Trump's pyrrhic victory: The US opts for path that can only lead to war

[candycorn]

Your ignorance of history is astounding.

It's just her lack of knowledge, it's inability to comprehend that a group of people, ANY group of people would not, do not value life the same way she does.

Yes, we had protestant Presidents that have started wars that have killed thousands of people around the world….

Americans specifically and Protestants in general have no moral high ground to preach peace.

Nobody wants war, at least no sane person that's ever fought in one. I've claimed no "high ground" for anyone. The United States Government is a violent , blood thirsty greedy money making machine.

On the contrary, it’s one of the most benevolent governments that has ever ruled for any amount of time. It spends more than it makes and it could make 50X what it chooses if it merely wanted to arm the world more than it has. It could make much more if it wished to charge for citizenship, protection, etc…

At times it is corrupted politically by Presidents who have no vision beyond the next election and a Congress that now sees it’s role as non-professional (see how many people running this year say they are a professional politician) and at best, a junior partner to the Executive.

Well, you've got the Company line down pat.

Pretty easy since it walks perfectly with history.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I truly don't see any evidence that Iran is still building their nuclear weapons. The inspectors can't find it.

Inspectors? What inspectors? Where?

The stuff Netanyahu said about Iran lying was from over a decade ago, prior to the JCPOA.

Wait, Iran lied? About nuclear facilities? Then how can you trust them now?

Because of the inspectors.

We're not sending inspectors, who is?

The IEAE. Verification and Monitoring in Iran | IAEA

Thanks for the link.

How do they monitor military sites?

I answered that already, best as I can.

The answer is, they don't.

 

[pismoe]

Yet if Doc had actually done all that, he would not be misrepresenting the religion the way he is.

What are there, something like a billion muslims in the world and he bases the actions of them on what about 2 or 3 dozen have done?

Gee, if you go by that, look at our federal and state prisons; full of protestants and Catholics... Does he apply the same calculus to their actions?

Well, to be fair, there are a whole lot more and two or three dozen Muslims who are jihadi extremists. But they are still a very small fraction of a percent of Muslims. People refuse to understand that one man's jihadi is another man's freedom fighter and that we have people screaming to set fire to all Muslims or all Iranians, same as Iranians have people screaming to destroy the US. This morning on the news, it was all about leaders warning and threatening each other, and I'm just waiting for all the air to finish blowing out of the balloon and see what we're left with.

It isn't the Muslim religion which is to blame. When we had the Crusades, it was a fight for territory between two giant powers, one which happened to be Christian, and one Muslim. Interestingly, they both wanted Jerusalem (sound familiar at all?) but please don't tell me it was all because the Pope wanted back the site of Jesus's crucifixion. The Muslims won because it was their home turf. No doubt they will again, but I'm hoping we can skip the Crusades part.

Your ignorance of history is astounding.

It's just her lack of knowledge, it's inability to comprehend that a group of people, ANY group of people would not, do not value life the same way she does.

Yes, we had protestant Presidents that have started wars that have killed thousands of people around the world….

Americans specifically and Protestants in general have no moral high ground to preach peace.

--------------------------------------- [BAIT PERHAPS] But the Protestants that i know are practical people and some people just need killing as a practical matter CCorn .

 

[pismoe]

i think that YOU hesitant types are just naive . Look at the work of muslims in the last week in many parts of the world OldLady .

Christians we’re responsible for similar types of violent actions during the crusades. It begs an interesting question, are the actions really religious or are they political?

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

 

[pismoe]

and off topic but since Protestants were mentioned . It looks like a Christian Baptist Pastor from TEXAS will be dedicating the new Embassy thats opening up on Monday in Jerusalem Israel . And [ouch] , thats gotta be a poke in the eye to muslim eh Candy ?? off topic but Protestants were mentioned so just saying Candy .

 

[OldLady]

Because of the inspectors.

We're not sending inspectors, who is?

The IEAE. Verification and Monitoring in Iran | IAEA

Thanks for the link.

How do they monitor military sites?

I answered that already, best as I can.

The answer is, they don't.

I know that. I did comment on that. Keep looking.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

We're not sending inspectors, who is?

The IEAE. Verification and Monitoring in Iran | IAEA

Thanks for the link.

How do they monitor military sites?

I answered that already, best as I can.

The answer is, they don't.

I know that. I did comment on that. Keep looking.

Yeah, you feel the IAEA is enough, but they can't inspect the hundreds of military sites.
So why do you trust the Iranians again?

 

[Slade3200]

i think that YOU hesitant types are just naive . Look at the work of muslims in the last week in many parts of the world OldLady .

Christians we’re responsible for similar types of violent actions during the crusades. It begs an interesting question, are the actions really religious or are they political?

