USS Liberty Remembered At Navy Memorial

[dilloduck]

There is so much controversy surrounding the attack on the Liberty that saying what really happened depends on who you believe.

I believe the men who were there, not the explanations of any government.

So the fact that a few crazy, antisemitic manpigs just so happened to be in the area means that they are fully qualified to speak on the political motives behind an alleged attack?

Let's pretend for a moment that the hateful, paranoid assertions made by the crew of the Liberty are accurate. Where did they get this information? Were the Israeli pilots shouting "WE'RE EGYPTIAN, PLEASE IGNORE THICK HEBREW ACCENT"? Were the torpedoes marked with "Made in Egypt and totally not Israel"? How could any soldier on the front lines of a battle possibly know the top secret plans of the upper echelons of the Israeli military?

You're seriously calling members of the USS liberty anti semitic manpigs ? Does that include the ones that were killed by Israel ?

 

[Discombobulated]

As stated in the OP's article: "Survivors and their supporters have long claimed that Israel deliberately attacked the Liberty with the intention of sinking it and then blaming the attack on Egypt."

This is all antisemitic nonsense, however. This was an incident of friendly fire, nothing more. The U.S. has killed thousands of allied foreign soldiers and civilians over the years--and even many of its own troops. You're bound to make an honest mistake once in a while. The fact that Israel has never attacked the U.S. again proves that this wasn't an act of aggression, but rather defense. It's the fault of the U.S. for stationing such a threatening-looking ship so close to Israel, where it had no business being. The Israelis were correct in their natural instinct to defend themselves.

You are clearly not familiar with the details of the incident.

Oh really? I come from a Jewish background, conservatard--I've been attacked with this "hurr u sank liberty, u killed jesus, u did 9/11, u funded hitler" nonsense from my very first DAY on the planet. I'd say I'm very familiar with the details of this incident that bigots like you refuse to let me forget.

But by all means, Holocaust me again. Force me to relive the ONE time my people have made a mistake in the past one hundred years. Enlighten me with the oh-so-mysterious "details of the incident" that I "clearly" am "not familiar with".

Unfortunate that you can't separate your personal bias from this incident.

 

[georgephillip]

"After the Israeli fighter aircraft completed their attacks, three Israeli torpedo boats arrived and began a surface attack about 35 minutes after the start of the air attack.

"The torpedo boats launched a total of five torpedoes, one of which struck the side of USS Liberty, opposite the ship's research spaces. [20]

"Twenty-six Americans in addition to the eight who had been killed in the earlier air attacks, were killed as a result of this explosion.

"Following their torpedo attack, the torpedo boats moved up and down the length of the ship (both the port and starboard sides), continuing their attack, raking the ship with cannon and machine gun fire.[21]

"In Malta, crewmen were later assigned the task of counting all of the holes in the ship that were the size of a man's hand or larger. They found a total of 861 such holes, in addition to 'thousands' of .50 caliber machine gun holes.

"Survivors report that the torpedo boat crews swept the decks of USS Liberty with continuous machine gun fire, targeting communications equipment and any crewmembers who ventured above decks.[22]

"Damage control firefighters, who had already risked their lives merely by appearing on deck, had to abandon their efforts because their fire hoses had been shredded by machine gun fire.[23]

"Survivors also report that the torpedo boat crews fired on the inflated life boats launched by the crew after the captain gave the order 'prepare to abandon ship.'[24]

"This order had to be rescinded because the crew was unable to stand on the main deck without being fired upon and the life rafts were destroyed as they were launched.[25]"

Do you think that might be a clue as to intent?

USS Liberty Memorial: Summary of Events

 

[Kondor3]

...I believe the men who were there, not the explanations of any government.

I believe that the men on the USS Liberty believed that they were fired upon intentionally, and I do not doubt their truthfulness in giving us that opinion.

I just don't see the logic in an intentional attack, from the Israeli perspective.

What would they gain from an intentional attack upon a US naval vessel?

And we should doubt the testimony of the survivors based on what? Government explanations?

