Trump's pyrrhic victory: The US opts for path that can only lead to war

[OldLady]

Christians we’re responsible for similar types of violent actions during the crusades. It begs an interesting question, are the actions really religious or are they political?

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

If C) is obsolete, may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?

The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.
jizyah | Definition & Facts

A tax for non Muslims living in Muslim lands sounds awefully political to me or is that one of the pillars of Islam as defined in the Koran?

Well, it's referred to in the Koran, but whether it is a religious law, I don't know. lt sounds a lot more like an administrative/political arrangement to me.

The jizyah is described in the Qurʾān as a tax that is imposed on a certain erring faction from among the People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitāb; non-Muslim groups such as Christiansand Jews recognized in the Qurʾān as possessing a divine scripture) who violate their own religious and ethical principles (9:29).

 

[pismoe]

Christians we’re responsible for similar types of violent actions during the crusades. It begs an interesting question, are the actions really religious or are they political?

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

If C) is obsolete, may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?

The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.
jizyah | Definition & Facts

A tax for non Muslims living in Muslim lands sounds awefully political to me or is that one of the pillars of Islam as defined in the Koran?

--------------------------------- well , according to OldLady - jizyah - no longer applies but thats the first i ever heard of the rule change Slade . Maybe its a bit of - taqiyah - Slade . ------------- looks like its the 'marakesh declaration ' signed byover 100 'islamic' scholars whatever that means Slade .

 

[Doc1]

i think that YOU hesitant types are just naive . Look at the work of muslims in the last week in many parts of the world OldLady .

Christians we’re responsible for similar types of violent actions during the crusades. It begs an interesting question, are the actions really religious or are they political?

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

If C) is obsolete, may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?

The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.
jizyah | Definition & Facts

C is not "obsolete".

"The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.

You/we are not dealing with Modern day Islam, we are dealing with people who truly believe Modernity in and of itself is decadent and sinful. I'll say it again, you cannot ascribe modern thought to these people. AGAIN I am not talking about ALL of Islam, just the 10-15% radicalized portion of them. Did you know that when we first went into Afghanistan that we actually fought them on horse back? I know you won't accept that these are NOT people like you and me, they are not civilized in thought or deed. They are purely dogma driven and they driven by a 7h Century dogma.

"may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?'

Absolutely OL, but do the math 10-15% of 1.6 million is A LOT of Radicals.

 

[Slade3200]

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

If C) is obsolete, may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?

The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.
jizyah | Definition & Facts

A tax for non Muslims living in Muslim lands sounds awefully political to me or is that one of the pillars of Islam as defined in the Koran?

--------------------------------- well , according to OldLady - jizyah - no longer applies but thats the first i ever heard of the rule change Slade . [maybe its a bit of - taqiyah - Slade . ------------- looks like its the 'marakesh declaration ' signed byover 100 'islamic' scholars whatever that means Slade .

I don’t see the Taqiyah relation... what do you mean by rule change? It’s either a tax that is actively being imposed in Muslim countries or it isn’t...

 

[pismoe]

and its my opinion that the 15 percent [if accurate] REAL muslims have no problem keeping the 85 percent Apostate muslims in line with the sword , rocks , stones and beheadings Slade .

 

[Slade3200]

Christians we’re responsible for similar types of violent actions during the crusades. It begs an interesting question, are the actions really religious or are they political?

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

If C) is obsolete, may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?

The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.
jizyah | Definition & Facts

C is not "obsolete".

"The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.

You/we are not dealing with Modern day Islam, we are dealing with people who truly believe Modernity in and of itself is decadent and sinful. I'll say it again, you cannot ascribe modern thought to these people. AGAIN I am not talking about ALL of Islam, just the 10-15% radicalized portion of them. Did you know that when we first went into Afghanistan that we actually fought them on horse back? I know you won't accept that these are NOT people like you and me, they are not civilized in thought or deed. They are purely dogma driven and they driven by a 7h Century dogma.

"may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?'

Absolutely OL, but do the math 10-15% of 1.6 million is A LOT of Radicals.

So when you refer to the 10-15% of radicals you are talking about mostly uncivilized and and barbaric groups and no so much the majority of civilized Muslims is that right? So like how Christians grew out of the barbarism and distortions that happened during the crusades, there are still factions of Muslims that are behind the times and radical in their views. Would you say this is a political/power problem or a religious problem?

 

[pismoe]

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

If C) is obsolete, may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?

The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.
jizyah | Definition & Facts

A tax for non Muslims living in Muslim lands sounds awefully political to me or is that one of the pillars of Islam as defined in the Koran?

