US swallowed $9.7 billion loss on General Motors bailout

[daveman]

Iraq cost 12 billion a month and you think that was a good investment.

Not really. I did think, however, it was necessary.

Unlike progressive morons and their vacuous bumper stickers and protest signs, I never believed the war was for oil, and that we'd have supertankers lined up to offload Iraqi crude.

Let me guess: You believed it was for oil, didn't you?

I thought it was because Baby Bush was upset Saddam tried to whack Pappy Bush.

Then, as usual, you didn't think at all.

But what it wasn't about.

It wasn't about Weapons of Mass Destruction, because Saddam didn't have those.

It wasn't about links to Al Qaeda, because Saddam didn't have those, either.

But let's get this straight. We pissed away 12 BILLION a month in order to get rid of Saddam, we've ended up replacing him with a Shi'ite dictatorship that is allied with teh Iranians.

Mahmoud can walk down the streets of Baghdad to cheering crowds while Bush has to sneak in during the middle of the night and hope no one throws shoes at him.

But in Dave-Land, this is money well spent. Even though it did nothing to enhance our safety. Not to mention costing us 5000 lives.

but a bailout that saved millions of jobs? HORRIBLE!

Millions?

And you wonder why people laugh at you.

 

[daveman]

Let's talk about the real reason wingnuts hate the GM Bailout.

Because they truly, really believe that guys in expensive suits know what's best for us. And when they got their asses handed to them by car companies in "Socialist" countries like Germany and Japan, and had to go hat in hand to the mean old Gummit, that was a serious blow.

Why do you think that guys in suits who work for the government know what's best for us?

I see government as kind of like an evil genie... they give us exactly what we wish for.

We just need to be careful what we wish for.

I've seen what you wish for. It's a murderous failure.

 

[daveman]

Germany and Japan are Communist? Really?

Hey, guy, here's what the Japanese and Germans do.

They have strong unions. In fact, the unions have a say in who the CEO is at Nissan or Volkswagen.

Goverment takes care of health care, so that's not an issue.

They invest properly in education. Which means they don't have "I got mine, fuck you poor people", but everyone gets the same quality of education. Therefore they produce better engineers and make smarter cars.

Yeah, bunch of stinking communists making us look bad by doing it right!

Typical Commie reaction:

Nationalize every damn thing.

Yes, we need car companies that work just as well as the Obamacare website.

Again, compared to the various clusterfucks in the private sector like X-Box or the new Apple glitches? but that's okay, that's private sector.

I forget -- when did the government pass laws requiring people to buy X-Boxes or iPhones?

Guy, you do get that the Germans And Japanese treat their car companies as a national resource, and as a result, get far better results than we do, right?

I really do find it hilarious that someone who spent much of his life sucking off the government teet spends so much time bitching about government.

This will come as a shock to you, but more government isn't the solution to every problem. The Soviet Union collapsed. Because, in part, they thought more government was the solution to every problem.

For a history major, you're astoundingly ignorant of history. Maybe you can get your money back.

 

[daveman]

As a point- GM has been in trouble for DECADES. It's not like the investor parasites didn't know they were taking a risk.

First thing you do to save a patient... expunge the parasites.

Buh-bye, parasite!

 

[daveman]

Iraq cost 12 billion a month and you think that was a good investment.

Not really. I did think, however, it was necessary.

Unlike progressive morons and their vacuous bumper stickers and protest signs, I never believed the war was for oil, and that we'd have supertankers lined up to offload Iraqi crude.

Let me guess: You believed it was for oil, didn't you?

The Iraq war began in 1991, and George Bush Sr. declared it to be 'for oil':

From his 1990 speech to Congress, his justification for deciding we needed to intervene in the Iraq/Kuwait conflict:

Vital economic interests are at risk as well. Iraq itself controls some 10 percent of the world's proven oil reserves. Iraq plus Kuwait controls twice that. An Iraq permitted to swallow Kuwait would have the economic and military power, as well as the arrogance, to intimidate and coerce its neighbors -- neighbors who control the lion's share of the world's remaining oil reserves. We cannot permit a resource so vital to be dominated by one so ruthless. And we won't.

If you don't think Iraq was a war for oil, then argue with Bush Sr. and everyone who at the time agreed with him.

George Bush Presidential Library and Museum :: Public Papers - 1990 - September

Then you won't have a problem finding pictures of those supertankers lined up to offload Iraqi oil, will you?

 

[daveman]

I'm convinced that conservatives would be happier if the US were simply to break up into 50 countries,

with, at most, a defensive military alliance among most or all of them.

I'm convinced that conservatives have all but abandoned the idea that a nation as large as the US is a good thing.

Well, that's an interesting delusion.

 

[daveman]

Yes.