To be brutally honest, I just don't know.

 

[Discombobulated]

"After the Israeli fighter aircraft completed their attacks, three Israeli torpedo boats arrived and began a surface attack about 35 minutes after the start of the air attack.

"The torpedo boats launched a total of five torpedoes, one of which struck the side of USS Liberty, opposite the ship's research spaces. [20]

"Twenty-six Americans in addition to the eight who had been killed in the earlier air attacks, were killed as a result of this explosion.

"Following their torpedo attack, the torpedo boats moved up and down the length of the ship (both the port and starboard sides), continuing their attack, raking the ship with cannon and machine gun fire.[21]

"In Malta, crewmen were later assigned the task of counting all of the holes in the ship that were the size of a man's hand or larger. They found a total of 861 such holes, in addition to 'thousands' of .50 caliber machine gun holes.

"Survivors report that the torpedo boat crews swept the decks of USS Liberty with continuous machine gun fire, targeting communications equipment and any crewmembers who ventured above decks.[22]

"Damage control firefighters, who had already risked their lives merely by appearing on deck, had to abandon their efforts because their fire hoses had been shredded by machine gun fire.[23]

"Survivors also report that the torpedo boat crews fired on the inflated life boats launched by the crew after the captain gave the order 'prepare to abandon ship.'[24]

"This order had to be rescinded because the crew was unable to stand on the main deck without being fired upon and the life rafts were destroyed as they were launched.[25]"

Do you think that might be a clue as to intent?

USS Liberty Memorial: Summary of Events

Someone in the Israeli chain of command fucked up, then the US and Israeli governments had to collude on an explanation so relations between the two would not be publicly undermined. It's really not so difficult to understand.

 

[Kondor3]

I missed the bold highlighting earlier, on the 'blame it on Egypt' text.

Questions:

1. were the Israeli warplanes involved, clearly marked as Israeli?

2. were the Israeli naval vessels involved, clearly marked as Israeli?

3. do you think the Israelis knew that the ship was equipped with radios?

4. do you think the Israelis knew there would be survivors of the first pass, who could radio a call for help, along with an ID for the attacking party?

If the answers to all of the above are 'yes', then, I don't see how the Israelis could have hoped to 'blame Egypt', and believe that this particular approach needs to be put on the back burner again.

 

[Kondor3]

...Someone in the Israeli chain of command fucked up, then the US and Israeli governments had to collude on an explanation so relations between the two would not be publicly undermined. It's really not so difficult to understand.

I also believe that this is probably true, so...

1. the higher-up did this intentionally

2. the higher-up phukked-up (made a huge mistake) re: target-ID, etc.

I believe that (2) is the more likely of the two explanations.

 

[Discombobulated]

...Someone in the Israeli chain of command fucked up, then the US and Israeli governments had to collude on an explanation so relations between the two would not be publicly undermined. It's really not so difficult to understand.

I also believe that this is probably true, so...

1. the higher-up did this intentionally

2. the higher-up phukked-up (made a huge mistake) re: target-ID, etc.

I believe that (2) is the more likely of the two explanations.

Target ID shouldn't have been a problem after the first attack.

 

[georgephillip]

"After the Israeli fighter aircraft completed their attacks, three Israeli torpedo boats arrived and began a surface attack about 35 minutes after the start of the air attack.

"The torpedo boats launched a total of five torpedoes, one of which struck the side of USS Liberty, opposite the ship's research spaces. [20]

"Twenty-six Americans in addition to the eight who had been killed in the earlier air attacks, were killed as a result of this explosion.

"Following their torpedo attack, the torpedo boats moved up and down the length of the ship (both the port and starboard sides), continuing their attack, raking the ship with cannon and machine gun fire.[21]

"In Malta, crewmen were later assigned the task of counting all of the holes in the ship that were the size of a man's hand or larger. They found a total of 861 such holes, in addition to 'thousands' of .50 caliber machine gun holes.

