Two Questions for Atheists

[rightwinger]

Maybe you need to behave well out of fear (which is not actually morality, completely undermining that nonsense), but most people behave well because they honor reason-based morality and ethics.

The problem with "reason-based" morality and ethics is that it often leads to atrocity. Hitler reasoned it was moral and ethical to exterminate 7 million Jews. Margaret Sanger and others reasoned eugenics was morally and ethically right. Many people today have no problem reasoning it's okay to kill little babies in the womb.

So you'll say, well okay, it's "community-based" reasoning.... but we live in a nation where 75% of the population have Judeo-Christian values, why aren't we adhering to their standards of morality and ethics?

When you do not have accountability for your reasoning in what is moral and ethical, it can take any form you, as a human, can rationalize. In other words, it's absolutely subjective and meaningless.

That's not a problem unique to reason-based morality, so I completely reject your covenient and incorrect characterization.

And reason-based morality is far superior to your "guiding spiritual light" nonsense, as you are merely employing reason-based morality, but with only half the reason.

Again... you must be misunderstanding my purpose in this thread. You seem to think this is about you. That I am somehow compelled to convince you, and failing that, I have failed to accomplish my objective. I'm not here to convince you and don't really give two shits what you reject.

I will finish by pointing out you have no idea or possible way of knowing what is superior because you don't believe in spiritual nature. You cannot compare what you don't believe in. What you're attempting to do is to be antagonistic. btw.. you failed.

" You seem to think this is about you. "

Oddly, as said in response to a two-sentence post, each one directly addressing your ideas. You are one odd guy, Boss. I have not assumed you are compelled to convince me, nor have I asked you to convince me of anything. Another creation, out of thin air, by you. I have responded to your ideas with my own thoughts of why they are nonsensical. And, along the way, I have pointed out your little cons and tricks, all of which older than dirt.

"I will finish by pointing out you have no idea or possible way of knowing what is superior because you don't believe in spiritual nature."

Yes, you got me there, it's "Just my opinion". Deep, man. Yes, that's right Boss, it's my opinion that reason-based morality is superior, and I have said exactly why I think that. And, no, I don't have to try your nuttery out for 5 years or even 5 minutes to correctly think that.

Well, no... actually you never stated why. You simply waddled in and proclaimed that you were rejecting my argument and declared it to be nonsensical. I went to the trouble to explain why "reason-based" morality is worthless. Reasoning is subjective. Humans reason all sorts of things as morally right when they are anything but. I gave you a few examples of that. When you rely on reasoning for your morals it simply means your morals are based on your own self-serving interests.

In my opinion, this is one of the biggest problems facing Atheism. There is no moral accountability. Moral relativism is responsible for the fall of many great civilizations. You can sit here and defiantly reject everything I say and pretend you've addressed my points but you cannot prove "reason-based" morality is superior to anything. Where in history are all the great Atheist civilizations? That's right, they do not exist!

Atheists are more moral than Christians

We act because it is the right thing to do. Christians act because they fear retribution

 

[Boss]

Yes, I am correct. You have not a shred of evidence for your nonsense, else you could compel others with it. Else you could rule out opposing ideas empirically. Else you could use it to make useful predictions, which would then also be evidence. That's what evidence is, Boss. No... you, sir, have not a shred of evidence.

But you're not correct and you have no idea who I've compelled.

I stated that I have all the evidence I need. I didn't say I had all the evidence YOU need. I have ruled out opposing ideas. I spent the better part of my life being just like you, rejecting God, defiantly refusing to believe religious nonsense. It wasn't until I was nearly 50 years old before I embraced my spiritual connection. So I have plenty of experience without it.

I can make all the useful predictions I need. For instance, I predict that if I abandon my spirituality, my life will go to hell in a hand basket like it did before. I can also predict that by maintaining a healthy spirit, my life will be greatly enhanced. These predictions have come true over and over again. They come true daily. Now that may not be evidence to you but evidence is subjective and I don't really care about you.

