Vaccine Mandate Precedent: Jacobson v. Massachusetts

[Skylar]

Poor thing you seem to have missed my edit. Carry on.

.

The edit you made after I posted?

Yeah, that's called sequence. Its a thing that happens in linear time.

 

[TemplarKormac]

However, given the massive impact on the economy caused by COVID, Biden is on far stronger ground than Clinton was when trying to declare violence against women a commerce issue.

Biden is the leader of the Executive branch. The executive branch cannot overtly regulate commerce. Only congress can.

Biden would be overstepping his authority on the matter. The precedent should not change given the circumstances.

If the courts allow Biden to go through with this decision based on economic considerations, then it will render Congress' power to regulate commerce moot, and essentially nullify the Commerce Clause (Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution).

This can only hurt congress and grant the executive even more unwarranted power.

 

[OKTexas]

The edit you made after I posted?

Yeah, that's called sequence. Its a thing that happens in linear time.

I gave you some tidbits, like I said I'll post the other quote when I get to my other computer later. Don't like it, tough.

.

 

[Skylar]

Yes, they do.

A state which employs its own version of OSHA must meet the approval of Federal OSHA. You said so yourself.

No, I said State OSHA regulations must meet the minimum requirements of the OSHA regulations.

The State OSHA boards have no part in the enforcement of this mandate as the mandate is between the federal government and the private businesses. With fines for violations of the mandate issued directly from the federal government to the private business.

IF the Federal OSHA was to require that State OSHA agencies enforce its vaccine mandate (which seems unlikely as most States don't have them), then your sanctuary city analogy would have more relevance.....as the State OSHA's could use their own discretion to prioritize other enforcement and not the priorities of the Federal government. I could see certain states volunteering to assist the federal government....California for example would probably help if allowed.

But Biden's vaccine mandate is directly from the Federal OSHA to the private businesses. It requires nothing of the State OSHA, with both inspection and fines coming directly from the federal OSHA.

In fairness, that dramatically impacts its enforcibility. But Biden could publicly shame companies that fail, costing them in bad publicity and opening them to potential liability. The actual fines are probably not going to be the motivation for most businesses to comply. And if one particular business wanted to defy the vaccine mandate publicly, OSHA could fine them daily. That shit adds up.

 

[TemplarKormac]

No, I said State OSHA regulations must meet the minimum requirements of the OSHA regulations.

State OSHA regulations crafted in accordance with Federal OSHA minimums impact cities too, you know. The cities have to enforce them. Meaning your claim that "OSHA requires nothing of cities" is false.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

There was this pastor in Cambridge, Massachusetts named Henning Jacobson who had a very bad reaction to a vaccine when he was an infant. He had a painful rash for years.

So when, in 1904, the Cambridge board of health mandated that everyone in Cambridge get a smallpox vaccine, Jacobson went into full blown anti-vaxxer mode and refused.

The penalty for not getting the vaccine was $5.00. About $140 in today's funny money.

Jacobson had also strongly urged his son not to get the smallpox vaccine, but there was an employer mandate and so his son got the shot. His son then suffered a painful reaction which kept his arm in a sling for six months.

The Anti-Vaccination Society backed Jacobson's cause all the way to the US Supreme Court.

Like modern day anti-vaxxers, Jacobson argued that vaccines CAUSE disease and he made other dubious claims.

The Court did not allow him to have his "experts" in this spurious bullshit argue before the court.

They ruled 7-2 against Jacobson. This decision was later affirmed by the Supreme Court in 1922, in Zucht v. King.

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)

Jacobson v. Massachusetts: A state may enact a compulsory vaccination law, since the legislature has the discretion to decide whether vaccination is the best way to prevent smallpox and protect public health. The legislature may exempt children from the law without violating the equal protection...

supreme.justia.com

Zucht v. King, 260 U.S. 174 (1922)

Zucht v. King

supreme.justia.com

This case did not involve the federal government

 

[Skylar]

Biden is the leader of the Executive branch. The executive branch cannot overtly regulate commerce. Only congress can.

We're getting back into your Judge Dredd bullshit, where your argument is predicated on you being the law.

Regulatory agencies are embued with the regulatory authority of congress and can create new rules as they need to fulfill the mandate given them. The Supreme Court has found this to be constitutional.

That you disagree is irrelevant. Constitutionally speaking, you're nobody. Any argument you want to make on ACTUAL precedent is worthy of comment. Any argument you want to make on YOU being the supreme legal authority upon which constitutionality is based is meaningless verbal masturbation.

 

[Rogue AI]

The precedent for my opinion that the federal government has the authority to regulate safety in the several states is the existence of OSHA.

OKTexas' opinion that the federal government lacks the authority regulate safety in the several states AND lacks the authority to create OSHA is based on him saying it must be so.

Our sources are not equal.

First you would have demonstrate that covid poses a risk to workplace safety. Otherwise this is out of OSHA's purview.

 

[Skylar]

This case did not involve the federal government

It did not. However, it did refute the claims that the 14th amendment was violated by the State vaccine mandates.

The 14th amendment extends federal privileges and immunities to the the citizens of the several States. Its a heavy lift to argue that the States didn't violate federally recognized rights with vaccine mandates.....but somehow the Federal government would with the same mandates.

If the federal government was going to fail on mandates, it would be on issues of authority. Not rights violations. And in that, the case says nothing.

 

[TemplarKormac]

We're getting back into your Judge Dredd bullshit, where your argument is predicated on you being the law.

