Want Peace? End The Occupation

[Auteur]

Auteur et al,

Now my interest is peaked!

What you fail to accept is that the "occupation" that the Arabs want to end is the existence of ANY Jewish State. That's what they teach their kids, and preach in speeches giveb in Arabic.

You're right about chutzpah, though. For the Arabs to think they can "negotiate" Israel out of existence is the epitome of chutzpah.

I've noticed that some Israel supporters here will simply shift focus, or deny if possible, when inconvenient facts surface. The current policy of the PA, and supporting Arab states, is peace- not the destruction Israel. In fact, far from it. The plan awards Israel almost 80% of Palestine, and offers a normalization of relations.

Israel rejects this, and one can only conclude it is because its current position of strength urges it not to accept any sort of change.

(QUESTIONS)

• Where is PA Policy written? Where is this pledge?
  
• When did Hamas change its Charter?
  
• When did the Palestinian Leadership announce a cessation of all hostilities?
  
• How does this policy manifest itself?

I have always thought the actions of men the best interpreters of their thoughts. ~John Locke

Well done is better than well said. ~Benjamin Franklin​

v/r
R

You must be joking Rocco. You yourself reproduced parts of the Saudi peace plan in one of your posts. This is now the position of the PA. Have a look at their website.

 

[georgephillip]

According to Chomksy...

"The fact that the Israel-Palestine conflict grinds on without resolution might appear to be rather strange.

"For many of the world's conflicts, it is difficult even to conjure up a feasible settlement.

"In this case, it is not only possible, but there is near universal agreement on its basic contours: a two-state settlement along the internationally recognized (pre-June 1967) borders -- with 'minor and mutual modifications,' to adopt official U.S. terminology before Washington departed from the international community in the mid-1970s.

"The basic principles have been accepted by virtually the entire world, including the Arab states (who go on to call for full normalization of relations), the Organization of Islamic States (including Iran), and relevant non-state actors (including Hamas).

"A settlement along these lines was first proposed at the U.N. Security Council in January 1976 by the major Arab states.

"Israel refused to attend the session.

"The U.S. vetoed the resolution, and did so again in 1980..."

A Middle East Peace That Could Happen (But Won't): In Washington-Speak, "Palestinian State" Means "Fried Chicken"

Israel appears to profit more from expansion than from peace.

 

[MJB12741]

Thank you for an interesting proposal. My only fear is that such a Palestinian State would still be too close to Israel & could fall under Israeli retaliation if & when Israel is attacked by the Palestinians. Gosh I wonder if Mecca might be a nice place for a Palestinian State.

I am in total support of a Palestinian State. Question is where? The Palestinians want to be free from any control by Israel. And yet no surrounding Arab country will grant their Palestinians a right of return back to their indigenous homelands. Any suggestions?

Divide Lebanon into...

1. Lebanon

2. New Palestine

...and shift the West Bank and Gaza populations to New Palestine; leaving all of Eretz Yisrael to the Jews; with the Israelis and the Arab League splitting the costs of the population shift; supplemented, if need-be, by logistical and financial assistance from the UN.

The Muslims (Hezbollah, etc.) have done a pretty good job of 'cleansing' Lebanese Christians in recent decades so there should be plenty of space available.

Syria is weakened and distracted and unable to interfere in Lebanon the way it has in recent decades since they helped to trash that former paradise-like resort-nation.

 

[MJB12741]

Jordan is the smartest player in the Middle East. Jordan put it to both Israel & the Palestinians by refusing Israel's offer to return the entire West Bank to Jordan after the 67 war for nothing in return so they could sacrifice the West Bank to dump their Palestinians on Israel.

What West Bank? Do you mean the slivers and fragments of the old West Bank that are still (barely) under Palestinian control? It's rather like a collection of scattered and fenced-off cornfields on the edge of sprawling and rapidly expanding city. In another few years all that farmland will be nothing more than a memory, as new housing subdivisions are erected.

 

[Hossfly]

Let us have the kids make decisions. They seem to have more moxie than adults.


Despite the political stalemate between Israel and the Palestinians, research conducted by an American professor reveals that there is still hope for reconciliation and coexistence between the two peoples...via soccer.

Prior to the study, which had the children from both sides play a number of soccer games against one another, 52 percent of the Palestinian participants said they hated all Israelis. Following the study, a full 100 percent of the Palestinians said they would be happy to have Israeli friends.