It doesn't bother me that you don't think I have evidence. I expect that! Why the hell else would you denounce God? It would take a real special kind of stupid to reject God while believing evidence for God at the same time. So, of course you don't believe I have evidence, but that doesn't matter to me, nor does it mean I don't have evidence.

 

[Meriweather]

Atheists are more moral than Christians

We act because it is the right thing to do. Christians act because they fear retribution

In any subset of people, be those people Christians or atheists, we have people acting because they fear retribution (from society in this life).

In any subset of people, be those people atheists or Christians, we have people acting because they truly want to strive for the ideal, because that is the type of people they wish to become.

Broad brushing any group, (be it Christians about atheists, or atheists about Christians) only displays ignorance on the part of the person (whatever their position) wielding the brush.

 

[Boss]

Atheists are more moral than Christians

We act because it is the right thing to do. Christians act because they fear retribution

I disagree. You don't do anything because it's the right thing to do. You do things because you feel they are the right thing to do. Many times, you are flat out WRONG.

I'm not here to defend Christians... I'm not a Christian. I don't fear retribution. I do fear accountability. I am accountable to Spiritual Nature and if I am careless, I pay the price in the here and now.

 

[rightwinger]

Atheists are more moral than Christians

We act because it is the right thing to do. Christians act because they fear retribution

I disagree. You don't do anything because it's the right thing to do. You do things because you feel they are the right thing to do. Many times, you are flat out WRONG.

I'm not here to defend Christians... I'm not a Christian. I don't fear retribution. I do fear accountability. I am accountable to Spiritual Nature and if I am careless, I pay the price in the here and now.

Yup

We have compassion and empathy on our own. We do things because we WANT to do the right thing

Don't want God to punish you do you?

 

[Meriweather]

Yup

We have compassion and empathy on our own. We do things because we WANT to do the right thing

Don't want God to punish you do you?

Perhaps try to get over the idea that Christians fear God and that is the Christian motivation. Try looking at the perspective that Christians truly love God and His ways. They choose obedience to the ways of God out of love, not out of fear. The learn, through the practice of obedience, that the ways God advocates for us, He advocates because they bring about the most fulfilling life.

My husband is an atheist, and he totally understands this. I understand his perspective that he wants to find the most fulfilling way of life all on his own, without a "cheat sheet" (Commandments, etc. ).

Truly, there is no need for either group to denigrate the other--not when understanding reveals a greater truth.

 

[Czernobog]

Atheists are more moral than Christians

We act because it is the right thing to do. Christians act because they fear retribution

I disagree. You don't do anything because it's the right thing to do. You do things because you feel they are the right thing to do. Many times, you are flat out WRONG.

We only do things because it is the right thing to do. You know, Erick Erickson was on Bill Maher last night, and the subject of God came up, and Erick made the most profound confession. He said that he embraces Christianity because it "...reminds him what a terrible person he is..." Now think about that confession for a minute. It is a common theme among Christians - "I need God because I am a horrible person, and God makes me better,"

Well, guess what? I am not a horrible person. I don't choose to not come to your house, tie you up, kill your wife, and skull fuck her in front of you, because some mythical Sky Daddy will scold me for doing that. I choose not to do that, because it is the fucking wrong thing to do, and I don't need anyone to remind me not to do it. You know who needs to be reminded to do what's right? Morally bankrupt sociopaths! Almost every Christian out there freely admits they don't do right because it is right. They do it because "God is watching"; they admit that without God they are morally bankrupt, horrible people.

So, tell us again how it is the atheists who are "corrupt"?

 

[MarkDuffy]

OMG I just realized

OK, Boss, how do YOU get your morality from your God?

Warning, be VERY careful with your response.

No need to be careful with my response, it's very simple. My morality is guided by the Spiritual Light. If it enables or promotes a positive spiritual energy it is generally moral and if not, it's generally immoral. The difference between myself and someone religious is that I behave morally for my own benefit here on Earth and not because I am commanded to do so or because I'm trying to get to heaven.My life in the here and now is enhanced and enriched by following the Spiritual Light.

So You have made your morality yourself, not gotten it from some magical spirit.

