Unpatriotic Dems In Virginia Erases Confederate Holiday

[Mr Natural]

The people of Virginia have spoken

They don’t want a Confederate Holiday

Virginia can’t really be considered the south anymore

 

[Correll]

I willing to listen to the argument she makes, or any evidence she supports. But all you showed me, was an assertion very weakly supported by a few quotes from individuals that were not representing or leading the movement that she was attacking.

If I said that the Democratic Party was the party of racism, and as support from my position, I offered some quotes from a few party officials at the country level in LA and NYC, that would not support my argument.


What you need is something from the founding documents or formal policy position or at last long standing practice, by the group as a whole to smear the group as a whole.

It's nice to cherrypick a single woman and pretend she's some sort of lone voice while ignoring her credentials, but number one, the article I linked (which you cut out as inconvenient so here it comes again) ALREADY quotes UDC former Chapter President Heidi Christensen introducing the Klan promotions;

Number two, the same article also quotes, AND LINKS for perusal, the UDC's children's book about the Klan, written by one Laura Martin Rose of the Mississippi Chapter;

Number three the same article also quotes yet another historian/Professor, Elizabeth Gillespie McRae describing how the UDC did “the daily work on multiple levels . . . needed to sustain racial segregation and to shape resistance to racial equality.”;

Number four, the same article also quotes yet another UDC Chapter President, Annie Cooper Burton, who wrote the second cited Klan book;

Most if not ALL of these were already quoted in the post you wiped out. Now you want to pretend they were never there??

Want a third historian?

"Like the KKK's children's groups, the UDC utilized the Children of the Confederacy to impart to the rising generations their own white-supremacist vision of the future." -- DuRocher, Kristina (2011). Raising racists : the socialization of white children in the Jim Crow South. University Press of Kentucky. ISBN 978-0-8131-3001-9.

Want a fourth? How 'bout Professor, Stuart Towns, stating that the UDC's thrust is one of the "essential elements [of] perpetuating Confederate mythology." -- Towns, W. Stuart (2012). Enduring Legacy: Rhetoric and Ritual of the Lost Cause. University of Alabama Press. ISBN 978-0-8173-1752-2. Some of his books are here.

And oh yes, both of these hold PhDs as well. As you know, "PhD" stands for "Pshaw-- hide Dis, it's inconvenent".

But leave us not stop there. From Angela Esco Elder, Graduate Alumnus at the University of Georgia:

>> Athens native Mildred Lewis Rutherford was probably the most prominent member of the UDC. Rutherford led a crusade for what she believed to be the true history of the Confederacy in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Strongly opposed to woman suffrage, Rutherford argued that the ideal woman should be deferential to men and remain in the home. She believed that all women should hold the plantation mistress as a role model. In addition to defending secession, Rutherford glorified both the plantation system and slavery in antebellum Georgia. The textbooks she wrote, as well as her choice of which ones to censor, serve as a testament to a Confederate history that attempted to legitimize the control of southern elites. From 1899 to 1902 Rutherford served as the Georgia Division's president, and from 1911 to 1916 she served as historian general of the national organization.

Around 1915 Caroline Helen Jemison Plane, the president of the UDC Atlanta chapter, began the project that would culminate in the Confederate memorial carving on Stone Mountain. As leader of the Stone Mountain Memorial Association (incorporated in 1916 as the Stone Mountain Confederate Monumental Association), she solicited the support of the sculptor Gutzon Borglum and convinced the owners of the mountain to give the UDC access to the property. In addition to the carving of Confederate heroes, Plane wanted Ku Klux Klan members to appear in the design.

... From 1953 to 1955 Mabel Sessions Dennis served as president general of the national UDC. Born in De Soto, in Sumter County, she held many positions in the group before leading the national organization. During her administration she organized the national [General] Children of the Confederacy. Comprising thousands of members today, the organization inducts children under the age of eighteen who can provide proof that they are descendants of honorable Confederate soldiers. The membership creed states a "desire to perpetuate, in love and honor, the heroic deeds of those who enlisted in the Confederate Services" and "teach the truths of history (one of the most important of which is, that the War Between the States was not a rebellion, nor was its underlying cause to sustain slavery)."​

From the UDC's youth indoctrination program the Children of the Confederacy reference above and their 2016 newsletter:
>> Minutes were published before the recommendation was adopted at the 2015 UDC General Convention. The phrase “. . . nor was its underlying cause to sustain slavery . . .” has been deleted from the Creed. <<

Note the date --- all of FIVE years ago. This was the UDC creed until 2015, more than a hundred years after they started running around feverishly putting up statues, rewriting schoolbooks and indoctrinating children.