"Survivors report that the torpedo boat crews swept the decks of USS Liberty with continuous machine gun fire, targeting communications equipment and any crewmembers who ventured above decks.[22]

"Damage control firefighters, who had already risked their lives merely by appearing on deck, had to abandon their efforts because their fire hoses had been shredded by machine gun fire.[23]

"Survivors also report that the torpedo boat crews fired on the inflated life boats launched by the crew after the captain gave the order 'prepare to abandon ship.'[24]

"This order had to be rescinded because the crew was unable to stand on the main deck without being fired upon and the life rafts were destroyed as they were launched.[25]"

Do you think that might be a clue as to intent?

USS Liberty Memorial: Summary of Events

Someone in the Israeli chain of command fucked up, then the US and Israeli governments had to collude on an explanation so relations between the two would not be publicly undermined. It's really not so difficult to understand.

The attack on Liberty is the only event of its kind never to have been investigated by the entire US Congress. Do you think it would be a good idea to do so before all the eyewitnesses die?

 

[Discombobulated]

"After the Israeli fighter aircraft completed their attacks, three Israeli torpedo boats arrived and began a surface attack about 35 minutes after the start of the air attack.

"The torpedo boats launched a total of five torpedoes, one of which struck the side of USS Liberty, opposite the ship's research spaces. [20]

"Twenty-six Americans in addition to the eight who had been killed in the earlier air attacks, were killed as a result of this explosion.

"Following their torpedo attack, the torpedo boats moved up and down the length of the ship (both the port and starboard sides), continuing their attack, raking the ship with cannon and machine gun fire.[21]

"In Malta, crewmen were later assigned the task of counting all of the holes in the ship that were the size of a man's hand or larger. They found a total of 861 such holes, in addition to 'thousands' of .50 caliber machine gun holes.

"Survivors report that the torpedo boat crews swept the decks of USS Liberty with continuous machine gun fire, targeting communications equipment and any crewmembers who ventured above decks.[22]

"Damage control firefighters, who had already risked their lives merely by appearing on deck, had to abandon their efforts because their fire hoses had been shredded by machine gun fire.[23]

"Survivors also report that the torpedo boat crews fired on the inflated life boats launched by the crew after the captain gave the order 'prepare to abandon ship.'[24]

"This order had to be rescinded because the crew was unable to stand on the main deck without being fired upon and the life rafts were destroyed as they were launched.[25]"

Do you think that might be a clue as to intent?

USS Liberty Memorial: Summary of Events

Someone in the Israeli chain of command fucked up, then the US and Israeli governments had to collude on an explanation so relations between the two would not be publicly undermined. It's really not so difficult to understand.

The attack on Liberty is the only event of its kind never to have been investigated by the entire US Congress. Do you think it would be a good idea to do so before all the eyewitnesses die?

I'm guessing members of the intelligence committee were briefed, and that's as far as it will ever go.

 

[Kondor3]

...Someone in the Israeli chain of command fucked up, then the US and Israeli governments had to collude on an explanation so relations between the two would not be publicly undermined. It's really not so difficult to understand.

I also believe that this is probably true, so...

1. the higher-up did this intentionally

2. the higher-up phukked-up (made a huge mistake) re: target-ID, etc.

I believe that (2) is the more likely of the two explanations.

Target ID shouldn't have been a problem after the first attack.

Yes, I find that problematic, as well.

1. once they'd made the mistake, the Israelis continued attacking, in an attempt to cover their mistake

2. the Israelis on the scene did not believe the American flag, etc., used to identify the Liberty, given the level of wartime paranoia at work, at the time

3. Israeli command was slow to call off the attacking force and that force was obliged to continue attacking until it received a cease-fire order

4. something else that I've missed

Personally, my money is on (2) or (3), but, who knows?

 

[georgephillip]

Someone in the Israeli chain of command fucked up, then the US and Israeli governments had to collude on an explanation so relations between the two would not be publicly undermined. It's really not so difficult to understand.

The attack on Liberty is the only event of its kind never to have been investigated by the entire US Congress. Do you think it would be a good idea to do so before all the eyewitnesses die?

