U.S. Soldiers Punished For Not Attending Christian Concert

[DiamondDave]

DD, your entire argument in this thread has been argumentum ad hominem. Strangely enough, you haven't told me what of this article in the original post you dispute and why. See if you can do so without attacking the source.

If a child tells me he saw a flying Santa Claus... I don't need to state my obvious reasons for disputing the claim when the source is highly questionable...

You going to inherently accept right wing sources as fact, since you expect your winger sources to be accepted as fact??

 

[jillian]

The submission of a case does not inherently substantiate the claim within, jill

The decision, which does not corroborate the claims, was that the case was dismissed

But not dismissed because it wasn't believed.

dismissed because they said he should have exhausted his administrative remedies to allow the problem to be handled internally.

and the point WAS that the soldier was DISCIPLINED. He WAS...hence the case. (otherwise he woudln't have filed it.).

so what exactly is it that you're disputing?

1. that the general doesn't force his troops to be proselytized?
2. that there was no christian concert?
3. that these officers didn't refuse to go?
4. that they were disciplined?
or
5. that a case exists which will address these issues?

i think the major gen. needs to find a new hobby.

Did not have to get to that point, Jill

What I am disputing is the validity of the claim in the winger article by the winger author on the winger site... and if you read in the case and background, the soldier was a consientous objector and had a pattern of acts like the one mentioned in the case (the document even refers to the previous incidents)

What I am against are the leaps that even you have taken, stating the general stated one thing when his the source clearly shows different.... I am against use of this story or claim as fact when it has not been proven as so

i can't ascertain what it is that you're disputing... other than the subject is distasteful for you.

do you think they should be able to force soldiers to go to christian concerts if they don't wish to?

 

[DiamondDave]

DD its the decision

Asshole... try and understand... submitting a suit, and having the suit dismissed, does not substantiate the claims within the case....

You are fucking dense

It was Gates asking the case dismissed and got shut down by the judge.

And the claims were not substantiated one way or the other...

Jeez you are fucking dense

 

[Modbert]

If a child tells me he saw a flying Santa Claus... I don't need to state my obvious reasons for disputing the claim when the source is highly questionable...

You going to inherently accept right wing sources as fact, since you expect your winger sources to be accepted as fact??

You're trying to compare this to Santa Claus. You can't even go one sentence without saying what you think is false in the actual article.

Why would I inherently accept anything? I don't here. I'm asking you what you're disputing in this actual case. You cannot name one thing.

Are you disputing the location? The band that played? The soldiers story? What?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

But not dismissed because it wasn't believed.

dismissed because they said he should have exhausted his administrative remedies to allow the problem to be handled internally.

and the point WAS that the soldier was DISCIPLINED. He WAS...hence the case. (otherwise he woudln't have filed it.).

so what exactly is it that you're disputing?

1. that the general doesn't force his troops to be proselytized?
2. that there was no christian concert?
3. that these officers didn't refuse to go?
4. that they were disciplined?
or
5. that a case exists which will address these issues?

i think the major gen. needs to find a new hobby.

Did not have to get to that point, Jill

What I am disputing is the validity of the claim in the winger article by the winger author on the winger site... and if you read in the case and background, the soldier was a consientous objector and had a pattern of acts like the one mentioned in the case (the document even refers to the previous incidents)

What I am against are the leaps that even you have taken, stating the general stated one thing when his the source clearly shows different.... I am against use of this story or claim as fact when it has not been proven as so

i can't ascertain what it is that you're disputing... other than the subject is distasteful for you.

do you think they should be able to force soldiers to go to christian concerts if they don't wish to?

Soldiers are to follow orders no questions asked.

The problem I have with the story is it's integrity.

 

[DiamondDave]

But not dismissed because it wasn't believed.

dismissed because they said he should have exhausted his administrative remedies to allow the problem to be handled internally.

and the point WAS that the soldier was DISCIPLINED. He WAS...hence the case. (otherwise he woudln't have filed it.).

so what exactly is it that you're disputing?

1. that the general doesn't force his troops to be proselytized?
2. that there was no christian concert?
3. that these officers didn't refuse to go?
4. that they were disciplined?
or
5. that a case exists which will address these issues?

i think the major gen. needs to find a new hobby.

Did not have to get to that point, Jill

What I am disputing is the validity of the claim in the winger article by the winger author on the winger site... and if you read in the case and background, the soldier was a consientous objector and had a pattern of acts like the one mentioned in the case (the document even refers to the previous incidents)

What I am against are the leaps that even you have taken, stating the general stated one thing when his the source clearly shows different.... I am against use of this story or claim as fact when it has not been proven as so

i can't ascertain what it is that you're disputing... other than the subject is distasteful for you.

do you think they should be able to force soldiers to go to christian concerts if they don't wish to?