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

 

[Slade3200]

The IEAE. Verification and Monitoring in Iran | IAEA

Thanks for the link.

How do they monitor military sites?

I answered that already, best as I can.

The answer is, they don't.

I know that. I did comment on that. Keep looking.

Yeah, you feel the IAEA is enough, but they can't inspect the hundreds of military sites.
So why do you trust the Iranians again?

I don’t think I’ve heard anybody in support of the IAEA say that they thought it was enough. Even those from the Obama admin have called it a stop gap measure to prevent Iran from developing a nuke but have acknowledged that much more needs to be dine to address the variety of other issues being propagated by Iran.

 

[OldLady]

The IEAE. Verification and Monitoring in Iran | IAEA

Thanks for the link.

How do they monitor military sites?

I answered that already, best as I can.

The answer is, they don't.

I know that. I did comment on that. Keep looking.

Yeah, you feel the IAEA is enough, but they can't inspect the hundreds of military sites.
So why do you trust the Iranians again?

Dang, you're lazy. I don't trust the Iranians. I trust our intelligence agencies who knew where the chemical weapons sites were in Syria, and know where the nuclear weapons sites are in NoKo. You think they wouldn't know it if Iran were still developing its nuclear weapons? Trump objects to the deal because (1) he feels we gave more than we got (2) he doesn't like the Sunset Clause and (3) he is pissed off at Iran's aggressive attitude in the Middle East generally. That is why Trump pulled out of the deal. There is no evidence that Iran is developing nuclear weapons or enhancing uranium on their military bases. Even US Secretary of Defense believes we should have stayed in the deal. If there was reason to believe Iran had gone off the reservation, he would have said so.

 

[Doc1]

It's just her lack of knowledge, it's inability to comprehend that a group of people, ANY group of people would not, do not value life the same way she does.

Yes, we had protestant Presidents that have started wars that have killed thousands of people around the world….

Americans specifically and Protestants in general have no moral high ground to preach peace.

Nobody wants war, at least no sane person that's ever fought in one. I've claimed no "high ground" for anyone. The United States Government is a violent , blood thirsty greedy money making machine.

On the contrary, it’s one of the most benevolent governments that has ever ruled for any amount of time. It spends more than it makes and it could make 50X what it chooses if it merely wanted to arm the world more than it has. It could make much more if it wished to charge for citizenship, protection, etc…

At times it is corrupted politically by Presidents who have no vision beyond the next election and a Congress that now sees it’s role as non-professional (see how many people running this year say they are a professional politician) and at best, a junior partner to the Executive.

Well, you've got the Company line down pat.

Pretty easy since it walks perfectly with history.

You still live in their created reality. The truth is overwhelmingly disturbing, but you aren't ready for that.

 

[Doc1]

i think that YOU hesitant types are just naive . Look at the work of muslims in the last week in many parts of the world OldLady .

Christians we’re responsible for similar types of violent actions during the crusades. It begs an interesting question, are the actions really religious or are they political?

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Thanks for the link.

How do they monitor military sites?

I answered that already, best as I can.

The answer is, they don't.

I know that. I did comment on that. Keep looking.

Yeah, you feel the IAEA is enough, but they can't inspect the hundreds of military sites.
So why do you trust the Iranians again?

Dang, you're lazy. I don't trust the Iranians. I trust our intelligence agencies who knew where the chemical weapons sites were in Syria, and know where the nuclear weapons sites are in NoKo. You think they wouldn't know it if Iran were still developing its nuclear weapons? Trump objects to the deal because (1) he feels we gave more than we got (2) he doesn't like the Sunset Clause and (3) he is pissed off at Iran's aggressive attitude in the Middle East generally. That is why Trump pulled out of the deal. There is no evidence that Iran is developing nuclear weapons or enhancing uranium on their military bases. Even US Secretary of Defense believes we should have stayed in the deal. If there was reason to believe Iran had gone off the reservation, he would have said so.

You think they wouldn't know it if Iran were still developing its nuclear weapons?

They had previously hidden enrichment facilities, despite promises to stop.
You don't think they can enrich at a military facility? Why not?

There is no evidence that Iran is developing nuclear weapons or enhancing uranium on their military bases.

There is no evidence they ever stopped.

Trump objects to the deal because (1) he feels we gave more than we got

He's right, obviously.

 

[Slade3200]

i think that YOU hesitant types are just naive . Look at the work of muslims in the last week in many parts of the world OldLady .

Christians we’re responsible for similar types of violent actions during the crusades. It begs an interesting question, are the actions really religious or are they political?

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

What was the excuse used by Christians during the crusades as you understand it?

 

[pismoe]

i think that YOU hesitant types are just naive . Look at the work of muslims in the last week in many parts of the world OldLady .