--------------------------------- well , according to OldLady - jizyah - no longer applies but thats the first i ever heard of the rule change Slade . [maybe its a bit of - taqiyah - Slade . ------------- looks like its the 'marakesh declaration ' signed byover 100 'islamic' scholars whatever that means Slade .

I don’t see the Taqiyah relation... what do you mean by rule change? It’s either a tax that is actively being imposed in Muslim countries or it isn’t...

------------------------------------- well as far as i know , the jizyah tax is in effect and the 'marakesh declaration' by 100 so called islamic scholars that Old Lady mentions means nothing as its just TAQIYAH , LIES OR BS , imo Slade .

 

[Slade3200]

and its my opinion that the 15 percent [if accurate] REAL muslims have no problem keeping the 85 percent apostate muslims in line with the sword , rocks , stones and beheadings Slade .

Then direct your anger at those who distort Islam and don’t conflate the radicals with the vast majority who follow it in a peaceful way.

 

[Slade3200]

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

If C) is obsolete, may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?

The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.
jizyah | Definition & Facts

A tax for non Muslims living in Muslim lands sounds awefully political to me or is that one of the pillars of Islam as defined in the Koran?

--------------------------------- well , according to OldLady - jizyah - no longer applies but thats the first i ever heard of the rule change Slade . [maybe its a bit of - taqiyah - Slade . ------------- looks like its the 'marakesh declaration ' signed byover 100 'islamic' scholars whatever that means Slade .

I don’t see the Taqiyah relation... what do you mean by rule change? It’s either a tax that is actively being imposed in Muslim countries or it isn’t...

------------------------------------- well as far as i know , the jizyah tax is in effect and the 'marakesh declaration' by 100 so called islamic scholars that Old Lady mentions means nothing as its just TAQIYAH , LIES OR BS , imo Slade .

Where is the tax still in effect?

 

[Doc1]

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

If C) is obsolete, may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?

The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.
jizyah | Definition & Facts

A tax for non Muslims living in Muslim lands sounds awefully political to me or is that one of the pillars of Islam as defined in the Koran?

--------------------------------- well , according to OldLady - jizyah - no longer applies but thats the first i ever heard of the rule change Slade . [maybe its a bit of - taqiyah - Slade . ------------- looks like its the 'marakesh declaration ' signed byover 100 'islamic' scholars whatever that means Slade .

I don’t see the Taqiyah relation... what do you mean by rule change? It’s either a tax that is actively being imposed in Muslim countries or it isn’t...

You have to make the distinction of "Moderate" Islam and "Radical" Islam. They are not the same horse. The Muslim living in Cleveland isn't cutting the heads off of Christians. The Muslims in the Sudan, in whats left of the "Califate" that ISIS wans to set up are.

 

[pismoe]

the muslim in Cleveland is Apostate and is not a true muslim in the eyes of his religion or 'gawd' Doc .

 

[Doc1]

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

If C) is obsolete, may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?

The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.
jizyah | Definition & Facts

C is not "obsolete".

"The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.

You/we are not dealing with Modern day Islam, we are dealing with people who truly believe Modernity in and of itself is decadent and sinful. I'll say it again, you cannot ascribe modern thought to these people. AGAIN I am not talking about ALL of Islam, just the 10-15% radicalized portion of them. Did you know that when we first went into Afghanistan that we actually fought them on horse back? I know you won't accept that these are NOT people like you and me, they are not civilized in thought or deed. They are purely dogma driven and they driven by a 7h Century dogma.

"may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?'

Absolutely OL, but do the math 10-15% of 1.6 million is A LOT of Radicals.

So when you refer to the 10-15% of radicals you are talking about mostly uncivilized and and barbaric groups and no so much the majority of civilized Muslims is that right? So like how Christians grew out of the barbarism and distortions that happened during the crusades, there are still factions of Muslims that are behind the times and radical in their views. Would you say this is a political/power problem or a religious problem?

Islam (radical) is a system of Governance. It is designed to control EVERY aspect of i's adherents lives, personally and politically. Khalid Sheik Mohammed filmed himself cutting off Daniel Pearl's head, that is NOT what your neighbor would do.

 

[Doc1]

the muslim in Cleveland is Apostate and is not a true muslim in the eyes of his religion or 'gawd' Doc .

I know that, I also know that he might still be one who would take part in "honor killing" and "genital mutilation".

 

[pismoe]

If C) is obsolete, may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?

The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.
jizyah | Definition & Facts

A tax for non Muslims living in Muslim lands sounds awefully political to me or is that one of the pillars of Islam as defined in the Koran?