 

[MarkDuffy]

Morality is clearly subjective, particularly if there is nothing holding you accountable.

Maybe you need to behave well out of fear (which is not actually morality, completely undermining that nonsense), but most people behave well because they honor reason-based morality and ethics.

The problem with "reason-based" morality and ethics is that it often leads to atrocity. Hitler reasoned it was moral and ethical to exterminate 7 million Jews. Margaret Sanger and others reasoned eugenics was morally and ethically right. Many people today have no problem reasoning it's okay to kill little babies in the womb.

So you'll say, well okay, it's "community-based" reasoning.... but we live in a nation where 75% of the population have Judeo-Christian values, why aren't we adhering to their standards of morality and ethics?

When you do not have accountability for your reasoning in what is moral and ethical, it can take any form you, as a human, can rationalize. In other words, it's absolutely subjective and meaningless.

The problem with "reason-based" morality and ethics is that it often leads to atrocity

You just posted the opposite. You said your morality was reason-based.

Or did you lie?

 

[MarkDuffy]

OMG I just realized

OK, Boss, how do YOU get your morality from your God?

Warning, be VERY careful with your response.

No need to be careful with my response, it's very simple. My morality is guided by the Spiritual Light. If it enables or promotes a positive spiritual energy it is generally moral and if not, it's generally immoral. The difference between myself and someone religious is that I behave morally for my own benefit here on Earth and not because I am commanded to do so or because I'm trying to get to heaven.My life in the here and now is enhanced and enriched by following the Spiritual Light.

Haha, there's no "spiritual light" guiding you. That is your brain, running the show.

The best I can figure from his post is that he uses the size of his hardon to communicate with his spirit. If it gets bigger he must have done something moral.

 

[MarkDuffy]

Atheists are more moral than Christians

We act because it is the right thing to do. Christians act because they fear retribution

I disagree. You don't do anything because it's the right thing to do. You do things because you feel they are the right thing to do. Many times, you are flat out WRONG.

I'm not here to defend Christians... I'm not a Christian. I don't fear retribution. I do fear accountability. I am accountable to Spiritual Nature and if I am careless, I pay the price in the here and now.

Ahem

What made you deny the Christian God? It appears you do deny the Bible. I take it you used to be religious but that finally God too much for even you.

I don't deny the Christian God or the The Bible. I just don't believe in them. I never have.

I find it hard to believe God has humanistic attributes... Love, caring, compassion, anger, jealousy, desire and need. Why would an omnipotent and omniscient being need these attributes? I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to that question, therefore, I don't believe in such a God.

I believe that man has to invent a God he can relate to and this is why God has these attributes. MY God is more like an energy source... like nuclear power or electricity. It's there for our benefit if we choose to utilize it. It doesn't "care" if we do or not. It doesn't get hurt feelings if we don't worship it.

However.... I do believe that our spirits will ultimately be judged based on our earthly deeds. Why do I believe this? Because Spiritual Nature seems to steer us on a particular path and course of goodness and righteousness. I believe there is a purpose for this. Perhaps our mortal existence is a test of our souls to see if we are ready for a higher plane of existence?

However.... I do believe that our spirits will ultimately be judged based on our earthly deeds. Why do I believe this? Because Spiritual Nature seems to steer us on a particular path and course of goodness and righteousness. I believe there is a purpose for this. Perhaps our mortal existence is a test of our souls to see if we are ready for a higher plane of existence?

Judged

Boss, you are a mess.

 

[Boss]

OMG I just realized

OK, Boss, how do YOU get your morality from your God?

Warning, be VERY careful with your response.

No need to be careful with my response, it's very simple. My morality is guided by the Spiritual Light. If it enables or promotes a positive spiritual energy it is generally moral and if not, it's generally immoral. The difference between myself and someone religious is that I behave morally for my own benefit here on Earth and not because I am commanded to do so or because I'm trying to get to heaven.My life in the here and now is enhanced and enriched by following the Spiritual Light.

So You have made your morality yourself, not gotten it from some magical spirit.

not what i said.