Soccer melts hatred between Israeli and Palestinian kids - Israel Today | Israel News

Here's how adults "handle" the "Peace Initiatitive".


A prominent Palestinian Arab billionaire has earned the scorn of the Palestinian Authority for the heinous crime of talking peace with Jews who make their homes and conduct business in Judea and Samaria (the so-called "West Bank").

Last month, Munib al-Masri, a Palestinian tycoon and former minister in the Palestinian Authority, led a private effort to get Israelis back on board with the Saudi-authored Arab League Peace Initiative first introduced in 2002.

Israelis viewed the proposal with suspicion because it called for the nearly unconditional surrender of all Judea, Samaria and the eastern half of Jerusalem, while Palestinians were unhappy that the plan stated any solution to the claimed "refugee crisis" must be agreed upon by Israel. The Palestinian Authority continues to insist that Israel open its borders to millions of "Palestinian



Businessman angers fellow Palestinians by talking peace with Jews - Israel Today | Israel News

Incorrect. The wording of the Saudi peace plan is actually left intentionally vague, in order to allow for things like financial compensation, rather than actual return to 1949 homes.

Israel has rejected the plan because it is now in a postion of strength, with a nuclear monopoly, and the unquestioning backing of the US. Either or both of these may well change in the future, at which time a change in barganing positions would also occur. It would be so much better to bargan now, rather than later.

It certainly appears that Auteur can't stand when another Muslim says something that differs from her views. More and more she is beginning to sound like one of those Muslim women belonging to the MSA who create a lot of trouble on college campuses. Is anyone really stopping this women from confronting personally via E-mail all these Muslims who disagree with her? Meanwhile, I wish Auteru can give us a hint as to which forums she is on condemning what her friendly Muslims are doing to innocent people in many locations on the globe. Surely she can't be that consumed with Israel and the Jews to conveniently close her eyes to what is happening elsewhere. By the way, I once read that Arab and Jewish children are brought over here to attend a summer camp where they can meet and interact with each other. If this is still going on, perhaps Auteur can get a visa to the U.S. where she can be a camp counselor and have fun blowing her whistle at the kids while wearing her Arafat headpiece.

 

[Kondor3]

Jordan is the smartest player in the Middle East. Jordan put it to both Israel & the Palestinians by refusing Israel's offer to return the entire West Bank to Jordan after the 67 war for nothing in return so they could sacrifice the West Bank to dump their Palestinians on Israel.

Believable. Nobody else seems to want 'em either. Troublemakers are a pain in the ass.

 

[Hossfly]

"IN ALL this bickering, one basic fact is ignored.

It’s that elephant again.

"The elephant in the room, whose existence Netanyahu denies and which Kerry is trying to ignore.

The occupation.

"The assumption is generally made that the negotiations are between equals. In cartoons, Netanyahu and Abbas appear to be of equal size. The American picture of two reasonable people talking it out between themselves presupposes two more or less equal partners.

"But this whole picture is basically false. The proposed 'negotiations' are between an almighty occupying power and an almost totally powerless occupied people. Between the wolf and the lamb.

"(it’s the old Israeli joke again: Can you keep a wolf and a lamb together? Of course you can, if you put in a new lamb every day.)"

Kerry and Chutzpah » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

What you fail to accept is that the "occupation" that the Arabs want to end is the existence of ANY Jewish State. That's what they teach their kids, and preach in speeches giveb in Arabic.

You're right about chutzpah, though. For the Arabs to think they can "negotiate" Israel out of existence is the epitome of chutzpah.

Racist, fundamentalist Jews direct the same blind hatred toward Arabs that you rightly criticize racist, fundamentalists Arabs for, or do you believe, as Rabbi Abraham Kook did "the difference between a Jewish soul and souls of non-Jews...is greater and deeper than the difference between a human soul and the souls of cattle"? Are you naive enough to believe there are not thousands of IDF troops who believe such tripe?

Are you bringing up Rabbi Kook again while you conveniently overlook all the Muslim clerics trying to incite their members to kill the Christians and the Jews and the rest of the Infidels, which means you, Georgie Boy? George Boy is so pathetic. Whenever he finds something from a miniscule group of Rabbis, he is right there quoting said Rabbi over and over, but of course never says anything about all those many Islamic clerics who would like to see all of us non Muslims either dead or converted to Islam. Georgie Boy is one of those people for whom the word Dhimwit was coined.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

"IN ALL this bickering, one basic fact is ignored.