There you go, FOUR MORE historians and THREE citations of UDC personnel, references to three more PLUS its own publications.

That enough authority for your wangly ass to go to?

My point was not that she was not qualified to speak, but that Appealing to Authority is a logical fallacy and her argument was weak.

My opinion is backed up by history. The policy of reconciliation and the way the South has been a valuable and patriotic part of American, instead of a restive and troublesome conquered territory is well known.

How odd that you try to bring up a "logical fallacy" -- built on another fallacy (cherrypicking) by committing another one --- the old "Everybody Knows", argumentum ad populum.

Oh and good luck making the case that a tenured Professor with a PhD is a "weak" source.

So there you are, it's a bit long so you've got a lot of deleting and ing to do, better get cracking.

Dismissed.

The UDC, was founded in 1894, and is still in operation. I bet if you spent the time and money, you could find just as much "evidence" of members who were Stalinist Marxist, wanting a Workers Paradise.

Don't need to. There's no such thing.

It would not mean that the southerns today, who support the statues they put up, are marxists, any more than a few examples of overlap with the klan means that the people that support the historical statues TODAY, are racist.

AGAIN --- there's no such thing. Reductio ad absurdum is as silly the second time as it was the first. And then you're trying to pervert the time tense of my history from past to present. Again, can't deal with the facts as I laid them out so you have to invent new ones.

And MY point, was not that everyone knows it, but citing the documented history of reconciliation and the last 150 years of the South being a loyal part of America.

Do you really need me to literally document that? Tell me what part, and I will.

I'm not interested in your point unless it's relevant here.

My point is relevant, because it is why the nation as a whole is fine with the memorials.

Because they are not seen as celebrating racism or treason.

How have you not learned this?

You have a lot of damn gall to suggest I "haven't learned this" -- the WHOLE POINT here is that this intensive propaganda campaign DID work, for generations. That's why they're not seen for what they are --- they were whitewashed by a disinformation campaign that was unfortunately effective. Hell it's still working on you RIGHT NOW.

What they are are, is inert rock.

It is what they are perceived as that defines them.


If, for generations, people were taught that they were harmless symbols of regional pride, celebrating the service and honor of soldiers fighting for their States, to the point that for generations and including TODAY, that is what people think of them,


then, THAT is what they truly are.


And you, as the one trying to redefine them as something else, and smearing millions of good people in the process and turning other millions of people against those millions,


this would be far better, if you would just stop.

 

[Correll]

I can see that you would not want to celebrate such ancestors if they were your ancestors.

Correct!

I’d be ashamed and embarrassed of them.

Well, lots of other people, are more forgiving of their ancestors and celebrate them.

 

[Mr Natural]

I can see that you would not want to celebrate such ancestors if they were your ancestors.

Correct!

I’d be ashamed and embarrassed of them.

Well, lots of other people, are more forgiving of their ancestors and celebrate them.

Yes, like the Germans with the Nazis.

 

[Correll]

All I asked was, if you actually cared about them. a YES, was all I was asking for.


But, as I suspected, you were just following your troll play book.

You said there were polls that said that "most Americans support the historical statues"....and you cannot produce even one of those polls.....and then you name-call when asked to prove that these polls actually exist outside your own head. A rational person can tell you lied. Sad for you.

I did say that. But I dont' believe that you care about them, so why are you asking for a link to them?


It seems like you are just being a troll boy, and asking me, to get some type of pathetic "win" by making me do what you want.


I'm not interested in playing such a silly game, with something like you.

So let's recap the last few rants.
"RW called for whites to be enslaved" or whatever it was --- yet you don't have to present any evidence of it.
"Polls say most whatevers support statues" --- yet you don't have to present any evidence of it.
"Nobody had a problem with the Lost Cause propaganda for decades" --- yet you don't have to present any evidence of it.

A pattern I smell.