 

[Boss]

Morality is clearly subjective, particularly if there is nothing holding you accountable.

Maybe you need to behave well out of fear (which is not actually morality, completely undermining that nonsense), but most people behave well because they honor reason-based morality and ethics.

The problem with "reason-based" morality and ethics is that it often leads to atrocity. Hitler reasoned it was moral and ethical to exterminate 7 million Jews. Margaret Sanger and others reasoned eugenics was morally and ethically right. Many people today have no problem reasoning it's okay to kill little babies in the womb.

So you'll say, well okay, it's "community-based" reasoning.... but we live in a nation where 75% of the population have Judeo-Christian values, why aren't we adhering to their standards of morality and ethics?

When you do not have accountability for your reasoning in what is moral and ethical, it can take any form you, as a human, can rationalize. In other words, it's absolutely subjective and meaningless.

The problem with "reason-based" morality and ethics is that it often leads to atrocity

You just posted the opposite. You said your morality was reason-based.

Or did you lie?

again... not what i said. you gotta real problem there buddy!

 

[Boss]

Atheists are more moral than Christians

We act because it is the right thing to do. Christians act because they fear retribution

I disagree. You don't do anything because it's the right thing to do. You do things because you feel they are the right thing to do. Many times, you are flat out WRONG.

I'm not here to defend Christians... I'm not a Christian. I don't fear retribution. I do fear accountability. I am accountable to Spiritual Nature and if I am careless, I pay the price in the here and now.

Ahem

What made you deny the Christian God? It appears you do deny the Bible. I take it you used to be religious but that finally God too much for even you.

I don't deny the Christian God or the The Bible. I just don't believe in them. I never have.

I find it hard to believe God has humanistic attributes... Love, caring, compassion, anger, jealousy, desire and need. Why would an omnipotent and omniscient being need these attributes? I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to that question, therefore, I don't believe in such a God.

I believe that man has to invent a God he can relate to and this is why God has these attributes. MY God is more like an energy source... like nuclear power or electricity. It's there for our benefit if we choose to utilize it. It doesn't "care" if we do or not. It doesn't get hurt feelings if we don't worship it.

However.... I do believe that our spirits will ultimately be judged based on our earthly deeds. Why do I believe this? Because Spiritual Nature seems to steer us on a particular path and course of goodness and righteousness. I believe there is a purpose for this. Perhaps our mortal existence is a test of our souls to see if we are ready for a higher plane of existence?

However.... I do believe that our spirits will ultimately be judged based on our earthly deeds. Why do I believe this? Because Spiritual Nature seems to steer us on a particular path and course of goodness and righteousness. I believe there is a purpose for this. Perhaps our mortal existence is a test of our souls to see if we are ready for a higher plane of existence?

Judged

Boss, you are a mess.

yep, that's what i believe, never said otherwise. you asked where my morality comes from. i behave morally because of my benefits here on earth, not because i believe we're ultimately judged.

but hey, think whatever you want. we already see you have comprehension problems.

 

[BreezeWood]

.
the same forces as gravity compel the Spirit, living without reaching the apex for the knowledge to free itself from the binds of Earth will be its demise irregardless all other considerations such as theism or atheism ... life's goal is required for admission to the Everlasting.

 

[Boss]

We only do things because it is the right thing to do. You know, Erick Erickson was on Bill Maher last night, and the subject of God came up, and Erick made the most profound confession. He said that he embraces Christianity because it "...reminds him what a terrible person he is..." Now think about that confession for a minute. It is a common theme among Christians - "I need God because I am a horrible person, and God makes me better,"

Well, guess what? I am not a horrible person. I don't choose to not come to your house, tie you up, kill your wife, and skull fuck her in front of you, because some mythical Sky Daddy will scold me for doing that. I choose not to do that, because it is the fucking wrong thing to do, and I don't need anyone to remind me not to do it. You know who needs to be reminded to do what's right? Morally bankrupt sociopaths! Almost every Christian out there freely admits they don't do right because it is right. They do it because "God is watching"; they admit that without God they are morally bankrupt, horrible people.

