USS Liberty Remembered At Navy Memorial

[Kondor3]

those that they were currently at war with.

They intentionally struck a US Navy ship in order to save their asses from the Egyptians?

Check your history----they were at war with more countries than Egypt. Seriously---study up on this crap before you try to spew about it.

I'm sufficiently up-to-speed on the 1967 Six Day War to participate, thank you.

I repeat the question.

Were you saying that the Israelis struck a US Navy ship in order to save their asses from the Egyptians?

Or the Arab attacking coalition?

How would striking a US Navy ship 'save them'?

A little less distraction and a little more straightforward responsiveness would be helpful to your cause at this juncture.

Please be a little more specific.

 

[Kondor3]

They intentionally struck a US Navy ship in order to save their asses from the Egyptians?

The little Kondi boy just loves to show off his anti-American stripes!

Are you back for more, my little Arab Butt Buddy?

Don't start something you can't finish (again), boy.

Now... back to the kiddie table with you, while the grown-ups sort this out.

 

[Kondor3]

An op-ed piece by a pro-Arab / anti-Israeli activist lobby?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Report_on_Middle_East_Affairs

Written by a junior officer-survivor on the Liberty with an axe to grind and a secondary career and obsession with pushing the 'intentional targeting' side of the story.

Ummmm... probably safer to stay away from those... doesn't mean they're wrong... but they sure-as-hell can be slammed for their one-sided conclusions.

A Liberty crewman could not possibly have known the motive for such an attack.

A Liberty crewman could not possibly have articulated a benefit to Israel for such an attack commensurate with the risk to goodwill, munitions flow, etc.

And the main question still stands...

What possible benefit could the Israelis achieve, by hitting a US Naval vessel intentionally, which outweighed the risk of loss of goodwill and munitions supply pipeline and diplomatic cover at the UN?

We're all waiting for this illumination, backed with a few facts or even respectable likelihoods.

==========================

Israeli Pilot Speaks Up
Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery.

Key members of the Lyndon Johnson administration have long agreed that this attack was no accident. Perhaps most outspoken is former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Thomas Moorer. "I can never accept the claim that this was a mistaken attack," he insists.

Former Secretary of State Dean Rusk is equally outspoken, calling the attack deliberate in press and radio interviews. Similarly strong language comes from top leaders of the Central Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency (some of whose personnel were among the victims), National Security Council, and from presidential advisers such as Clark Clifford, Joseph Califano and Lucius Battle.

A top-secret analysis of Israel's excuse conducted by the Department of State found Israel's story to be untrue. Yet Israel and its defenders continue to stand by their claim that the attack was a "tragic accident" in which Israel mistook the most modern electronic surveillance vessel in the world for a rusted-out 40-year-old Egyptian horse transport.

Washington Report on Middle East Affairs - The Assault on the USS Liberty Still Covered Up After 26 Years

 

[whitehall]

We know what happened to the Liberty. Did anybody take responsibility for the 17 dead Sailors and 39 injured when the USS Cole was attacked? Is anybody calling for an investigation? Politics is a bitch.

 

[Pete7469]

While I support the Israelis in their current conflict, the sinking of the USS Liberty shouldn't be overlooked or forgotten.

 

[georgephillip]

We know what happened to the Liberty. Did anybody take responsibility for the 17 dead Sailors and 39 injured when the USS Cole was attacked? Is anybody calling for an investigation? Politics is a bitch.

We know both attacks were deliberate.

"U.S. FBI and NCIS agents sent to Yemen to investigate the bombing worked in an extremely hostile environment.

"They were met at the airport by Yemen special forces with 'each soldier pointing an AK-47'. Speakers in the Yemeni parliament 'calling for jihad against America', were broadcast on local television each night.

"After some delay, Yemenis produced a CCTV video from a harborside security camera, but the crucial moment of the explosion was deleted.[17] 'There were so many perceived threats that the agents often slept in their clothes and with their weapons at their sides'.

"At one point, the hotel where the agents stayed 'was surrounded with men in traditional dress, some in jeeps, all carrying guns'.