It’s that elephant again.

"The elephant in the room, whose existence Netanyahu denies and which Kerry is trying to ignore.

The occupation.

"The assumption is generally made that the negotiations are between equals. In cartoons, Netanyahu and Abbas appear to be of equal size. The American picture of two reasonable people talking it out between themselves presupposes two more or less equal partners.

"But this whole picture is basically false. The proposed 'negotiations' are between an almighty occupying power and an almost totally powerless occupied people. Between the wolf and the lamb.

"(it’s the old Israeli joke again: Can you keep a wolf and a lamb together? Of course you can, if you put in a new lamb every day.)"

Kerry and Chutzpah » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

What you fail to accept is that the "occupation" that the Arabs want to end is the existence of ANY Jewish State. That's what they teach their kids, and preach in speeches giveb in Arabic.

You're right about chutzpah, though. For the Arabs to think they can "negotiate" Israel out of existence is the epitome of chutzpah.

Racist, fundamentalist Jews direct the same blind hatred toward Arabs that you rightly criticize racist, fundamentalists Arabs for, or do you believe, as Rabbi Abraham Kook did "the difference between a Jewish soul and souls of non-Jews...is greater and deeper than the difference between a human soul and the souls of cattle"? Are you naive enough to believe there are not thousands of IDF troops who believe such tripe?

I feel no need to indulge your rambling tangential non sequiturs.

 

[RoccoR]

Auteur, et al,

Yep, I've seen the "Saudi" proposal.

You must be joking Rocco. You yourself reproduced parts of the Saudi peace plan in one of your posts. This is now the position of the PA. Have a look at their website.

(COMMENT)

I haven't seen any demonstrated action by the Palestinians moving towards a peace posture.

It would be nice to see both "words" and "deeds."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Auteur]

Auteur, et al,

Yep, I've seen the "Saudi" proposal.

You must be joking Rocco. You yourself reproduced parts of the Saudi peace plan in one of your posts. This is now the position of the PA. Have a look at their website.

(COMMENT)

I haven't seen any demonstrated action by the Palestinians moving towards a peace posture.

It would be nice to see both "words" and "deeds."

Most Respectfully,
R

You haven't seen any demonstrated action? A peace proposal that has world backing, a generous one in that it conceeds considerable issues to Israel's favour, that allows for the retention of territories taken by force (illegal under international law) by Israel, the choice for Israel to limit or deny the return of refugees to the country (providing they are compensated), and your not satisfied?

There will always be a few radicals firing missiles and planting bombs until some sort of resolution is on track here, that's going to be hard to stop under present circumstances. But using that as an excuse to deny peace is a cop out. If you want to talk about words and deads, mention the ongoing settler encroachment and expropriation going on in the west bank. That's hardly a demonstration of sincerity about peace, is it?

 

[RoccoR]

Auteur, et al,

What is your point?

Yep, I've seen the "Saudi" proposal.

You must be joking Rocco. You yourself reproduced parts of the Saudi peace plan in one of your posts. This is now the position of the PA. Have a look at their website.

(COMMENT)

I haven't seen any demonstrated action by the Palestinians moving towards a peace posture.

It would be nice to see both "words" and "deeds."

Most Respectfully,
R

You haven't seen any demonstrated action? A peace proposal that has world backing, a generous one in that it conceeds considerable issues to Israel's favour, that allows for the retention of territories taken by force (illegal under international law) by Israel, the choice for Israel to limit or deny the return of refugees to the country (providing they are compensated), and your not satisfied?

(COMMENT)

• Where have you seen an official proposal by the Palestinians to Israel?
• What are the point of contention?
• Where is the Hamas Charter in this? Have they rescinded it?

There will always be a few radicals firing missiles and planting bombs until some sort of resolution is on track here, that's going to be hard to stop under present circumstances. But using that as an excuse to deny peace is a cop out. If you want to talk about words and deads, mention the ongoing settler encroachment and expropriation going on in the west bank. That's hardly a demonstration of sincerity about peace, is it?

(COMMENT)

I've never denied that Palestinian did not have grievances. But that doesn't mean that I approve of the insurgency effort.

I've always said the neither side has clean hands. But I understand how, after 65 years of continuous insurgent efforts, three wars, major terrorist campaigns, and the propaganda bombardment, that the Palestinians should not expect a soft hand. There is a past history of behavior. And the aggressor has to demonstrate the change. And the aggressor is not the Israelis.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Auteur]

Auteur, et al,

What is your point?