So, tell us again how it is the atheists who are "corrupt"?

You are a horrible person. The fact you don't come to my house, tie me up, kill my wife and skull fuck her in front of me, only means you're not a psychopath... and yet, your mind conjured up such an evil scenario.

You have failed to explain the basis for what you determine is wrong or right and I don't think you can do that without admitting it's your soul, the essence of who and what you are. In your case, you are your own God. You make your own rules as you go. Your morals and ethics are largely determined by your own selfish needs and desires without regard for society or anyone else. And what's worse, you think this makes you a "good" person.

I am reading through this thread trying to figure out which one of you is worse. Is it FunBags, who stumbles in to proclaim my arguments "rejected" without any counter whatsoever, and therefore, proclaiming himself victorious? Is it McDuffy, who just tells outright lies about what I've said? Is it Breeze, with his nonsensical cryptic train wreck of broken English, incomplete run-on sentences and seemingly contradictory pronouns that no one can decipher? Or is it you, with your self-proclaimed superiority?

I think you are all fucked in the head.

 

[Czernobog]

We only do things because it is the right thing to do. You know, Erick Erickson was on Bill Maher last night, and the subject of God came up, and Erick made the most profound confession. He said that he embraces Christianity because it "...reminds him what a terrible person he is..." Now think about that confession for a minute. It is a common theme among Christians - "I need God because I am a horrible person, and God makes me better,"

Well, guess what? I am not a horrible person. I don't choose to not come to your house, tie you up, kill your wife, and skull fuck her in front of you, because some mythical Sky Daddy will scold me for doing that. I choose not to do that, because it is the fucking wrong thing to do, and I don't need anyone to remind me not to do it. You know who needs to be reminded to do what's right? Morally bankrupt sociopaths! Almost every Christian out there freely admits they don't do right because it is right. They do it because "God is watching"; they admit that without God they are morally bankrupt, horrible people.

So, tell us again how it is the atheists who are "corrupt"?

You are a horrible person. The fact you don't come to my house, tie me up, kill my wife and skull fuck her in front of me, only means you're not a psychopath... and yet, your mind conjured up such an evil scenario

You don't know me. You don't know what kind of person I am. You need to believe I am a horrible person, so that you do not have to admit that there can be good, generous, kind people who do not need the implied threat of some "Sky Daddy" watching their every move to "keep them on the straight, and narrow". I do not help people, and demonstrate kindness because Some Magic Man in the Sky will punish me if I don't. I do these things simply because it feels better to not be a fucking asshole.

You have failed to explain the basis for what you determine is wrong or right and I don't think you can do that without admitting it's your soul, the essence of who and what you are. In your case, you are your own God. You make your own rules as you go. Your morals and ethics are largely determined by your own selfish needs and desires without regard for society or anyone else. And what's worse, you think this makes you a "good" person.

Right and wrong are simply determined by the Golden Rule which, contrary to Christians delusion, did not come from them. It has been traced to multiple ancient civilizations that pre-date Christianity. Do not to others what you would not have done to you. Simple as that. No God, or soul necessary. Just empathy. "How would I feel if this were done to me?"

I am reading through this thread trying to figure out which one of you is worse. Is it FunBags, who stumbles in to proclaim my arguments "rejected" without any counter whatsoever, and therefore, proclaiming himself victorious? Is it McDuffy, who just tells outright lies about what I've said? Is it Breeze, with his nonsensical cryptic train wreck of broken English, incomplete run-on sentences and seemingly contradictory pronouns that no one can decipher? Or is it you, with your self-proclaimed superiority?

I think you are all fucked in the head.

Well, when the guy who needs a Magic Sky Daddy to make sure that he behaves morally, and ethically tells me that I'm "fucked in the head", I will simply consider the source, and give that all of the consideration that it deserves.