The federal government invested 50 billion dollars and has a 9.7 billion dollar loss. A report from the GAO stated that A collapse would have reduced personal income in the U.S. in 2009 and 2010 by $96.5 billion, costing the federal government $28.6 billion in extra jobless benefits and reduced Social Security contributions and income taxes in those years, the center said. A ripple effect of an addition 1.14 million jobs in 2009 and 2010 would have certainly driven the economy much deeper into recession. A 9.7 billion dollar loss or even twice that is a small price to pay when you consider the cost of doing nothing.

Or they could have used the laws in place -- bankruptcy -- to restructure their debt and keep working at no cost to the taxpayer.

Of course, the unions would have taken a hit, and that would not have been acceptable.

Oh, you didn't know? The bailout was to the UAW -- GM was just the middleman.

There was no private-sector financing available in 2009 and the bailout was the only way to keep the companies alive. Without it, GM and Chrysler would have gone out of business, taking down many suppliers. That would have likely caused bankruptcies at the healthier automakers such Ford, who would not have been able to get the parts they needed to build cars. That is why Ford went to Capitol Hill in late 2008 pushing for the rescue of its rivals.

What the opposition can't accept is the reorganization worked. Both GM and Chrysler became profitable and America came out of the worst recession since the great depression. Obama shattered the right's dream of the destruction of the American economy which could have been the foundation of a new conservative America build on conservative ideology.

Yes, and Obama's progressive economy is working SO good right now.

 

[daveman]

I'm convinced that conservatives would be happier if the US were simply to break up into 50 countries,

with, at most, a defensive military alliance among most or all of them.

I'm convinced that conservatives have all but abandoned the idea that a nation as large as the US is a good thing.

I agree, the far right sees America in a hopeless situation with Armageddon just around the corner. I sense the attitude is one of "lets get on with it". Then we can rebuild the nation as it was intended, a loose confederation of states tied together for mutual defense.

Conservatives want smaller ponds because that's the only place they can be the big fish.

Conservatives are a permanent minority at the national level, but if they could concentrate their power in certain states, they could achieve the kind of tyranny of the majority that they crave.

Sheer projection.

 

[OnePercenter]

GM is not Detroit and vice versa.

We also are footing the $24 Billion bill from the GOP temper tantrum that shut down the government...

Not passing Keystone and deregulating environmental regulations causing the temper tantrum? teabaggers are such idiots...

 

[JoeB131]

They were the parasites.

Got it.

Probably not...

Okay, try to make this simple for you because you are k ind of slow.

GM was bankrupt. The Investors had worthless paper. The government said, "We'll give them an infusion in cash, but the only way we get that back is to make sure the production lines keep running." and they paid them off, penny's on the dollar, but hey, you gamble, you take the chance of losing.

If GM was bankrupt they should have gone into bankrupcy to reorganize and get themselves back in shape.

They got taxpayer money, straighened out their mismanaged pension funds and then went into bankruptcy.

I'm not slow at all. I just see it differently than you do.

Oh and BTW. I don't think tax dollars should go to bail out any company. If the company can't survive on its own then let it fail.

The problem with bankruptcy is that it isn't designed to protect working folks...

The bailout put working people over rich people, who'd have just picked the last bit of meat from the bones of GM.

 

[Trajan]

GM is not Detroit and vice versa.

We also are footing the $24 Billion bill from the GOP temper tantrum that shut down the government...

the us gov. spends 10Bn a day, everyday. the 'shutdown' was for, what 16 days? so we're ahead.....

 

[Trajan]

I'm convinced that conservatives would be happier if the US were simply to break up into 50 countries,

with, at most, a defensive military alliance among most or all of them.

I'm convinced that conservatives have all but abandoned the idea that a nation as large as the US is a good thing.

I agree, the far right sees America in a hopeless situation with Armageddon just around the corner. I sense the attitude is one of "lets get on with it". Then we can rebuild the nation as it was intended, a loose confederation of states tied together for mutual defense.

Conservatives want smaller ponds because that's the only place they can be the big fish.

Conservatives are a permanent minority at the national level, but if they could concentrate their power in certain states, they could achieve the kind of tyranny of the majority that they crave.

thats some shit to talk considering obama just spent 3 years BSing you and the rest of the poodles, but then again, thats why you're a trained poodle.

and that permanent minority crap is so ignorant its hard to come up with an adjective to describe it.

 

[Flopper]

Or they could have used the laws in place -- bankruptcy -- to restructure their debt and keep working at no cost to the taxpayer.

Of course, the unions would have taken a hit, and that would not have been acceptable.

Oh, you didn't know? The bailout was to the UAW -- GM was just the middleman.