--------------------------------- well , according to OldLady - jizyah - no longer applies but thats the first i ever heard of the rule change Slade . [maybe its a bit of - taqiyah - Slade . ------------- looks like its the 'marakesh declaration ' signed byover 100 'islamic' scholars whatever that means Slade .

I don’t see the Taqiyah relation... what do you mean by rule change? It’s either a tax that is actively being imposed in Muslim countries or it isn’t...

------------------------------------- well as far as i know , the jizyah tax is in effect and the 'marakesh declaration' by 100 so called islamic scholars that Old Lady mentions means nothing as its just TAQIYAH , LIES OR BS , imo Slade .

Where is the tax still in effect?

-------------------------------------- when real muslims were retaking lands in the middle east a few months they were sure to let non muslims know that they were under the 'jizyah' tax Slade .

 

[OldLady]

Christians we’re responsible for similar types of violent actions during the crusades. It begs an interesting question, are the actions really religious or are they political?

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

If C) is obsolete, may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?

The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.
jizyah | Definition & Facts

C is not "obsolete".

"The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.

You/we are not dealing with Modern day Islam, we are dealing with people who truly believe Modernity in and of itself is decadent and sinful. I'll say it again, you cannot ascribe modern thought to these people. AGAIN I am not talking about ALL of Islam, just the 10-15% radicalized portion of them. Did you know that when we first went into Afghanistan that we actually fought them on horse back? I know you won't accept that these are NOT people like you and me, they are not civilized in thought or deed. They are purely dogma driven and they driven by a 7h Century dogma.

"may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?'

Absolutely OL, but do the math 10-15% of 1.6 million is A LOT of Radicals.

I can certainly understand that radical Muslims think differently than me. What sticks in my craw is the large number you insist is a danger to the West. 15% would be 240,000. In the Quora site I am linking, the number is more like 106,000 (which is scary in itself) but that number includes many Muslims who are not in anyway actively pursuing jihad. If they wanted to, they've certainly had their opportunity recently.
Maybe what we should do first is pin down what the definition of "Radical" Islam is, and then look at how much of that ideology is actually posing a threat to anyone.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-extr...th-the-wider-and-world-wide-Muslim-population

 

[pismoe]

and its my opinion that the 15 percent [if accurate] REAL muslims have no problem keeping the 85 percent apostate muslims in line with the sword , rocks , stones and beheadings Slade .

Then direct your anger at those who distort Islam and don’t conflate the radicals with the vast majority who follow it in a peaceful way.

------------------------------ I have no anger , i only have interest in seeing how things go . Same happened in nazi Germany , a small number of nazis controlled ALL of Germany and Germans and they used violence . And a possible 15 percent of REAL muslims will / may control most muslims with violence , imo Slade .

 

[Doc1]

----------------------------------- yes 'mrobama; but i'm talking about TODAY , last week and to keep it easy lets just go back to 1993 [think it was] when the first attempt to take down the TRADE Tower happened by the muslim blind shiek [think it was] 'mrobama' - er Slade .

I realize we are talking about today and modern times but in this discussion I’ve heard a tone from multiple posters that is directing blame on a flawed religion. I’ve heard the term crazy Muhammad and accusations of a religious directive for chaos and world domination. I bring up the crusades because there was a time when violence, chaos and territorial domination as done in the name of Christianity. So it begs the question was that a directive from God given through religion or was it a man made distortion and abuse of religion to progress a political agenda. If we can agree that it was the later for the crusades then perhaps was can agree that the same principles are at work here with a faction of Islam. Are we on the same page?

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

If C) is obsolete, may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?

The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.
jizyah | Definition & Facts

C is not "obsolete".

"The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.

You/we are not dealing with Modern day Islam, we are dealing with people who truly believe Modernity in and of itself is decadent and sinful. I'll say it again, you cannot ascribe modern thought to these people. AGAIN I am not talking about ALL of Islam, just the 10-15% radicalized portion of them. Did you know that when we first went into Afghanistan that we actually fought them on horse back? I know you won't accept that these are NOT people like you and me, they are not civilized in thought or deed. They are purely dogma driven and they driven by a 7h Century dogma.

"may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?'

Absolutely OL, but do the math 10-15% of 1.6 million is A LOT of Radicals.