1. No, RW called for whites to be oppressed, not enslaved. And he is right here, so you can ask him.

2. That is what I heard. No need to post them, because no one cares about what they say.

3. I've already pointed out to you, that what we are discussing is not the "Lost Cause", so, why are you lying?

1. NOBODY needs to ask him what you asserted -- YOU need to prove it.

2. As in #1, if you want it considered YOU need to prove it. Again, YOUR assertion.

3. You've already deleted mass quantities of evidence posted for you but AGAIN that doesn't mean it was never there.

1. I did not say you needed to. But if you want to, you are welcome to. THough seriously. You know I am right.

2. I do want it considered, but I know that no matter what, none of you libs will consider it. Asking for the polls, when you are not open to the information, at all, is just a troll move. I have no reason to play along.

3. You made a claim that does not match my personal experience living in America. No amount of claims about people long dead will convince me to doubt my personal experiences.

 

[Correll]

All I asked was, if you actually cared about them. a YES, was all I was asking for.


But, as I suspected, you were just following your troll play book.

You said there were polls that said that "most Americans support the historical statues"....and you cannot produce even one of those polls.....and then you name-call when asked to prove that these polls actually exist outside your own head. A rational person can tell you lied. Sad for you.

I did say that. But I dont' believe that you care about them, so why are you asking for a link to them?


It seems like you are just being a troll boy, and asking me, to get some type of pathetic "win" by making me do what you want.


I'm not interested in playing such a silly game, with something like you.

So let's recap the last few rants.
"RW called for whites to be enslaved" or whatever it was --- yet you don't have to present any evidence of it.
"Polls say most whatevers support statues" --- yet you don't have to present any evidence of it.
"Nobody had a problem with the Lost Cause propaganda for decades" --- yet you don't have to present any evidence of it.

A pattern I smell.

1. No, RW called for whites to be oppressed, not enslaved. And he is right here, so you can ask him.

2. That is what I heard. No need to post them, because no one cares about what they say.

3. I've already pointed out to you, that what we are discussing is not the "Lost Cause", so, why are you lying?

Link or admit you are lying

Stop playing games. We discussed this many times. I told them that you thought it would be fine, because whites would just accept it.

 

[Correll]

They are not symbols of hate. They are harmless symbols of regional pride.


You seem to be the one seething with hate today.

Treason is nothing to be proud of.

Your strange inability to understand that people are more than one thing, is strange.


And boring. So, whatever.

 

[Correll]

Back southerners trump the rest of America, including the actual soldiers that fought and defeated the Confederacy?

Based on what exactly and why are they not bound by the principles of Multiculturalism?

"back southerners"?

And tell us how many of those actual soldiers are still around for us to ask.....

None of them, of course. But they made their position on the issue clear, back when they were alive.


Obviously.

Think about the folks who erected these statues, created these monuments, named streets and towns after these traitors and racists. It was children and grand children of the Confederate trash.

Why are you so full of hate towards these people?

You seem to like to project hate..........................a lot.

No, you called them, "chilren and grandchildren of Confederate trash". That is not something I made up, but something YOU wrote.


My question stands. Why are you so full of hate, towards these people?

 

[Correll]

Bigger than that. More the general way that minorities are treated everywhere, plus the hate I already see from people like RW and you.


It bodes ill for the future.

"The hate"....this from the person who name-calls people when he (or is it she?) doesn't get his way...........and cries about being picked on......

Funny, you could have denied hating me. But, I guess there is a limit to how stupid, even you want to look.


My point stands.


IN this multicultural society we have build, all cultures are supposed to be able to live in harmony and peace and tolerance.


But, some cultures are less tolerated than others. As you and rw are demonstrating with your hate.

Over a 150 years later and Confederates and their racist fanboys continue lying when faced with righteousness..

Maybe if God was on the side of the Confederates, the truth wouldn't sting you so much....

YOu can shove your race baiting up your ass, fucktard.

See? There we go again.

YOu mean how he called me a name, and I responded appropriately? Correct, there we go again.


I tend to call people who are being fucktards, fucktards.

 

[Correll]

Bigger than that. More the general way that minorities are treated everywhere, plus the hate I already see from people like RW and you.


It bodes ill for the future.

"The hate"....this from the person who name-calls people when he (or is it she?) doesn't get his way...........and cries about being picked on......

Funny, you could have denied hating me. But, I guess there is a limit to how stupid, even you want to look.


My point stands.


IN this multicultural society we have build, all cultures are supposed to be able to live in harmony and peace and tolerance.


But, some cultures are less tolerated than others. As you and rw are demonstrating with your hate.

Over a 150 years later and Confederates and their racist fanboys continue lying when faced with righteousness..