Yep, I've seen the "Saudi" proposal.


(COMMENT)

I haven't seen any demonstrated action by the Palestinians moving towards a peace posture.

It would be nice to see both "words" and "deeds."

Most Respectfully,
R

You haven't seen any demonstrated action? A peace proposal that has world backing, a generous one in that it conceeds considerable issues to Israel's favour, that allows for the retention of territories taken by force (illegal under international law) by Israel, the choice for Israel to limit or deny the return of refugees to the country (providing they are compensated), and your not satisfied?

(COMMENT)

• Where have you seen an official proposal by the Palestinians to Israel?
• What are the point of contention?
• Where is the Hamas Charter in this? Have they rescinded it?

There will always be a few radicals firing missiles and planting bombs until some sort of resolution is on track here, that's going to be hard to stop under present circumstances. But using that as an excuse to deny peace is a cop out. If you want to talk about words and deads, mention the ongoing settler encroachment and expropriation going on in the west bank. That's hardly a demonstration of sincerity about peace, is it?

(COMMENT)

I've never denied that Palestinian did not have grievances. But that doesn't mean that I approve of the insurgency effort.

I've always said the neither side has clean hands. But I understand how, after 65 years of continuous insurgent efforts, three wars, major terrorist campaigns, and the propaganda bombardment, that the Palestinians should not expect a soft hand. There is a past history of behavior. And the aggressor has to demonstrate the change. And the aggressor is not the Israelis.

Most Respectfully,
R

My point is that the PA, the Arab League, and indeed the consensus of world opinion (outside of the usual suspects) is that a reasonable peace plan is on the table. Far from being the reprehensible war mongers you describe, the above have come out with a reasonable, indeed generous, offer of peace, which has been rejected by Israel. It is likely the best deal they are going to get, and should accept it, before everybody and his dog in the Middle East is equipped with nuclear weapons, and the stakes go up exponentially.

The official proposals are plastered all over the various websites in question, have been addressed in the UN, and multiple other venues. I believe you have seen essential parts, as you have reproduced them here.

You insist that Palestinians are aggressors, for the crime of trying to hold on to their own country. Millions would disagree with you, as the recent vote on the status of Palestine in the UN gives one small example. Further, you base much of your claims on assigning personal characteristics to ethnic/national/racial groupings, which flies in the face of basic sociological and psychological knowledge today.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Millions would disagree with you, as the recent vote on the status of Palestine in the UN gives one small example.

That's the point. A majority vote of UN nations is not a judgment of morality, it is simply an act of dominance by a majority.

The "Palestinians" are not a minority group being victimized by a more powerful majority. Rather, as has always been the case, the Jews are a minority in the world, fighting for their rights among a majority of nations who would just as soon see them disappear from the Earth.

That's the biggest lie of the "Palestinians." They are not a discreet minority fighting for their own country. They are simply an arbitrarily designated group of Arabs who have created the fiction of a nationality to accomplish the dual purpose of establishing yet another Arab state at the expense of the Jewish State.

 

[MJB12741]

Are you not even aware that it is Hamas who is the duly elected government of the majority of the Palestinian people themselves? So tell us how the Palestinians want peace with Israel.

"IN ALL this bickering, one basic fact is ignored.

It’s that elephant again.

"The elephant in the room, whose existence Netanyahu denies and which Kerry is trying to ignore.

The occupation.

"The assumption is generally made that the negotiations are between equals. In cartoons, Netanyahu and Abbas appear to be of equal size. The American picture of two reasonable people talking it out between themselves presupposes two more or less equal partners.

"But this whole picture is basically false. The proposed 'negotiations' are between an almighty occupying power and an almost totally powerless occupied people. Between the wolf and the lamb.

"(it’s the old Israeli joke again: Can you keep a wolf and a lamb together? Of course you can, if you put in a new lamb every day.)"

Kerry and Chutzpah » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

What you fail to accept is that the "occupation" that the Arabs want to end is the existence of ANY Jewish State. That's what they teach their kids, and preach in speeches giveb in Arabic.

You're right about chutzpah, though. For the Arabs to think they can "negotiate" Israel out of existence is the epitome of chutzpah.