"Finally the agents abandoned their hotel to stay at a Navy vessel in the Bay of Aden, but even that was not safe.

"After being granted 'permission from the Yemeni government to fly back to shore', their helicopter 'was painted by an SA-7 missile' and 'had to take evasive maneuvers'".[18]

USS Cole bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kondor3]

While I support the Israelis in their current conflict, the sinking of the USS Liberty shouldn't be overlooked or forgotten.

Totally agree.

In the same vein, the USS Liberty incident should not be politicized by those trying to portray Israel in an American-unfriendly light, while our ally is at-war with its sworn enemy.

A cynical and despicable use of the ghosts of those brave American sailors.

To those who say: the Israelis attacked the USS Liberty deliberately and with malice aforethought...

I ask again: What possible advantage or benefit could the Israelis possibly have expected from sinking the USS Liberty, that so outweighed the risks and dangers and potential loss of goodwill and munitions deals, etc., that they would have proceeded?

So far, we have yet to see an intelligent and plausible answer from the "The Israelis did it on purpose" crowd.

Most 'crickets'.

And endless repetition of the accusation, without substance to back it up, as if endless repetition will somehow establish Intentions and Motives as fact.

Any parrot can do that.

 

[Discombobulated]

While I support the Israelis in their current conflict, the sinking of the USS Liberty shouldn't be overlooked or forgotten.

Totally agree.

In the same vein, the USS Liberty incident should not be politicized by those trying to portray Israel in an American-unfriendly light, while our ally is at-war with its sworn enemy.

A cynical and despicable use of the ghosts of those brave American sailors.

To those who say: the Israelis attacked the USS Liberty deliberately and with malice aforethought...

I ask again: What possible advantage or benefit could the Israelis possibly have expected from sinking the USS Liberty, that so outweighed the risks and dangers and potential loss of goodwill and munitions deals, etc., that they would have proceeded?

So far, we have yet to see an intelligent and plausible answer from the "The Israelis did it on purpose" crowd.

Clearly mistakes were made, target misidentification was not among them.

 

[Kondor3]

While I support the Israelis in their current conflict, the sinking of the USS Liberty shouldn't be overlooked or forgotten.

Totally agree.

In the same vein, the USS Liberty incident should not be politicized by those trying to portray Israel in an American-unfriendly light, while our ally is at-war with its sworn enemy.

A cynical and despicable use of the ghosts of those brave American sailors.

To those who say: the Israelis attacked the USS Liberty deliberately and with malice aforethought...

I ask again: What possible advantage or benefit could the Israelis possibly have expected from sinking the USS Liberty, that so outweighed the risks and dangers and potential loss of goodwill and munitions deals, etc., that they would have proceeded?

So far, we have yet to see an intelligent and plausible answer from the "The Israelis did it on purpose" crowd.

Clearly mistakes were made, target misidentification was not among them.

Quite possibly. I think we're looking at a case of 'Who knew what, and when did they know it?'

Again, the ugly question bubbles to the surface: "What possible advantage would be obtained by the Israelis for intentionally attacking the USS Liberty?"

 

[georgephillip]

While I support the Israelis in their current conflict, the sinking of the USS Liberty shouldn't be overlooked or forgotten.

Totally agree.

In the same vein, the USS Liberty incident should not be politicized by those trying to portray Israel in an American-unfriendly light, while our ally is at-war with its sworn enemy.

A cynical and despicable use of the ghosts of those brave American sailors.

To those who say: the Israelis attacked the USS Liberty deliberately and with malice aforethought...

I ask again: What possible advantage or benefit could the Israelis possibly have expected from sinking the USS Liberty, that so outweighed the risks and dangers and potential loss of goodwill and munitions deals, etc., that they would have proceeded?

So far, we have yet to see an intelligent and plausible answer from the "The Israelis did it on purpose" crowd.

Most 'crickets'.

And endless repetition of the accusation, without substance to back it up, as if endless repetition will somehow establish Intentions and Motives as fact.

Any parrot can do that.

Can you tell us how much ammunition Israel was receiving from the US in '67?