 

[MarkDuffy]

We only do things because it is the right thing to do. You know, Erick Erickson was on Bill Maher last night, and the subject of God came up, and Erick made the most profound confession. He said that he embraces Christianity because it "...reminds him what a terrible person he is..." Now think about that confession for a minute. It is a common theme among Christians - "I need God because I am a horrible person, and God makes me better,"

Well, guess what? I am not a horrible person. I don't choose to not come to your house, tie you up, kill your wife, and skull fuck her in front of you, because some mythical Sky Daddy will scold me for doing that. I choose not to do that, because it is the fucking wrong thing to do, and I don't need anyone to remind me not to do it. You know who needs to be reminded to do what's right? Morally bankrupt sociopaths! Almost every Christian out there freely admits they don't do right because it is right. They do it because "God is watching"; they admit that without God they are morally bankrupt, horrible people.

So, tell us again how it is the atheists who are "corrupt"?

You are a horrible person. The fact you don't come to my house, tie me up, kill my wife and skull fuck her in front of me, only means you're not a psychopath... and yet, your mind conjured up such an evil scenario.

You have failed to explain the basis for what you determine is wrong or right and I don't think you can do that without admitting it's your soul, the essence of who and what you are. In your case, you are your own God. You make your own rules as you go. Your morals and ethics are largely determined by your own selfish needs and desires without regard for society or anyone else. And what's worse, you think this makes you a "good" person.

I am reading through this thread trying to figure out which one of you is worse. Is it FunBags, who stumbles in to proclaim my arguments "rejected" without any counter whatsoever, and therefore, proclaiming himself victorious? Is it McDuffy, who just tells outright lies about what I've said? Is it Breeze, with his nonsensical cryptic train wreck of broken English, incomplete run-on sentences and seemingly contradictory pronouns that no one can decipher? Or is it you, with your self-proclaimed superiority?

I think you are all fucked in the head.

I think you are all fucked in the head.

LOL, the ravings of the paranoid

I'm still laughing at your spirit God who judges but does not judge and is God but is not God

 

[Boss]

You don't know me. You don't know what kind of person I am. You need to believe I am a horrible person, so that you do not have to admit that there can be good, generous, kind people who do not need the implied threat of some "Sky Daddy" watching their every move to "keep them on the straight, and narrow". I do not help people, and demonstrate kindness because Some Magic Man in the Sky will punish me if I don't. I do these things simply because it feels better to not be a fucking asshole.

Yes I DO know you by the commentary you post here regularly. It says volumes about the kind of person you are. Again, you imply that you "help people" because it "feels better" than being an asshole. You've not explained why it "feels better" and you can't explain it unless you admit that it comes from within your SOUL... which you deny having! This leads me to believe you don't really "HELP" anyone but yourself. If you don't get something out of it, you couldn't care less. And you ARE an asshole, as evidenced by your "Sky Daddy" remark, besmirching the faith-based beliefs of your fellow man. You have no respect for anyone else, including yourself.

 

[Boss]

I'm still laughing at your spirit God who judges but does not judge and is God but is not God

Yeah, you had to run find a snippet from another thread and then concoct a total lie by taking my comments out of context because you lack any moral or ethical integrity. In doing this, you've made my point more brilliantly than I ever could have alone.

I believe in Spiritual Energy because I realize a benefit in nurturing it. On the question of "judgement," in another thread, I stated that I believe our souls might be ultimately "judged" ...or maybe a better word is "culled?" I don't think there is some humanistic deity with a checklist of all the things we've done, casting an actual judicial review of our life... I believe (possibly) our Spirit MAY have to achieve a certain degree of "righteousness" in order to pass on to the next level of existence. I put the word "righteousness" in quotes for a reason. It's not to say we have to adhere to some religious dogma but our Spirit has to be strong and with devout purpose in the promotion of goodness over evil.

WHY do I believe this MAY be the case? (Note: I didn't claim it WAS) It's because Spiritual Energy seems to be guiding us on a path of goodness, directing us toward the light and away from the dark. My reasoning is, there is a purpose to why this is the case. In other words, it makes sense to me that this COULD be the case. But it's not my reason for being moral and ethical. My reason is based on real life benefits I receive as a result of my actions.