Jesus Christ Jill.. I am ex military... I know the motherfucking drill... you have rules within UCMJ that cover religious accommodation.... and while there are indeed ceremonies where a CO may pray, if it is a planned 'christian' event, you can follow the rules and submit your requests not to attend.... hell basic training I was forced to march and enter the chapel with my platoon... oooohhhhh big fucking whoop

 

[Modbert]

Jesus Christ Jill.. I am ex military... I know the motherfucking drill... you have rules within UCMJ that cover religious accommodation.... and while there are indeed ceremonies where a CO may pray, if it is a planned 'christian' event, you can follow the rules and submit your requests not to attend.... hell basic training I was forced to march and enter the chapel with my platoon... oooohhhhh big fucking whoop

That didn't answer her question though.

 

[DiamondDave]

If a child tells me he saw a flying Santa Claus... I don't need to state my obvious reasons for disputing the claim when the source is highly questionable...

You going to inherently accept right wing sources as fact, since you expect your winger sources to be accepted as fact??

You're trying to compare this to Santa Claus. You can't even go one sentence without saying what you think is false in the actual article.

Why would I inherently accept anything? I don't here. I'm asking you what you're disputing in this actual case. You cannot name one thing.

Are you disputing the location? The band that played? The soldiers story? What?

I am disputing your claim, the author's claim, and the "soldier's" claim, when it is not substantiated one way or another...

Just because a complaining soldier says so, and a activist organization tags along, and a winger author writes about it, does not substantiate the claims within

Remember sonny, I know the military system, the UCMJ, the religious activities within the military, etc.....

 

[Truthmatters]

He just wants to pretend it doesnt exsist.

That is how the right lives their lives

 

[Modbert]

I am disputing your claim, the author's claim, and the "soldier's" claim, when it is not substantiated one way or another...

Just because a complaining soldier says so, and a activist organization tags along, and a winger author writes about it, does not substantiate the claims within

Remember sonny, I know the military system, the UCMJ, the religious activities within the military, etc.....

And what would substantiate the claims to you? The fact MSNBC posts a story about it? Because that's been your main complaint in this thread. I personally think that no matter where this was posted, you would of tried to dispute it.

My question since page one to you and continues to be, why would the soldier lie? What does the soldier have from gaining here?

 

[DiamondDave]

Jesus Christ Jill.. I am ex military... I know the motherfucking drill... you have rules within UCMJ that cover religious accommodation.... and while there are indeed ceremonies where a CO may pray, if it is a planned 'christian' event, you can follow the rules and submit your requests not to attend.... hell basic training I was forced to march and enter the chapel with my platoon... oooohhhhh big fucking whoop

That didn't answer her question though.

Jesus christ you are dense too....

There are paths to take if you don't want to attend... but if you are in training and it is a company/battalion/platoon event andthe formation is going there... guess what, you are going if you did not follow the rules

I was forced to see the Kentucky Headhunters even though I did not want to go, while in basic training... and guess what, the base chaplain offered a prayer before the concert GASP ..... oh Lord how did I ever survive??

 

[DiamondDave]

I am disputing your claim, the author's claim, and the "soldier's" claim, when it is not substantiated one way or another...

Just because a complaining soldier says so, and a activist organization tags along, and a winger author writes about it, does not substantiate the claims within

Remember sonny, I know the military system, the UCMJ, the religious activities within the military, etc.....

And what would substantiate the claims to you? The fact MSNBC posts a story about it? I personally think that no matter where this was posted, you would of tried to dispute it.

My question since page one to you and continues to be, why would the soldier lie? What does the soldier have from gaining here?

The conscientious objector with a repeat history of complaints lie?? Now why would anyone think that??

I mean NO soldier ever tried to get away with anything

I'll listen to substantiated facts, not a claim

 

[Modbert]

Jesus christ you are dense too....

There are paths to take if you don't want to attend... but if you are in training and it is a company/battalion/platoon event andthe formation is going there... guess what, you are going if you did not follow the rules

I was forced to see the Kentucky Headhunters even though I did not want to go, while in basic training... and guess what, the base chaplain offered a prayer before the concert GASP ..... oh Lord how did I ever survive??

I understand that being forced to go to a Christian concert might be okay with you personally, however a Muslim or Atheist may not feel the same way.

 

[AllieBaba]

Keep in mind the hypocrites who are arguing that it's okay for these guys to ditch this concert are the same people who claimed that Augusta State was absolutely 100 percent correct to force a Christian girl to attend a gay pride parade or lose her degree.

 

[Modbert]

The conscientious objector with a repeat history of complaints lie?? Now why would anyone think that??

I mean NO soldier ever tried to get away with anything

I'll listen to substantiated facts, not a claim

I think you're trying to combine the two different stories now.

 

[AllieBaba]

What's wrong with the military requiring these soldiers to attend? Isn't diversity a good thing?

 

[DiamondDave]

Jesus christ you are dense too....