 

[Peach]

While I support the Israelis in their current conflict, the sinking of the USS Liberty shouldn't be overlooked or forgotten.

Totally agree.

In the same vein, the USS Liberty incident should not be politicized by those trying to portray Israel in an American-unfriendly light, while our ally is at-war with its sworn enemy.

A cynical and despicable use of the ghosts of those brave American sailors.

To those who say: the Israelis attacked the USS Liberty deliberately and with malice aforethought...

I ask again: What possible advantage or benefit could the Israelis possibly have expected from sinking the USS Liberty, that so outweighed the risks and dangers and potential loss of goodwill and munitions deals, etc., that they would have proceeded?

So far, we have yet to see an intelligent and plausible answer from the "The Israelis did it on purpose" crowd.

Most 'crickets'.

And endless repetition of the accusation, without substance to back it up, as if endless repetition will somehow establish Intentions and Motives as fact.

Any parrot can do that.

It was a failure in signal systems, and navigation; the Liberty never received the CPA changes, thus was only 7.5 miles rom Israel. Israael gained -0- from hitting her, and lost time addressing the tragedy.

 

[georgephillip]

While I support the Israelis in their current conflict, the sinking of the USS Liberty shouldn't be overlooked or forgotten.

Totally agree.

In the same vein, the USS Liberty incident should not be politicized by those trying to portray Israel in an American-unfriendly light, while our ally is at-war with its sworn enemy.

A cynical and despicable use of the ghosts of those brave American sailors.

To those who say: the Israelis attacked the USS Liberty deliberately and with malice aforethought...

I ask again: What possible advantage or benefit could the Israelis possibly have expected from sinking the USS Liberty, that so outweighed the risks and dangers and potential loss of goodwill and munitions deals, etc., that they would have proceeded?

So far, we have yet to see an intelligent and plausible answer from the "The Israelis did it on purpose" crowd.

Most 'crickets'.

And endless repetition of the accusation, without substance to back it up, as if endless repetition will somehow establish Intentions and Motives as fact.

Any parrot can do that.

It was a failure in signal systems, and navigation; the Liberty never received the CPA changes, thus was only 7.5 miles rom Israel. Israael gained -0- from hitting her, and lost time addressing the tragedy.

Do you have a link?

"At 1400 hours, while approximately 17 miles off the Gaza coast, USS Liberty's crew observed three surface radar contacts closing with their position at high speed. A few moments later, the bridge radar crew observed high speed aircraft passing over the surface returns on the same heading.[16]

"Within a few short moments, and without any warning, Israeli fighter..."

USS Liberty Memorial: Summary of Events

 

[Peach]

Totally agree.

In the same vein, the USS Liberty incident should not be politicized by those trying to portray Israel in an American-unfriendly light, while our ally is at-war with its sworn enemy.

A cynical and despicable use of the ghosts of those brave American sailors.

To those who say: the Israelis attacked the USS Liberty deliberately and with malice aforethought...

I ask again: What possible advantage or benefit could the Israelis possibly have expected from sinking the USS Liberty, that so outweighed the risks and dangers and potential loss of goodwill and munitions deals, etc., that they would have proceeded?

So far, we have yet to see an intelligent and plausible answer from the "The Israelis did it on purpose" crowd.

Most 'crickets'.

And endless repetition of the accusation, without substance to back it up, as if endless repetition will somehow establish Intentions and Motives as fact.

Any parrot can do that.

It was a failure in signal systems, and navigation; the Liberty never received the CPA changes, thus was only 7.5 miles rom Israel. Israael gained -0- from hitting her, and lost time addressing the tragedy.

Do you have a link?

"At 1400 hours, while approximately 17 miles off the Gaza coast, USS Liberty's crew observed three surface radar contacts closing with their position at high speed. A few moments later, the bridge radar crew observed high speed aircraft passing over the surface returns on the same heading.[16]

"Within a few short moments, and without any warning, Israeli fighter..."

USS Liberty Memorial: Summary of Events

Here is quick one, common knowledge is rarely "linked".