Christians we’re responsible for similar types of violent actions during the crusades. It begs an interesting question, are the actions really religious or are they political?

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

---------------------------------------------- don't know Slade . Maybe another poster knows and will reply .

 

[OldLady]

i think that YOU hesitant types are just naive . Look at the work of muslims in the last week in many parts of the world OldLady .

Christians we’re responsible for similar types of violent actions during the crusades. It begs an interesting question, are the actions really religious or are they political?

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

If C) is obsolete, may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?

The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.
jizyah | Definition & Facts

 

[OldLady]

I answered that already, best as I can.

The answer is, they don't.

I know that. I did comment on that. Keep looking.

Yeah, you feel the IAEA is enough, but they can't inspect the hundreds of military sites.
So why do you trust the Iranians again?

Dang, you're lazy. I don't trust the Iranians. I trust our intelligence agencies who knew where the chemical weapons sites were in Syria, and know where the nuclear weapons sites are in NoKo. You think they wouldn't know it if Iran were still developing its nuclear weapons? Trump objects to the deal because (1) he feels we gave more than we got (2) he doesn't like the Sunset Clause and (3) he is pissed off at Iran's aggressive attitude in the Middle East generally. That is why Trump pulled out of the deal. There is no evidence that Iran is developing nuclear weapons or enhancing uranium on their military bases. Even US Secretary of Defense believes we should have stayed in the deal. If there was reason to believe Iran had gone off the reservation, he would have said so.

You think they wouldn't know it if Iran were still developing its nuclear weapons?

They had previously hidden enrichment facilities, despite promises to stop.
You don't think they can enrich at a military facility? Why not?

There is no evidence that Iran is developing nuclear weapons or enhancing uranium on their military bases.

There is no evidence they ever stopped.

Trump objects to the deal because (1) he feels we gave more than we got

He's right, obviously.

Okay, you see the spy glass as half empty, I see it as half full. No sense arguing about it any further.

 

[Doc1]

i think that YOU hesitant types are just naive . Look at the work of muslims in the last week in many parts of the world OldLady .

Christians we’re responsible for similar types of violent actions during the crusades. It begs an interesting question, are the actions really religious or are they political?

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

What was the excuse used by Christians during the crusades as you understand it?

The excuse is always the same "God Wills It", there was no Biblical mandate to "conquer" and reclaim Jerusalem. Jerusalem was Biblically promised to be returned to the Jews, but not the way the King of England decreed. Trump is setting up the region for the coming war. I get goosebumps watching it ramp up daily. It's like something out of a Tom Clancy novel, and it is terrifying.

Israel's Government is demanding this war, Israel's people do not want it. My experience over there is that if we removed those Govs, both Israel's and the Palestinians, the people themselves could EASILY live side by side

 

[Slade3200]

i think that YOU hesitant types are just naive . Look at the work of muslims in the last week in many parts of the world OldLady .

Christians we’re responsible for similar types of violent actions during the crusades. It begs an interesting question, are the actions really religious or are they political?

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

If C) is obsolete, may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?

The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.
jizyah | Definition & Facts

A tax for non Muslims living in Muslim lands sounds awefully political to me or is that one of the pillars of Islam as defined in the Koran?

 

[Slade3200]

Christians we’re responsible for similar types of violent actions during the crusades. It begs an interesting question, are the actions really religious or are they political?

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

What was the excuse used by Christians during the crusades as you understand it?

The excuse is always the same "God Wills It", there was no Biblical mandate to "conquer" and reclaim Jerusalem. Jerusalem was Biblically promised to be returned to the Jews, but not the way the King of England decreed. Trump is setting up the region for the coming war. I get goosebumps watching it ramp up daily. It's like something out of a Tom Clancy novel, and it is terrifying.

Israel's Government is demanding this war, Israel's people do not want it. My experience over there is that if we removed those Govs, both Israel's and the Palestinians, the people themselves could EASILY live side by side

That’s a very astute observation, I find that these situations are most always a product of political influence and/or power grabs, or just outright religious bias. Leaders and governments use religion to progress their own ambissions for power and political gain. This is why I challenge people who want to simply blame the religion or its 2 billion followers. You’ve studied it, you’ve interacted with Muslims, you’ve visited their countries so I have to believe that you’ve been exposed to some virtuous characteristics that revolve around peace and love and respect for our fellow man. This is a huge element of the religion that oozes from many devote religious Muslims that I’ve inteacted with. Same goes for most I’ve met that follow the other religions.

We shouldn’t be attacking Islam, we should be attacking those who distort it for their own political gain. That goes for those in power in Iran and also those in this country and in Isreal who try and demonize Islam to strengthen the divide and opposition