There was no private-sector financing available in 2009 and the bailout was the only way to keep the companies alive. Without it, GM and Chrysler would have gone out of business, taking down many suppliers. That would have likely caused bankruptcies at the healthier automakers such Ford, who would not have been able to get the parts they needed to build cars. That is why Ford went to Capitol Hill in late 2008 pushing for the rescue of its rivals.

What the opposition can't accept is the reorganization worked. Both GM and Chrysler became profitable and America came out of the worst recession since the great depression. Obama shattered the right's dream of the destruction of the American economy which could have been the foundation of a new conservative America build on conservative ideology.

Yes, and Obama's progressive economy is working SO good right now.

It's working fine for me. The stock market just hit an all time. Housing prices continue to improve. Everyone in the family has a job and the economic outlook for next year is pretty good, a hell of an improvement over 4 years ago.

 

[daveman]

There was no private-sector financing available in 2009 and the bailout was the only way to keep the companies alive. Without it, GM and Chrysler would have gone out of business, taking down many suppliers. That would have likely caused bankruptcies at the healthier automakers such Ford, who would not have been able to get the parts they needed to build cars. That is why Ford went to Capitol Hill in late 2008 pushing for the rescue of its rivals.

What the opposition can't accept is the reorganization worked. Both GM and Chrysler became profitable and America came out of the worst recession since the great depression. Obama shattered the right's dream of the destruction of the American economy which could have been the foundation of a new conservative America build on conservative ideology.

Yes, and Obama's progressive economy is working SO good right now.

It's working fine for me. The stock market just hit an all time. Housing prices continue to improve. Everyone in the family has a job and the economic outlook for next year is pretty good, a hell of an improvement over 4 years ago.

Well, then, you got yours, so FUCK everybody else!!

Isn't that what you morons complain about conservatives believing?

 

[thereisnospoon]

Shit, we wasted that much every week in Iraq when the repukes were in charge.

And Afghanistan?
In reality, both are impertinent to the subject matter.
The federal government should not have invested taxpayer dollars into a failing private industry with no expectation of return on investment. In other words, the Obama administration should have placed the condition on GM that the company repay every dime it received. If not, the company liquidated and the taxpayers reimbursed.

 

[thereisnospoon]

GM is not Detroit and vice versa.

We also are footing the $24 Billion bill from the GOP temper tantrum that shut down the government...

The easiest way to determine when a lib has zero rebuttal in a discussion....When they toss in unrelated stuff in the hopes the discussion can be derailed.
Nice try.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I've yet to see any actual proof on this...you gotta a link?

Shutdown took $24 billion bite out of economy - Oct. 16, 2013

That is not a bill we are footing. That is an estimate of money which wasn't spent and thus isn't circulating in the U.S. economy. Some of the money could have been spent if the Obama administration hadn't insisted on posting guards to shut down sites which had been allowed to operate during past governmental shut downs.


Curious how you call the shutdown a GOP temper tantrum when

A) Obama and the Democrats are the ones who said they would not compromise even it if it meant defaulting on our debts and

B) the past month has thoroughly vindicated Republicans on what they were protesting against.

Compromise?!! Obama and Reid both stated they would not negotiate.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Shutdown took $24 billion bite out of economy - Oct. 16, 2013

Thanks, although I see no blame assigning. With Democrats holding 66.6% of the federal elected power a minimum of 18 billion would fall on them if you wanted to be fair.

It was only the GOP that shut down the government and they have been rightfully blamed for it no matter how pathetically they try to imply otherwise.

That is your opinion.

 

[JoeB131]

Yes, and Obama's progressive economy is working SO good right now.

It's working fine for me. The stock market just hit an all time. Housing prices continue to improve. Everyone in the family has a job and the economic outlook for next year is pretty good, a hell of an improvement over 4 years ago.

Well, then, you got yours, so FUCK everybody else!!

Isn't that what you morons complain about conservatives believing?

Well, no, what we complain about is that you guys are fine with other people getting fucked as long as you got yours.

This year, I'm going to post my best year ever. Of course, I'm having to work two jobs and a side business to to it. My side business is going to make twice what it made last year.

 

[OnePercenter]

Shutdown took $24 billion bite out of economy - Oct. 16, 2013

That is not a bill we are footing. That is an estimate of money which wasn't spent and thus isn't circulating in the U.S. economy. Some of the money could have been spent if the Obama administration hadn't insisted on posting guards to shut down sites which had been allowed to operate during past governmental shut downs.


Curious how you call the shutdown a GOP temper tantrum when

A) Obama and the Democrats are the ones who said they would not compromise even it if it meant defaulting on our debts and

B) the past month has thoroughly vindicated Republicans on what they were protesting against.

Compromise?!! Obama and Reid both stated they would not negotiate.

Compromise on what? The left want ACA because it's the only thing you middle class guys have left since Reagan deregulated the insurance industry, and the right wants the Koch pipeline and deregulating environmental regulations.