I'm guessing members of the intelligence committee were briefed, and that's as far as it will ever go.

Briefed by whom?

 

[Discombobulated]

The attack on Liberty is the only event of its kind never to have been investigated by the entire US Congress. Do you think it would be a good idea to do so before all the eyewitnesses die?

I'm guessing members of the intelligence committee were briefed, and that's as far as it will ever go.

Briefed by whom?

I would guess they were briefed by ONI and possibly some other naval command personnel.

 

[georgephillip]

I'm guessing members of the intelligence committee were briefed, and that's as far as it will ever go.

Briefed by whom?

I would guess they were briefed by ONI and possibly some other naval command personnel.

Here's what Thomas Moorer thought:

"'The Israelis maintain this was simply a case of mistaken identity, but this clearly does not hold water,' said Moorer, who was chief of naval operations at the time of the attack. 'In clear visibility, this unique ship was very easy to identify.

"'The Israeli forces circled the ship and then proceeded to attack over an extended period of time. There is Simply no way the fighter pilots and torpedo boat crews could have come to such a conclusion,' he said.

"Moorer, a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, joined a dozen surviving crew members of the USS Liberty at a seminar during the annual convention of the American Arab AntiDiscrimination Committee in Washington.

"He suggested the incident was a deliberate attack to prevent the Liberty from picking up signals that could have forewarned the United States of an Israeli military push into Syria the next day.

"'Based on the way this tragedy was handled, both in the United States and Israel, one must conclude there is much information that has not been made available to the public,' Moorer said.

"The U.S. 6th Fleet, positioned nearby, received a distress call from the Liberty, and one carrier dispatched a squadron to search for the disabled ship. Before the ship was found, the fleet received orders from Washington ordering the planes back.

"Moorer called on Congress to, once and for all clear up the uncertainties, speculation and unanswered questions surrounding this tragedy, which is still thought by many to be a deliberate coverup on the part of the government of Israel as well as the government of the United States."

USS Liberty - Israeli Pilot Speaks Up

 

[Discombobulated]

I also believe that this is probably true, so...

1. the higher-up did this intentionally

2. the higher-up phukked-up (made a huge mistake) re: target-ID, etc.

I believe that (2) is the more likely of the two explanations.

Target ID shouldn't have been a problem after the first attack.

Yes, I find that problematic, as well.

1. once they'd made the mistake, the Israelis continued attacking, in an attempt to cover their mistake

2. the Israelis on the scene did not believe the American flag, etc., used to identify the Liberty, given the level of wartime paranoia at work, at the time

3. Israeli command was slow to call off the attacking force and that force was obliged to continue attacking until it received a cease-fire order

4. something else that I've missed

Personally, my money is on (2) or (3), but, who knows?

US naval units were slow to respond to the distress calls, which brings other questions into the conversation.

 

[LiberalMedia]

I believe the men who were there, not the explanations of any government.

So the fact that a few crazy, antisemitic manpigs just so happened to be in the area means that they are fully qualified to speak on the political motives behind an alleged attack?

Let's pretend for a moment that the hateful, paranoid assertions made by the crew of the Liberty are accurate. Where did they get this information? Were the Israeli pilots shouting "WE'RE EGYPTIAN, PLEASE IGNORE THICK HEBREW ACCENT"? Were the torpedoes marked with "Made in Egypt and totally not Israel"? How could any soldier on the front lines of a battle possibly know the top secret plans of the upper echelons of the Israeli military?

You're seriously calling members of the USS liberty anti semitic manpigs ? Does that include the ones that were killed by Israel ?

It includes only the ones who have made antisemitic allegations that this was a deliberate attack.

 

[LiberalMedia]

I believe the men who were there, not the explanations of any government.

So the fact that a few crazy, antisemitic manpigs just so happened to be in the area means that they are fully qualified to speak on the political motives behind an alleged attack?

