitching about one person's butt hurt being soooo much greater than other's that the government has to get involved. Quite silly.

Again, not my faith.

 

[martybegan]

They are not my religious beliefs, they are the bakers. Again All I am defending is their free exercise. You keep arguing the wrong point, over and over.

So these bakers then don't believe God forgives their sins? So then why are they Christians?

And no, the point I am arguing is the one that directly relates to the "harm" these bakers claim by baking a gay cake. If their God forgives all sins, why doesn't their God forgive them for baking a gay cake?

And you're the one representing their argument on this thread, so their religion is your religion.

Who knows and who cares? Some Christian sects believe forgiveness can only come from God itself, and some of those have a very cranky version of God.

I don;t care about forgiveness, My concern is only over government force. Find someone who actually believes in something similar to the bakers to have that argument.

 

[The Derp]

You've stated that you don't want them to "worship" in public. IF that wish of yours was enforced, that would be denying them their Right to Religious Freedom.

How so? You need to be in public to pray and have faith? If God universally forgives, what does it matter? You're saying God doesn't forgive? Well that runs in the face of how Christianity is being marketed today. The only BS is from you clowns who say God forgives except when God doesn't. Yet you are a Christian specifically because God forgives. That's the whole fucking point. How come I have to explain your faith to you? Because you're a bigot. You just hate gay people and are seeking any way you can to justify your bigotry. But that's progress because at least you recongize the inherent hideousness of your position, which is why you have to make excuses and allowances for it. You're not as clever as you think.

Your overly sensitive feelings do not trump their right to Religious Freedom.

How is not baking a cake "religious freedom"?

YOur cutting of my phrase out of context does not change the fact that you are the one that ignored the fact that Marty had already addressed your position and you failed to reply to that, and instead just re asserted your position.That's a logical fallacy and your post is invalid.

I quoted your post 100% accurately. So you don't get to try to skirt away on that. Secondly, no, Marty McFuckup didn't address my position because my position is that your faith is inherently flawed if you're saying baking a cake isn't something God will forgive, despite evangelizing your faith that God forgives you no matter what. That shit is the fallacy here. And I think you even recognize that, which is why you exercise sophistry.

Mmm, no. If it were not True, then perhaps, "insecurity" might be a reason I said it.

No, you said it because you're full of shit. That's why you said it.

But your claim that "insecurity" is the reason, is just you lying.

Well, since we know God forgives all, according to your dogma, then God will forgive the gays for being gay, and the baker for baking a gay cake. But you're saying these people are harmed by baking these gay cakes. How are they harmed? Because their God won't forgive them? So if their God won't forgive them for that, then why are they saying God forgives? And if that contradiction is ignored, the only thing left is the bigotry and that bigotry comes from repressed sexuality and insecurity.

THe obvious reason I said it, was because it was true, and I wanted to laugh at you and your debating skills, or lack there off.

Nothing you've said it true...just juvenile attempts to justify inherent contradictions in the argument, then running away from those contradictions when light is shone upon them.

 

[The Derp]

Got it. YOu disagree with Christian Dogma.

Two things:

1. At least you're now admitting it's dogma. That's a good first step.
2. It's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with the inherent contradiction in their argument. There is only acceptance of that contradiction or denial of it.

You seem to be denying the contradiction within that dogma, rightfully so because it undermines your argument on their behalf. So you keep saying I don't agree with them. What is there to agree with? God forgives your sins, and God doesn't forgive your sins. Where is the point of agreement/disagreement there?

 

[The Derp]

Noting in that implies any loss of Right to Religious Freedom by Christians.

Right, they can worship as they want. But stretching the bounds of what "worship" means is where my point of contention lies. That, and the inherent contradiction within the argument itself and I'm going to destroy it in three sentences;

1. They're Christians because they believe God forgives and Jesus died for their sins.
2. They say that baking a gay cake causes harm to their religious beliefs.
3. But their religious beliefs maintain that God forgives, so where's the harm?

A religious argument destroyed in three sentences.

 

[The Derp]

You lefties fined the shit out of some one for not baking a cake.

It wasn't leftists, it was the courts. And rightly so. The fine was too lenient as far as I'm concerned.

That victimizing them.

They made themselves victims when they pretended there was a religious basis for their bigotry.

And you are open about wanting to deprive them of the right to practice their religion openly in public.

