Andylusion
Platinum Member
First off, the only way that employers would increase wages, is if they can't fill positions.
If American workers fill all the jobs of immigrant workers, then wages will not increase.
Second, back in the late 1990s, I was working at Wendy's and a lady came in, and told us she only intended to work long enough to give back on welfare. She even told us the date when she qualified again, and sure enough didn't show up anymore.
This is going to happen whether there are immigrants to take those jobs, or not. As long as we pay people to not work, many millions of people are not going to work.
Third, I'm not sure what cost to government you are referring to, other than individual state governments. If California wants to give money to illegals, that's their problem, and their taxes.
But at the Federal level, the largest funding is Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid, which no illegal has access to. Yet illegals still pay state level sales tax, and property taxes, which offset the costs of all government services.
Now it doesn't cover all costs, that's true. So deporting would reduce government expenses slightly, but not nearly enough than the loss of economic production.
Yes they could take their production back to Mexico, but so could all immigrants in the US, which accounts for the vast majority of the entire population of this country. That's not a good argument. If it's true for them, it's true for you.
Lastly, I think you greatly underestimate the damage this could do to the economy.
Look at Japan. One of the biggest reason they have been in a nearly 20 year stagnation, is because of their falling population levels.
With more and more people retiring, and fewer and fewer young to take their place, the cost on the tax payer, to pay for retirement benefits, is destructive at best. And that's being nice.
For example property prices have crashed in Japan. Japan never had the property bubble most of the world had, because housing prices have been falling for over 15 years. Basically since 1992, housing prices have fallen. And not just in suburbs, or in rural, but even in major urban centers.
In Tokyo itself, property values have fallen by more than 75%.
Why? Because the population has fallen. The only reason the house you own, has any value whatsoever, is because every year there are more people, and people need places to live, and every new couple looking for a home, is more demand for housing. That pushes up prices, which pushes up investment.
In Tokyo, they don't have this. Every year there are fewer couples looking for homes.
Japan’s Growing Number of Ghost Towns and the Reasons Behind It
Entire towns and villages that existed for 50 years, have dried up and blown away.
But that's just what you can see externally. What you don't see is that the consumer demand in Japan has dropped with the population. It's easy to see empty building, but harder to see the slump in consumer demand. Fewer people, means fewer consumers. You can clearly see that as the population growth started dropping in the 1990s, the increase in consumer demand also started leveling off. In fact, for the past 5 years, consumer demand is almost flat. As the population declines faster, I would not be too surprised if demand growth were to go negative.
Why am I pointing all this out?
Because if we had eliminated immigration in the 1970s, our population would be falling right now. If we stopped immigration prior to the 1970s, our population would be falling years ago. If we stop immigration today, the population will start falling in 2030. If we stop immigration, and deport 11 million people.... Hard to say. Could be in just a few years time.
Then we'll be in economic stagnation just like Japan. With one minor difference. Our economy is the crutch that has held Japan steady during it's stagnation. What economy anywhere in the world, is going to be our crutch?
If American workers fill all the jobs of immigrant workers, then wages will not increase.
If you have 10 million illegal aliens and 10 million Americans competing for 10 million jobs, wages will rise when there are no illegal aliens competing for those jobs, even if every single job is filled.
This is going to happen whether there are immigrants to take those jobs, or not. As long as we pay people to not work, many millions of people are not going to work.
Yes, we need to reform welfare and reverse the massive expansion of the rolls that occurred under Obama.
Third, I'm not sure what cost to government you are referring to, other than individual state governments.
State and local governments bear a heavy cost due to illegal aliens.
If California wants to give money to illegals, that's their problem, and their taxes.
Sure. And after the illegals go home, California can give money to someone else.
Yet illegals still pay state level sales tax, and property taxes, which offset the costs of all government services.
That's some stunningly bad math you have there.
Now it doesn't cover all costs, that's true.
Not even close.
Yes they could take their production back to Mexico, but so could all immigrants in the US, which accounts for the vast majority of the entire population of this country
All immigrants make up well more than 50% of our population?
Please, share your calculations.
For example property prices have crashed in Japan. Japan never had the property bubble most of the world had,
You must be very young.
Jobs are not static. And Americans are not competing for them. As more people are employed, and more people are buying and consuming, more jobs are created. You eliminate 11 million consumers, jobs will disappear.
I would need more evidence of this 'heavy' cost. Some cost possibly, depending more on the state level laws in place. But even there, the more generous the state level laws are, it's more likely that US citizens taking advantage of them, create a far greater burden than any illegals.
The only exceptions, are left-wing backward states like California.
It's not bad math. It's documented by several published papers.
All immigrants make up well more than 50% of our population?
Please, share your calculations.
Well it simply depends on where you draw the cut off line.
Do we say that everyone here before 1970s, is no longer an immigrant, and everyone that came here after the 1970s is? Or perhaps the 1960s? Or the 1940s? Or the 1900s? At what point do we consider people who immigrated here, and their offspring, to no longer be immigrants?
Because my family came from Germany, prior to the existence of the US. George Sebastian Eichelberger, came to the America, in about 1758. He died in 1777.
What's my point? We are nearly all immigrants. It just depends on where you put the cut off year. If you move the cut off year back far enough, 99% of the country is immigrants.
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There is some truth to this picture. Now that doesn't mean I am in favor of illegal immigration. Absolutely not. I want clear, simply, easy legal immigration.
But my point is, everyone here in this country is an immigrant. We just arbitrarily place a magic year, and claim everyone that came before X year, is no longer an immigrant.
I would need more evidence of this 'heavy' cost.
Here in Illinois, the average cost per elementary student is nearly $12000 per year.
How much sales taxes are these illegal aliens paying to cover that?
Well it simply depends on where you draw the cut off line.
Well that's easy, cut it off at birth.
If you were born elsewhere, you're an immigrant or an illegal alien.
Now work on that math and get back to me.
I thought IL schools were funded by property taxes.
Fine, how many illegals own homes?
Irrelevant. Unless they are all squatting... they are paying property taxes.
My family owns a rental unit. Who is paying the property taxes? Us? No. We charge enough money to the renters to cover not only our profit.... but enough to pay the property taxes.
If you doubt that, ask yourself who would have a rental, if they didn't make enough to cover the taxes? Answer no one. If our renters didn't pay a high enough rent to cover the property taxes, we would kick them out, and sell the unit.
If they are paying rent... they are paying property taxes.
If you still doubt that, then just ask yourself why rentals outside the suburbs where property taxes are a fraction of the price.... rental prices are also a fraction of the price? In fact, even within the suburbs this is true. If I drive across the highway, to Jefferson, and leave Hilliard, the property taxes drop, and so do rents, even though it's barely 2 miles from here.
All illegals pay rent, unless they are living on a farm... in which case the farm is paying rent, and they are likely not using much of city services. Or if they are living in shelters or something, which having worked at the shelter, I saw only Americans there. No immigrants.