 

[georgephillip]

It was a failure in signal systems, and navigation; the Liberty never received the CPA changes, thus was only 7.5 miles rom Israel. Israael gained -0- from hitting her, and lost time addressing the tragedy.

Do you have a link?

"At 1400 hours, while approximately 17 miles off the Gaza coast, USS Liberty's crew observed three surface radar contacts closing with their position at high speed. A few moments later, the bridge radar crew observed high speed aircraft passing over the surface returns on the same heading.[16]

"Within a few short moments, and without any warning, Israeli fighter..."

USS Liberty Memorial: Summary of Events

Here is quick one, common knowledge is rarely "linked".

You make it up as you go along?
Got it.

 

[Peach]

Do you have a link?

"At 1400 hours, while approximately 17 miles off the Gaza coast, USS Liberty's crew observed three surface radar contacts closing with their position at high speed. A few moments later, the bridge radar crew observed high speed aircraft passing over the surface returns on the same heading.[16]

"Within a few short moments, and without any warning, Israeli fighter..."

USS Liberty Memorial: Summary of Events

Here is quick one, common knowledge is rarely "linked".

You make it up as you go along?
Got it.

No, and you have already revealed yourself as bigot:

USS Liberty incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Discombobulated]

Here is quick one, common knowledge is rarely "linked".

You make it up as you go along?
Got it.

No, and you have already revealed yourself as bigot:

USS Liberty incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Interesting Wikipedia article, makes it clear that target misidentification at the time of the torpedo attack would have been impossible......unless you believe Israeli naval personnel are completely incompetent.

 

[Peach]

You make it up as you go along?
Got it.

No, and you have already revealed yourself as bigot:

USS Liberty incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Interesting Wikipedia article, makes it clear that target misidentification at the time of the torpedo attack would have been impossible......unless you believe Israeli naval personnel are completely incompetent.

I do not read it that way, Israel had warned of danger for 100 miles out, the Liberty was within 15-18 miles. A tragic error, Israel hand -0- to gain, and a lot to lose from this.

 

[Discombobulated]

No, and you have already revealed yourself as bigot:

USS Liberty incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Interesting Wikipedia article, makes it clear that target misidentification at the time of the torpedo attack would have been impossible......unless you believe Israeli naval personnel are completely incompetent.

I do not read it that way, Israel had warned of danger for 100 miles out, the Liberty was within 15-18 miles. A tragic error, Israel hand -0- to gain, and a lot to lose from this.

That doesn't really explain attacking at close range with torpedoes, cannon and machine guns without recognizing an American naval intelligence vessel. The large communications gathering equipment on huge lattice structures is kind of a dead give away. The USS Liberty looked nothing like any Egyptian ships.

 

[Peach]

Interesting Wikipedia article, makes it clear that target misidentification at the time of the torpedo attack would have been impossible......unless you believe Israeli naval personnel are completely incompetent.

I do not read it that way, Israel had warned of danger for 100 miles out, the Liberty was within 15-18 miles. A tragic error, Israel hand -0- to gain, and a lot to lose from this.

That doesn't really explain attacking at close range with torpedoes, cannon and machine guns without recognizing an American naval intelligence vessel. The large communications gathering equipment on huge lattice structures is kind of a dead give away. The USS Liberty looked nothing like any Egyptian ships.

Here are the US errors:

With the outbreak of war, Captain William L. McGonagle of the Liberty immediately asked Vice Admiral William I. Martin at the United States Sixth Fleet headquarters to send a destroyer to accompany the Liberty and serve as its armed escort and as an auxiliary communications center. The following day, 6 June, Admiral Martin replied: "Liberty is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters, not a participant in the conflict and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation. Request denied."[16]
U.S. Ambassador Arthur Goldberg said to the Security Council that aircraft of the Sixth Fleet were several hundred miles from the conflict,[12] indicating that elements of the Sixth Fleet itself were far from the conflict. When the statement was made this was the case, since Liberty, now assigned to the Sixth Fleet, was in the central Mediterranean Sea, passing between Libya and Crete;[17] but she would ultimately steam to about 13 nmi (15 mi; 24 km) north of the Sinai Peninsula.[18] According to the Naval Court of Inquiry[20] (p. 23 ff, p. 111 ff) and National Security Agency official history,[21] the order to withdraw was not sent on the radio frequency that USS Liberty monitored for her orders until 15:25 Zulu, several hours after the attack, due to a long series of administrative and message routing problems. The Navy said a large volume of unrelated high-precedence traffic, including intelligence intercepts related to the conflict, were being handled at the time; and that this combined with a shortage of qualified Radiomen contributed to delayed sending of the withdrawal message.[20] (p. 111 ff)