I've noticed that some Israel supporters here will simply shift focus, or deny if possible, when inconvenient facts surface. The current policy of the PA, and supporting Arab states, is peace- not the destruction Israel. In fact, far from it. The plan awards Israel almost 80% of Palestine, and offers a normalization of relations.

Israel rejects this, and one can only conclude it is because its current position of strength urges it not to accept any sort of change.

 

[MJB12741]

How does ANYONE or ANY NATION make peace with a people who prefer death over life?

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

How does ANYONE or ANY NATION make peace with a people who prefer death over life?

The nations who prefer death over life do not even want peace. They glory in bloodshed so anyone who thinks Israel should consider Hamas and the Palestinian Authority true peace partners are fooling themselves. At least Hamas are not afraid to voice their opinions. The PA are the sly ones in apparently 'wanting' peace but having another agenda entirely.

 

[toastman]

Auteur, et al,

What is your point?

You haven't seen any demonstrated action? A peace proposal that has world backing, a generous one in that it conceeds considerable issues to Israel's favour, that allows for the retention of territories taken by force (illegal under international law) by Israel, the choice for Israel to limit or deny the return of refugees to the country (providing they are compensated), and your not satisfied?

(COMMENT)

• Where have you seen an official proposal by the Palestinians to Israel?
• What are the point of contention?
• Where is the Hamas Charter in this? Have they rescinded it?

There will always be a few radicals firing missiles and planting bombs until some sort of resolution is on track here, that's going to be hard to stop under present circumstances. But using that as an excuse to deny peace is a cop out. If you want to talk about words and deads, mention the ongoing settler encroachment and expropriation going on in the west bank. That's hardly a demonstration of sincerity about peace, is it?

(COMMENT)

I've never denied that Palestinian did not have grievances. But that doesn't mean that I approve of the insurgency effort.

I've always said the neither side has clean hands. But I understand how, after 65 years of continuous insurgent efforts, three wars, major terrorist campaigns, and the propaganda bombardment, that the Palestinians should not expect a soft hand. There is a past history of behavior. And the aggressor has to demonstrate the change. And the aggressor is not the Israelis.

Most Respectfully,
R

My point is that the PA, the Arab League, and indeed the consensus of world opinion (outside of the usual suspects) is that a reasonable peace plan is on the table. Far from being the reprehensible war mongers you describe, the above have come out with a reasonable, indeed generous, offer of peace, which has been rejected by Israel. It is likely the best deal they are going to get, and should accept it, before everybody and his dog in the Middle East is equipped with nuclear weapons, and the stakes go up exponentially.

The official proposals are plastered all over the various websites in question, have been addressed in the UN, and multiple other venues. I believe you have seen essential parts, as you have reproduced them here.

You insist that Palestinians are aggressors, for the crime of trying to hold on to their own country. Millions would disagree with you, as the recent vote on the status of Palestine in the UN gives one small example. Further, you base much of your claims on assigning personal characteristics to ethnic/national/racial groupings, which flies in the face of basic sociological and psychological knowledge today.

Reasonable for whom ?

 

[HistoryBefore67]

There is no plan on the table, reasonable or otherwise. There can't be until there is a government that can speak for the "Palestinian" people. The PA does not qualify as long as Hamas rules Gaza.

 

[Kondor3]

How does ANYONE or ANY NATION make peace with a people who prefer death over life?

In the interests of accuracy, IMHO, Palestinians are not a People who prefer death over life, but they ARE a pseudo-People, living in a pseudo-Country, whose religious dogma make it ridiculously easy for its political leadership to brainwash and manipulate its Sheeple, which, in turn, seems to produce more than its fair share of Death Lovers. I'm sure there are tons of sane Palestinians who want nothing more than long, happy lives, on their terms, as masters of all of the now-vanished Old Palestine, but that dream evaporated long ago, and those most bitter about that are the easiest to recruit as new Death Eaters by their political masters.

Collectively, so-called Palestine is certainly on some kind of Death Trip, which probably explains, in part, why both their Muslim neighbors and the rest of the world oftentimes find them repugnant, and want as little to do with them as may be practicable.

 

[RoccoR]

Auteur, et al,

I'll try and answer.

My point is that the PA, the Arab League, and indeed the consensus of world opinion (outside of the usual suspects) is that a reasonable peace plan is on the table. Far from being the reprehensible war mongers you describe, the above have come out with a reasonable, indeed generous, offer of peace, which has been rejected by Israel. It is likely the best deal they are going to get, and should accept it, before everybody and his dog in the Middle East is equipped with nuclear weapons, and the stakes go up exponentially.