Let's pretend for a moment that the hateful, paranoid assertions made by the crew of the Liberty are accurate. Where did they get this information? Were the Israeli pilots shouting "WE'RE EGYPTIAN, PLEASE IGNORE THICK HEBREW ACCENT"? Were the torpedoes marked with "Made in Egypt and totally not Israel"? How could any soldier on the front lines of a battle possibly know the top secret plans of the upper echelons of the Israeli military?

I see, so then there's a conspiracy of survivors to denigrate Israel. When in doubt blame the victims.

First, it's not a conspiracy, it's a fact as clearly demonstrated by the presence of antisemitic threads like this one. Second, the only victims here are the Israeli government and its people, and Jews worldwide that will suffer condescending, antisemitic attacks like I have endured in this very thread, all because of a few angry, confused sailors making ridiculous allegations.

 

[LiberalMedia]

I believe that the men on the USS Liberty believed that they were fired upon intentionally, and I do not doubt their truthfulness in giving us that opinion.

I just don't see the logic in an intentional attack, from the Israeli perspective.

What would they gain from an intentional attack upon a US naval vessel?

As stated in the OP's article: "Survivors and their supporters have long claimed that Israel deliberately attacked the Liberty with the intention of sinking it and then blaming the attack on Egypt."

This is all antisemitic nonsense, however. This was an incident of friendly fire, nothing more. The U.S. has killed thousands of allied foreign soldiers and civilians over the years--and even many of its own troops. You're bound to make an honest mistake once in a while. The fact that Israel has never attacked the U.S. again proves that this wasn't an act of aggression, but rather defense. It's the fault of the U.S. for stationing such a threatening-looking ship so close to Israel, where it had no business being. The Israelis were correct in their natural instinct to defend themselves.

The fact that Israel hasn't attacked another US vessel proves NOTHING.

So you're saying that Israel did attack in aggression, but for some unknown reason, has refused to do so any time since the alleged attack on the Liberty?

 

[dilloduck]

As stated in the OP's article: "Survivors and their supporters have long claimed that Israel deliberately attacked the Liberty with the intention of sinking it and then blaming the attack on Egypt."

This is all antisemitic nonsense, however. This was an incident of friendly fire, nothing more. The U.S. has killed thousands of allied foreign soldiers and civilians over the years--and even many of its own troops. You're bound to make an honest mistake once in a while. The fact that Israel has never attacked the U.S. again proves that this wasn't an act of aggression, but rather defense. It's the fault of the U.S. for stationing such a threatening-looking ship so close to Israel, where it had no business being. The Israelis were correct in their natural instinct to defend themselves.

The fact that Israel hasn't attacked another US vessel proves NOTHING.

So you're saying that Israel did attack in aggression, but for some unknown reason, has refused to do so any time since the alleged attack on the Liberty?

Yes---there were sane reasons for them to attack the Liberty AT THAT TIME. Just as there are very sane reasons for them to never attack again.

 

[georgephillip]

"The U.S. Government had posted the Liberty off the coast of Gaza, in international waters, to monitor developments in the region during the Sixday War. (The Liberty's mission will be discussed in detail below.)

"At dawn 8 June, Israeli aircraft began reconnoitering the ship, some flying so close that the pilots could clearly be seen, and as low as masthead height, obviously photographing it.

"This extensive observation lasted seven hours and involved eight separate observations, at about 0600, 0900, 1000, 1030, 1100, and 1130, 1200 and 1215 p.m.

"U.S. intercept stations twice overheard Israeli pilots reporting that the ship was American.

"The visibility conditions were perfect; the ship's American flag was flying free and clear in a good breeze.

"At 1400 a well coordinated attack by jet aircraft and torpedo boats began. Jets hammered the virtually unarmed ship with cannon and rockets, and napalmed it.

"Its forward machineguns were wiped out in the first firing pass, and whatever transmitting antennas survived that pass were disabled by the second.

"Nine minutes into the attack, crewmen juryrigged a transmitter to an antenna. But the radiomen discovered that four out of five of the ship's radio frequencies, including the international distress frequency, were being jammed.

"Ironically, the only time Liberty could transmit was while the jets were firing their missiles."

USS Liberty - Israeli Pilot Speaks Up