Israeli errors:
As Commander Oren headed toward Arish, he was informed by Naval Operations of the reported shelling of Arish and told that IAF aircraft would be dispatched to the area after the target had been detected.[29]

Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin was concerned that the supposed Egyptian shelling was the prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank Israeli forces. Rabin reiterated the standing order to sink any unidentified ships in the area, but advised caution, as Soviet vessels were reportedly operating nearby.[23]

At 1:41 pm, the torpedo boats detected an unknown vessel 20 miles northwest of Arish and 14 miles off the coast of Bardawil.[1][31] The ship's speed was estimated on their radars.[31] The Combat Information Center officer on T-204, Ensign Aharon Yifrah, reported to the boat's captain, Commander Moshe Oren, that the target had been detected at a range of 22 miles, that her speed had been tracked for a few minutes, after which he had determined that the target was moving westward at a speed of 30 knots. These data were forwarded to the Fleet Operations Control Center.[31]

The speed of the target was significant because it indicated that the target was a combat vessel.[31] Moreover, Israeli forces had standing orders to fire on any unknown vessels sailing in the area at over 20 knots, a speed which, at the time, could only be attained by warships. The Chief of Naval Operations asked the torpedo boats to double-check their calculations. Yifrah twice recalculated and confirmed his assessment.[23][31] A few minutes later, Commander Oren reported that the target, now 17 miles from his position, was moving at a speed of 28 knots on a different heading.[32] Bamford, however, points out that the Liberty's top speed was far below 28 knots. His sources say that at the time of the attack the Liberty was following its signal-intercept mission course along the northern Sinai coast, at about 5 knots speed.[30]
The data on the ship's speed, together with its direction, indicated that it was an Egyptian destroyer fleeing toward port after shelling Arish. The torpedo boats gave chase, but did not expect to overtake their target before it reached Egypt. Commander Oren requested that the Israeli Air Force dispatch aircraft to intercept.[23][31] At 1:48 pm, the Chief of Naval Operations requested dispatch of fighter aircraft to the ship's location.[33]

Hunt-class destroyer HMS Blean. The Egyptian Navy had Hunt-class destroyers in 1967
The IAF dispatched two Mirage III fighter jets that arrived at Liberty at about 2:00 pm.[34] The formation leader, Captain Iftach Spector, attempted to identify the ship.[34] He communicated via radio to one of the torpedo boats his observation that the ship appeared like a military ship with one smokestack and one mast.[35] Also, he communicated, in effect, that the ship appeared to him like a destroyer or another type of small ship.[35] In a post-attack statement, the pilots said they saw no distinguishable markings or flag on the ship.[35]


Still waiting for any reason Israel would intentionally attack a US Ship.

 

[Peach]

Interesting Wikipedia article, makes it clear that target misidentification at the time of the torpedo attack would have been impossible......unless you believe Israeli naval personnel are completely incompetent.

I do not read it that way, Israel had warned of danger for 100 miles out, the Liberty was within 15-18 miles. A tragic error, Israel hand -0- to gain, and a lot to lose from this.

That doesn't really explain attacking at close range with torpedoes, cannon and machine guns without recognizing an American naval intelligence vessel. The large communications gathering equipment on huge lattice structures is kind of a dead give away. The USS Liberty looked nothing like any Egyptian ships.