(COMMENT)

I see no directly authored, peace proposal by the Palestinian Authority/State of Palestine.

While there are several independently developed and/or suggested Peace Plan Proposals, there is nothing on the table from the Palestinians at this time (that I can find). And there have been no real gestures of peace from the Palestinians that I can find.

SECSTATE John Kerry is attempting to re-open negotiations between the heads of state, but even that has turned out to be a chore.

The official proposals are plastered all over the various websites in question, have been addressed in the UN, and multiple other venues. I believe you have seen essential parts, as you have reproduced them here.

(COMMENT)

I have seen specific proposals. But there is nothing on the table that both sides have agreed to in reality. Having said that,

And as I have talked the last few days intensively with leaders in Jordan, in the West Bank, in Palestine, as well as in Israel with Prime Minister Netanyahu and President Abbas particularly, I’ve really been impressed with their serious commitment to this task. They have spent hours working through language, working through ideas, and the effort that they and their teams have put into this convinces me of their interest in being successful.

SOURCE: U.S. Secretary of State Kerry says real progress made toward starting final status negotiations - U.S. State Dept. press release//Non-UN document (30 June 2013)

You insist that Palestinians are aggressors, for the crime of trying to hold on to their own country.

(COMMENT)

In my view, the Palestinians are not trying to "hold on to their own country;" because no one is trying to take it (I'm not sure anyone wants it). The Palestinians are in an "Occupation" status, for security quarantine purposes and rear area protection.

Having said that, I believe there is a prima facie case against the Israelis relative to apparent violations of:

(viii) The transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory;

SOURCE: Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court

But THEN!, the HoAP must also keep in mind that they can't throw rocks in a glass house. The need for occupation did not just materialize. There was a history, a secession of events that provoked the construction of the wall and to tighten "occupation" controls.

• Recalling the duty of States to refrain in their international relations from military, political, economic or any other form of coercion aimed against the political independence or territorial integrity of any State,

• Reiterating its strong condemnation of terrorism in all its forms and manifestations, committed by whomever, wherever and for whatever purposes, as it constitutes one of the most serious threats to international peace and security,

• Affirming that in areas such as conflict prevention, negotiation, mediation, conciliation, judicial settlement, rule of law, peacekeeping and peace building , in order to contribute to the successful prevention and peaceful resolution of prolonged unresolved conflicts.

That the Palestinian has a known record and established past history of criminal and terrorist behaviors that have not met with these qualities and standards. That it is an undisputed fact that over the last 65 years, the Hostile Arab/Palestinian (HoAP) has not refrained from organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities. Whether we talk about the plight of bomb maker Sami Issawi, or the Olympic Team Terrorist attack in Munich, the hijacking of the MS Achille Lauro, the taking of numerous airliners, tossing bodies on the tarmac and throwing crippled people overboard, or any number of suicide bombing in the past. There is an established history of criminal behaviors. While today, the HoAP is trying to establish itself as a victim, one must also be conscious of the true nature and barbarity of the persona. Yes, there are some signs that the HoAP may be in the stage of rehabilitation, we must be cautiously aware that the domesticated terrorist is still a terrorist (a tiger never really loses it stripes); and could fall off the wagon at any time.

Millions would disagree with you, as the recent vote on the status of Palestine in the UN gives one small example. Further, you base much of your claims on assigning personal characteristics to ethnic/national/racial groupings, which flies in the face of basic sociological and psychological knowledge today.

(COMMENT)

I really don't assign or profile anything based on "personal characteristics to ethnic/national/racial groupings." It is the past history of criminal behaviors that warrant attention and countermeasures in the potential of criminal recidivism. I seldom rely on the plastic sciences for either prosecutorial purposes, or as an indicator of reintegration into the general community of nations on a productive level. HoAP (as well as others I could name) have a markedly distorted sense of the potential consequences of their actions. This discussion, if nothing else, demonstrates that on a dramatic level. Whether the HoAP tries to pin the blame of the current political distress on the US and Israelis, or whether the plight of their children are somehow the responsibility of someone other than their parents, the dynamic range of their victim persona is quite remarkable.

No, I don't use "personal characteristics to ethnic/national/racial groupings" as a crutch or shorthand to evaluate to individual, the group, or the culture. I use empirical evidence based on a past pattern of behaviors.

Most Respectfully,
R