I can certainly understand that radical Muslims think differently than me. What sticks in my craw is the large number you insist is a danger to the West. 15% would be 240,000. In the Quora site I am linking, the number is more like 106,000 (which is scary in itself) but that number includes many Muslims who are not in anyway actively pursuing jihad. If they wanted to, they've certainly had their opportunity recently.
Maybe what we should do first is pin down what the definition of "Radical" Islam is, and then look at how much of that ideology is actually posing a threat to anyone.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-extr...th-the-wider-and-world-wide-Muslim-population

It's worse than that, it's 10-15% of 1.6 BILLION Muslims. That number includes many/most who are not actively involved in Jihad. Let's just isolate Afghanistan, ANYONE who follows the Taliban is considered a "radical", so yes the number of "radicals" does not equal the number of Jihadi's.

The problem is like everything else, take for instance Gun folks, how many on the Left here equate NRA members as all being monolithic nuts. That's simply not true. Many on the "Right" say ALL Progressives are Commies, completely false.

 

[there4eyeM]

Religions are not radical; people are radical. People choose to believe, accept a 'faith' (or ideology, for that matter).
Social reality tells us that most people do not experience making the choice, however. Most 'believers' appear to be simply in a moderate trance, walking through a routine they have always taken for usual, normal.
The firearms proponents do have it right that it's people, not firearms, that are responsible. The problem is that society does not want members to think enough to understand and accept genuine responsibility.
Religions are only radical when irresponsibly naîve believers allow themselves to take their 'belief' to extremes. But, we don't want to challenge the basis of religion itself, something that aids society to form obedient populations. Thus, euphemisms such as "radical religions" are employed. They distance us from a truth; the fundamental choice of a human to act as an automaton.
Until adults conduct themselves as such, society has to keep putting bandaids on the concept of responsibility and coming up with terms that obscure the truth.

 

[Slade3200]

The Crusades were nothing but a trumped up excuse to go to war. They had nothing to with Christianity itself. Islam on the other had has a distinct directive to :
A) Convert the world to Islam, or
B) Kill the infidels who will not convert, or
C) Make those who do not convert to pay a tax called a "Jizya" if they wished o live

Jizya or jizyah is a per capita yearly tax historically levied by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects—dhimmis—permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.

If C) is obsolete, may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?

The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.
jizyah | Definition & Facts

A tax for non Muslims living in Muslim lands sounds awefully political to me or is that one of the pillars of Islam as defined in the Koran?

--------------------------------- well , according to OldLady - jizyah - no longer applies but thats the first i ever heard of the rule change Slade . [maybe its a bit of - taqiyah - Slade . ------------- looks like its the 'marakesh declaration ' signed byover 100 'islamic' scholars whatever that means Slade .

I don’t see the Taqiyah relation... what do you mean by rule change? It’s either a tax that is actively being imposed in Muslim countries or it isn’t...

You have to make the distinction of "Moderate" Islam and "Radical" Islam. They are not the same horse. The Muslim living in Cleveland isn't cutting the heads off of Christians. The Muslims in the Sudan, in whats left of the "Califate" that ISIS wans to set up are.

I agree. But I see the two being conflated with each other all the time.

 

[Doc1]

If C) is obsolete, may I ask if A and B are also, for the vast majority of Muslims?

The jizyah is not collected in modern Muslim nation-states, since citizenship is no longer defined in religious terms and there is typically a standing national army, which all male adult citizens are free to join. Recognizing that the dhimmī system is obsolete in the modern era, in 2016 Muslim scholars from more than 100 countries signed the Marrakesh Declaration, a document that called for a new Islamic jurisprudence based on modern nation-based notions of citizenship.
jizyah | Definition & Facts

A tax for non Muslims living in Muslim lands sounds awefully political to me or is that one of the pillars of Islam as defined in the Koran?

--------------------------------- well , according to OldLady - jizyah - no longer applies but thats the first i ever heard of the rule change Slade . [maybe its a bit of - taqiyah - Slade . ------------- looks like its the 'marakesh declaration ' signed byover 100 'islamic' scholars whatever that means Slade .

I don’t see the Taqiyah relation... what do you mean by rule change? It’s either a tax that is actively being imposed in Muslim countries or it isn’t...

You have to make the distinction of "Moderate" Islam and "Radical" Islam. They are not the same horse. The Muslim living in Cleveland isn't cutting the heads off of Christians. The Muslims in the Sudan, in whats left of the "Califate" that ISIS wans to set up are.

I agree. But I see the two being conflated with each other all the time.

As do I. Those that do it are wrong and deluded. I have fought them, killed them , helped them and saved them. They have done the same for me and to me. There are good people on all sides. Unfortunately our media does not show this. Everything to them is black and white, that is not how life is.