Maybe if God was on the side of the Confederates, the truth wouldn't sting you so much....

YOu can shove your race baiting up your ass, fucktard.

No need to lash out at me....
...g

When you call me a name, there is plenty of reason to point out that you are a fucking asshole.


You want to talk about the topic? Stop being a fucking race baiting asshole.

 

[Correll]

Back southerners trump the rest of America, including the actual soldiers that fought and defeated the Confederacy?

Based on what exactly and why are they not bound by the principles of Multiculturalism?

Blacks in the Confederacy always had an awkward position. 4 million out of 9 million in the Confederacy were slaves.

Yet afterwards, nobody cared what they thought about the Confederacy

You made a point about TODAY'S blacks.


I asked you why they are more important than the rest of the nation and why they are not bound by the principles of multiculturalism.


Your reply did nothing to explain your point about modern blacks.

We are talking about today’s blacks who feel no loyalty to the confederacy. Neither do most whites

Yes. Neither of us are confused about that. So, please stop discussing it.


You made a point about TODAY'S blacks.


I asked you why they are more important than the rest of the nation and why they are not bound by the principles of multiculturalism.

The people of Virginia have spoken

They don’t want a Confederate Holiday

Yes, a majority of the people, driven primarily as you stated, by modern blacks.


I ask again, since you brought it up.


why they are more important than the rest of the nation and why they are not bound by the principles of multiculturalism?

 

[Correll]

I can see that you would not want to celebrate such ancestors if they were your ancestors.

Correct!

I’d be ashamed and embarrassed of them.

Well, lots of other people, are more forgiving of their ancestors and celebrate them.

Yes, like the Germans with the Nazis.

LOL!!! Another lib, who can't understand why two completely different situations would have different outcomes.

LOL!!!!

 

[bodecea]

Tens of millions of black Southerners have always been offended by Confederate celebrations

They are finally being listened to

Back southerners trump the rest of America, including the actual soldiers that fought and defeated the Confederacy?

Based on what exactly and why are they not bound by the principles of Multiculturalism?

Blacks in the Confederacy always had an awkward position. 4 million out of 9 million in the Confederacy were slaves.

Yet afterwards, nobody cared what they thought about the Confederacy

You made a point about TODAY'S blacks.


I asked you why they are more important than the rest of the nation and why they are not bound by the principles of multiculturalism.


Your reply did nothing to explain your point about modern blacks.

We are talking about today’s blacks who feel no loyalty to the confederacy. Neither do most whites

Yes. Neither of us are confused about that. So, please stop discussing it.


You made a point about TODAY'S blacks.


I asked you why they are more important than the rest of the nation and why they are not bound by the principles of multiculturalism.

Who, besides yourself, is implying that today's blacks are "more important than the rest of the nation"?

 

[bodecea]

I can see that you would not want to celebrate such ancestors if they were your ancestors.

Correct!

I’d be ashamed and embarrassed of them.

Well, lots of other people, are more forgiving of their ancestors and celebrate them.

There's "forgiving"....and then there is "celebrating". Two different things.

 

[rightwinger]

You said there were polls that said that "most Americans support the historical statues"....and you cannot produce even one of those polls.....and then you name-call when asked to prove that these polls actually exist outside your own head. A rational person can tell you lied. Sad for you.

I did say that. But I dont' believe that you care about them, so why are you asking for a link to them?


It seems like you are just being a troll boy, and asking me, to get some type of pathetic "win" by making me do what you want.


I'm not interested in playing such a silly game, with something like you.

So let's recap the last few rants.
"RW called for whites to be enslaved" or whatever it was --- yet you don't have to present any evidence of it.
"Polls say most whatevers support statues" --- yet you don't have to present any evidence of it.
"Nobody had a problem with the Lost Cause propaganda for decades" --- yet you don't have to present any evidence of it.

A pattern I smell.

1. No, RW called for whites to be oppressed, not enslaved. And he is right here, so you can ask him.

2. That is what I heard. No need to post them, because no one cares about what they say.

3. I've already pointed out to you, that what we are discussing is not the "Lost Cause", so, why are you lying?

Link or admit you are lying

Stop playing games. We discussed this many times. I told them that you thought it would be fine, because whites would just accept it.

Link to where I said any such thing or admit you are lying

 

[bodecea]

I can see that you would not want to celebrate such ancestors if they were your ancestors.

Correct!

I’d be ashamed and embarrassed of them.