Explain how baking a cake is "practicing religion". Baking a cake is practicing baking. Secondly, I thought their God forgives them...so how are they harmed by something their God forgives?

 

[martybegan]

Noting in that implies any loss of Right to Religious Freedom by Christians.

Right, they can worship as they want. But stretching the bounds of what "worship" means is where my point of contention lies. That, and the inherent contradiction within the argument itself and I'm going to destroy it in three sentences;

1. They're Christians because they believe God forgives and Jesus died for their sins.
2. They say that baking a gay cake causes harm to their religious beliefs.
3. But their religious beliefs maintain that God forgives, so where's the harm?

A religious argument destroyed in three sentences.

Still arguing the wrong point.

 

[The Derp]

You aren't the one being discriminated against

If I'm gay then I am. So now at least you've admitted what they're doing is discrimination. So on top of you admitting that, and Correll admitting it's "dogma", what case do you have between you? Dogmatic discrimination is what you are saying they do. All to avoid what? God's wrath at baking a cake? I thought God forgives sins...is that all bullshit?

 

[The Derp]

Again, not my faith.

You're here arguing on their behalf, so it becomes your faith and just because you realized that it's a shit belief system now doesn't give you license to skate away from culpability for your defense of them.

 

[The Derp]

Who knows and who cares?

Well, those Christians screeching "harm" care, and I care because their dogma is discrimination. So now it's obvious what you're doing; you're trying to give yourself an "out" because you don't want to have to answer for the whole forgiveness contradiction. What a fucking coward.

Some Christian sects believe forgiveness can only come from God itself, and some of those have a very cranky version of God.

But ultimately, their God forgives because that's the whole reason Jesus died on the cross. So here we have an attempt by you to shift the goalposts in order to escape an argument you lost. If they're not Christians, then they cannot claim Christianity as their defense of bigotry. And forgiveness can only come from God itself is an impossible standard to prove. So it's not a legitimate defense. How do they know if God forgives them? Isn't that whole principle inherent in Christianity? That God forgives no matter what. That's what Christianity is. If you're saying that isn't the case, then I think a class-action lawsuit against organized religion is in order because it's been deceptively marketed.

I don;t care about forgiveness, My concern is only over government force. Find someone who actually believes in something similar to the bakers to have that argument.

This isn't about you, despite you desperately trying to make it so. You are concerned about "government force", but notice how vague that phrase is. That's because you don't give this subject much thought, because you're not a thoughtful person to begin with. Forgiveness means everything because that's where the "harm" supposedly comes from; God not forgiving them for baking a gay cake. But if God forgives all sins, then how is anyone harmed by baking a gay cake? They're not. So all this shit you're saying is justification for bigotry because you are a bigot yourself.

 

[The Derp]

Still arguing the wrong point.

Without the concept of God's forgiveness, there is no basis of harm from those claiming as such to their "religious views". So the forgiveness thing is the thing we should be talking about because they maintain they cannot bake a gay cake because doing so causes harm. The "harm" is the belief that God won't forgive them for doing so. However, the entire point of their faith is that their God forgives all and Jesus died for your sins. So since God forgives all and Jesus died for your sins, how exactly are your religious beliefs "harmed" by baking a cake?

 

[The Derp]

THat's an interesting claim, that a religious belief has to be proven before it is covered by Freedom of Religion.

Yes, because otherwise you could just do anything you want and pretend that it's a religious belief. Which is what these Christians are doing here.

And it's not about being "proven", it's about proving harm to your religious beliefs. Religious beliefs that dictate the deity worshiped forgives you of your sins, absolves you of guilt, and whose son died for you. If you're now saying all that is bullshit, then all religious claims based on that dogma are bullshit too.

Care to support that claim, with a link to a law or a ruling?

Loving v. Virginia.

 

[The Derp]

I saw nothing addressing whether discrimination was easy or hard to prove, on topic at all.

Discrimination is very easy to prove. You all even admit you're discriminating, but you pretend it's OK because of your religion. A religion that seems rife with contradictions that undermine your case for discrimination. So you just avoid it like the whiny little bitches you are.

 

[The Derp]

You state that your acceptance of their opinion is not the issue, and then immediately explain why you disagree with their opinion, as though that is relevant.

Sooooo, it's an opinion that God forgives your sins? And it's my opinion? No. It's your dogma that says that. So if God forgives your sins, why wouldn't God forgive baking a gay cake?