There are paths to take if you don't want to attend... but if you are in training and it is a company/battalion/platoon event andthe formation is going there... guess what, you are going if you did not follow the rules

I was forced to see the Kentucky Headhunters even though I did not want to go, while in basic training... and guess what, the base chaplain offered a prayer before the concert GASP ..... oh Lord how did I ever survive??

I understand that being forced to go to a Christian concert might be okay with you personally, however a Muslim or Atheist may not feel the same way.

And you have the paths to gain exception... but if you don't follow that path and the formation is going, guess what bubba, you're going

 

[Modbert]

What's wrong with the military requiring these soldiers to attend? Isn't diversity a good thing?

Wat.

Are you out of your mind?

 

[theHawk]

Talk To Action | U.S. Soldiers Punished For Not Attending Christian Concert

On May 13, 2010, about eighty soldiers, stationed at Fort Eustis while attending a training course, were punished for opting out of attending one of these Christian concerts. The headliner at this concert was a Christian rock band called BarlowGirl, a band that describes itself as taking "an aggressive, almost warrior-like stance when it comes to spreading the gospel and serving God."

Any doubt that this was an evangelical Christian event was cleared up by the Army post's newspaper, the Fort Eustis Wheel, which ran an article after the concert that began:

"Following the Apostle Paul's message to the Ephesians in the Bible, Christian rock music's edgy, all-girl band BarlowGirl brought the armor of God to the warriors and families of Fort Eustis during another installment of the Commanding General's Spiritual Fitness Concert Series May 13 at Jacobs Theater."

"Those of us that chose not to attend (about 80, or a little less that half) were marched back to the company area. At that point the NCO issued us a punishment. We were to be on lock-down in the company (not released from duty), could not go anywhere on post (no PX, no library, etc). We were to go to strictly to the barracks and contact maintenance. If we were caught sitting in our rooms, in our beds, or having/handling electronics (cell phones, laptops, games) and doing anything other than maintenance, we would further have our weekend passes revoked and continue barracks maintenance for the entirety of the weekend. At that point the implied message was clear in my mind 'we gave you a choice to either satisfy us or disappoint us. Since you chose to disappoint us you will now have your freedoms suspended and contact chores while the rest of your buddies are enjoying a concert.'

"At that evening, nine of us chose to pursue an EO complaint. I was surprised to find out that a couple of the most offended soldiers were actually Christian themselves (Catholic). One of them was grown as a child in Cuba and this incident enraged him particularly as it brought memories of oppression."

In the Army.mil article, Maj. Gen. Chambers was quoted as saying, "The idea is not to be a proponent for any one religion. It's to have a mix of different performers with different religious backgrounds." But there has been no "mix of different performers with different religious backgrounds" at these concerts. Every one of them has had evangelical Christian performers, who typically not only perform their music but give their Christian testimony and read from the Bible in between songs.

So, thoughts USMB?

It sounds like these are troops in their secondary training(after basic), they probably get on "lock-down" all the time. If it was during normal duty hours its normal to put them "to work" if they opt out of the alternate duty location (the Commander's event).

However, it is strange that a commander would put on an event with such a strong religious message, I never saw anything like that in my years with the Air Force and Army.

Most of the time you are "voluntold" to go to events like commander's call, ceremonies and such, just to fill in the seats so there is the appearance of "maximum participation", so the "higher-ups" who put it together can call it successful. Its just part of the normal bullshit you have to put up with while in the military. Thats more than likely what was going on in this particular case. Not so much that they are trying to force the religious stuff down people's throats, just a "get all the seats full" mentality by the senior NCOs to appease the officers.

 

[Valerie]

Well, i can't speak to the article, though it does seem consistent with this article from army.mil news

apparently major gen. chambers, a born again christian, thinks you're only ethically fit for duty if you have religion shoved down your throat on a regular basis.

and they're spending our money on this because?

Fort Lee Commanding General Reaches Out to Soldiers

Oh, what's this.

Chambers acknowledges without trepidation that there are some Soldiers who lack the moral upbringing or ethical consciousness to fulfill their promise as Soldiers.

"Our Soldiers today come from many different backgrounds." he said. "Some of those backgrounds did not include any kind of ethical, moral or civics-type training as children. Our intent is to expose that to them while they're here, and if it changes just a few behaviors then we've been successful."

oh yeah, that's what i was talking about. it just doesn't say in that article that they were disciplined for opting out. that's why i said the article was consistent.

Looks like some soldiers opted to characterize it as some sort of "punishment" where it actually was just a result of choosing one or the other...attend and endure this or don't attend and endure that...So the option is designed to not make it more enticing for those inclined to attend to not attend, and although maybe more enticing to those not otherwise inclined to attend to attend, the alternative is not necessarily a "punishment" just a consequence of their choice.

In other words, they can choose not to attend but don't expect it to be party time back at the barracks while others attend..You choose not to attend and it's back to your assignments. No "punishment" there, IMO.