Here are the US errors:

With the outbreak of war, Captain William L. McGonagle of the Liberty immediately asked Vice Admiral William I. Martin at the United States Sixth Fleet headquarters to send a destroyer to accompany the Liberty and serve as its armed escort and as an auxiliary communications center. The following day, 6 June, Admiral Martin replied: "Liberty is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters, not a participant in the conflict and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation. Request denied."[16]
U.S. Ambassador Arthur Goldberg said to the Security Council that aircraft of the Sixth Fleet were several hundred miles from the conflict,[12] indicating that elements of the Sixth Fleet itself were far from the conflict. When the statement was made this was the case, since Liberty, now assigned to the Sixth Fleet, was in the central Mediterranean Sea, passing between Libya and Crete;[17] but she would ultimately steam to about 13 nmi (15 mi; 24 km) north of the Sinai Peninsula.[18] According to the Naval Court of Inquiry[20] (p. 23 ff, p. 111 ff) and National Security Agency official history,[21] the order to withdraw was not sent on the radio frequency that USS Liberty monitored for her orders until 15:25 Zulu, several hours after the attack, due to a long series of administrative and message routing problems. The Navy said a large volume of unrelated high-precedence traffic, including intelligence intercepts related to the conflict, were being handled at the time; and that this combined with a shortage of qualified Radiomen contributed to delayed sending of the withdrawal message.[20] (p. 111 ff)

Israeli errors:
As Commander Oren headed toward Arish, he was informed by Naval Operations of the reported shelling of Arish and told that IAF aircraft would be dispatched to the area after the target had been detected.[29]

Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin was concerned that the supposed Egyptian shelling was the prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank Israeli forces. Rabin reiterated the standing order to sink any unidentified ships in the area, but advised caution, as Soviet vessels were reportedly operating nearby.[23]

At 1:41 pm, the torpedo boats detected an unknown vessel 20 miles northwest of Arish and 14 miles off the coast of Bardawil.[1][31] The ship's speed was estimated on their radars.[31] The Combat Information Center officer on T-204, Ensign Aharon Yifrah, reported to the boat's captain, Commander Moshe Oren, that the target had been detected at a range of 22 miles, that her speed had been tracked for a few minutes, after which he had determined that the target was moving westward at a speed of 30 knots. These data were forwarded to the Fleet Operations Control Center.[31]

The speed of the target was significant because it indicated that the target was a combat vessel.[31] Moreover, Israeli forces had standing orders to fire on any unknown vessels sailing in the area at over 20 knots, a speed which, at the time, could only be attained by warships. The Chief of Naval Operations asked the torpedo boats to double-check their calculations. Yifrah twice recalculated and confirmed his assessment.[23][31] A few minutes later, Commander Oren reported that the target, now 17 miles from his position, was moving at a speed of 28 knots on a different heading.[32] Bamford, however, points out that the Liberty's top speed was far below 28 knots. His sources say that at the time of the attack the Liberty was following its signal-intercept mission course along the northern Sinai coast, at about 5 knots speed.[30]
The data on the ship's speed, together with its direction, indicated that it was an Egyptian destroyer fleeing toward port after shelling Arish. The torpedo boats gave chase, but did not expect to overtake their target before it reached Egypt. Commander Oren requested that the Israeli Air Force dispatch aircraft to intercept.[23][31] At 1:48 pm, the Chief of Naval Operations requested dispatch of fighter aircraft to the ship's location.[33]

Hunt-class destroyer HMS Blean. The Egyptian Navy had Hunt-class destroyers in 1967
The IAF dispatched two Mirage III fighter jets that arrived at Liberty at about 2:00 pm.[34] The formation leader, Captain Iftach Spector, attempted to identify the ship.[34] He communicated via radio to one of the torpedo boats his observation that the ship appeared like a military ship with one smokestack and one mast.[35] Also, he communicated, in effect, that the ship appeared to him like a destroyer or another type of small ship.[35] In a post-attack statement, the pilots said they saw no distinguishable markings or flag on the ship.[35]


Still waiting for any reason Israel would intentionally attack a US Ship. And looking at a ship from shore, or a photo thereof, is much different than when at sea...or so my father said, and he had 28-29 years at sea.