Well, lots of other people, are more forgiving of their ancestors and celebrate them.

Yes, like the Germans with the Nazis.

The NAZIS lasted twice as long as the Con-federacy did.

 

[rightwinger]

Blacks in the Confederacy always had an awkward position. 4 million out of 9 million in the Confederacy were slaves.

Yet afterwards, nobody cared what they thought about the Confederacy

You made a point about TODAY'S blacks.


I asked you why they are more important than the rest of the nation and why they are not bound by the principles of multiculturalism.


Your reply did nothing to explain your point about modern blacks.

We are talking about today’s blacks who feel no loyalty to the confederacy. Neither do most whites

Yes. Neither of us are confused about that. So, please stop discussing it.


You made a point about TODAY'S blacks.


I asked you why they are more important than the rest of the nation and why they are not bound by the principles of multiculturalism.

The people of Virginia have spoken

They don’t want a Confederate Holiday

Yes, a majority of the people, driven primarily as you stated, by modern blacks.


I ask again, since you brought it up.


why they are more important than the rest of the nation and why they are not bound by the principles of multiculturalism?

You really don’t understand how a Democracy works

 

[bodecea]

You said there were polls that said that "most Americans support the historical statues"....and you cannot produce even one of those polls.....and then you name-call when asked to prove that these polls actually exist outside your own head. A rational person can tell you lied. Sad for you.

I did say that. But I dont' believe that you care about them, so why are you asking for a link to them?


It seems like you are just being a troll boy, and asking me, to get some type of pathetic "win" by making me do what you want.


I'm not interested in playing such a silly game, with something like you.

So let's recap the last few rants.
"RW called for whites to be enslaved" or whatever it was --- yet you don't have to present any evidence of it.
"Polls say most whatevers support statues" --- yet you don't have to present any evidence of it.
"Nobody had a problem with the Lost Cause propaganda for decades" --- yet you don't have to present any evidence of it.

A pattern I smell.

1. No, RW called for whites to be oppressed, not enslaved. And he is right here, so you can ask him.

2. That is what I heard. No need to post them, because no one cares about what they say.

3. I've already pointed out to you, that what we are discussing is not the "Lost Cause", so, why are you lying?

1. NOBODY needs to ask him what you asserted -- YOU need to prove it.

2. As in #1, if you want it considered YOU need to prove it. Again, YOUR assertion.

3. You've already deleted mass quantities of evidence posted for you but AGAIN that doesn't mean it was never there.

1. I did not say you needed to. But if you want to, you are welcome to. THough seriously. You know I am right.

2. I do want it considered, but I know that no matter what, none of you libs will consider it. Asking for the polls, when you are not open to the information, at all, is just a troll move. I have no reason to play along.

3. You made a claim that does not match my personal experience living in America. No amount of claims about people long dead will convince me to doubt my personal experiences.

"You know I'm right".....

 

[Correll]

Back southerners trump the rest of America, including the actual soldiers that fought and defeated the Confederacy?

Based on what exactly and why are they not bound by the principles of Multiculturalism?

Blacks in the Confederacy always had an awkward position. 4 million out of 9 million in the Confederacy were slaves.

Yet afterwards, nobody cared what they thought about the Confederacy

You made a point about TODAY'S blacks.


I asked you why they are more important than the rest of the nation and why they are not bound by the principles of multiculturalism.


Your reply did nothing to explain your point about modern blacks.

We are talking about today’s blacks who feel no loyalty to the confederacy. Neither do most whites

Yes. Neither of us are confused about that. So, please stop discussing it.


You made a point about TODAY'S blacks.


I asked you why they are more important than the rest of the nation and why they are not bound by the principles of multiculturalism.

Who, besides yourself, is implying that today's blacks are "more important than the rest of the nation"?

RW. I pointed out that the nation as a whole was fine with the memorials, and he stated that the modern blacks were not.


But I cant' get him to explain why.


Could you ask him? Maybe he will be more comfortable explaining his reasoning, if the question comes from you.

 

[Correll]

I can see that you would not want to celebrate such ancestors if they were your ancestors.

Correct

I’d be ashamed and embarrassed of them.

Well, lots of other people, are more forgiving of their ancestors and celebrate them.

There's "forgiving"....and then there is "celebrating". Two different things.

That is correct. Perhaps that is why I used the word "and" to show that the people in question were doing TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.


Thank GOD you were here. Someone might have been confused otherwise.