Regulatory agencies are embued with the regulatory authority of congress and can create new rules as they need to fulfill the mandate given them. The Supreme Court has found this to be constitutional.

That you disagree is irrelevant. Constitutionally speaking, you're nobody. Any argument you want to make on ACTUAL precedent is worthy of comment. Any argument you want to make on YOU being the supreme legal authority upon which constitutionality is based is meaningless verbal masturbation.

Temper, temper.

If OSHA is a regulatory agency, why is does it report to the Department of Labor, which is a cabinet-level agent of the Executive branch? If this branch had sole regulatory authority imbued on it by Congress, why is the Executive the only branch controlling its machinations?

 

[Skylar]

First you would have demonstrate that covid poses a risk to workplace safety. Otherwise this is out of OSHA's purview.

Unless you can show how being in a worksplace somehow makes you immune to airborne and contagious diseases that have killed 1 in 500 Americans in only 18 months.....then the massive death toll caused by this airborne and contagious pandemic would be evidence of its risk to safety. Including in the workplace.

 

[TemplarKormac]

It did not. However, it did refute the claims that the 14th amendment was violated by the State vaccine mandates.

Funny, because the OSH Act of 1970 empowers OSHA to write regulations that carry the power of law.

Essentially, any regulation OSHA passes is subject to constitutional scrutiny, including but not limited to the 4th (privacy, personal healthcare choices) 5th (vaccine passports), and 14th Amendments (again privacy, personal healthcare choices). The same scrutiny would therefore also apply to state OSHA regulations.

Liberals like you have incessantly dubbed a woman's right to have an abortion as a healthcare choice. So, too should not taking a vaccine.

I am using the very same reasoning set forth in Roe v. Wade, Skylar. If the state (or federal) government cannot restrict whether a woman can or cannot have an abortion, then the state or federal government cannot order someone to put a vaccine into their bodies.

Easy enough, right?

 

[g5000]

Did you get your law degree mail order? Case law since then has poked all kinds of holes in this.

Link?

 

[Skylar]

Temper, temper.

If OSHA is a regulatory agency, why is does it report to the Department of Labor, which is a cabinet-level agent of the Executive branch? If this branch had sole regulatory authority imbued on it by Congress, why is the Executive the only branch controlling its machinations?

Virtually all regulatory agencies report to the some of level of the executive. That's what the executive does.....it executes laws and regulations. And this has been found to be explicitly constitution by the judiciary. As has regulatory agencies creating new rules in pursuance of their congressional mandates.

You say its say its all unconstitutional. The Supreme Court says otherwise. And Federalist 78 is pretty clear on who has the constitutionality delegated authority to intepret the constitution.

Spoiler alert: its not you.

Is this really it? You insisting that your personal opinion trumps the Supreme Court? If so, I'm losing interest.

 

[g5000]

Temper, temper.

If OSHA is a regulatory agency, why is does it report to the Department of Labor, which is a cabinet-level agent of the Executive branch? If this branch had sole regulatory authority imbued on it by Congress, why is the Executive the only branch controlling its machinations?

All federal laws and regulations are enforced by the Executive branch, fool!

Congress writes the laws, the Executive enforces them.

 

[Rogue AI]

Unless you can show how being in a worksplace somehow makes you immune to airborne and contagious diseases that have killed 1 in 500 Americans in only 18 months.....then the massive death toll caused by this airborne and contagious pandemic would be evidence of its risk to safety. Including in the workplace.

What does that have to do with workplace safety? You would need to prove covid was causing workplace injuries or somehow creating an unsafe work environment. What you are talking about is public health, which is not an OSHA responsibility.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Unless you can show how being in a worksplace somehow makes you immune to airborne and contagious diseases that have killed 1 in 500 Americans in only 18 months.....then the massive death toll caused by this airborne and contagious pandemic would be evidence of its risk to safety. Including in the workplace.

"1 in 500 people in 18 months"

Let's review, shall we?

Citing "1 in 500" is a means of instilling fear, ignoring the overall low mortality rate of the disease itself.

Let's do math.

US Population as of now:

333,336,637

Total number of cases in US since the beginning of the Pandemic:

42,460,942

Number of US COVID deaths to date:

684,822

Total mortality rate of COVID-19 in the US:

1.61%

Therefore, the chances of recovery from this disease:

98.39%

Percentage Calculator

United States COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

United States Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.

www.worldometers.info

 

[Skylar]

Funny, because the OSH Act of 1970 empowers OSHA to write regulations that carry the power of law.

Essentially, any regulation OSHA passes is subject to constitutional scrutiny, including but not limited to the 4th, 5th, and 14th Amendments. The same scrutiny would therefore also apply to state OSHA regulations.

Which is relevant to Jacobson V. Mass' refutation of the 14th amendment violation of vaccine mandates...how exactly?

And of course any regulation that OSHA passes is subject to constitutional scrutiny.....by the judiciary. Who is arguing otherwise? Your argument is not only irrelevant to Jacobson's 14th amendment violation rejection, its yet another strawman.

As no one has said that OSHA is above constitutional scrutiny. Ever.

 

[g5000]

What you are talking about is public health, which is not an OSHA responsibility.

Um...you might want to look up what the H in OSHA stands for, skippy.

 

[TemplarKormac]

All federal laws and regulations are enforced by the Executive branch, fool!

Congress writes the laws, the Executive enforces them.

You can't enforce something that's unconstitutional.