War on Christmas

[YWN666]

YWN, I'm well aware of what the stated points of people are that have an issue with the words Merry Christmas being displayed in public places as well as what the implications of the words have to some. My point is very simple, in this case this holiday is a Chistian Holiday that is celebrated the world over and has been clebrated in this nation since it's inception. If the word's are so distastful to those that do not like them simply find a location that does not display them.

It appears that you don't understand the points being made. Again, it is NOT about christmas being considered distasteful. We had been discussing the idea of retail stores using various greetings for their customers and now you're mixing in the idea of religious displays on government property. They are 2 different issues. Also, I will point out that there are other religions that celebrate holidays in December.

I have heard all the arguments over this seperation of Church and State issue whatever you want to bring up over it, however I hardly see where the words Merry Christmas on display or any of the other issues associated with this come even close to the Govt. mandating a state sponsored religion as defined by this.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Take it up with the Supreme Court. They have interpreted the Constitution many times over to prohibit government fom endorsing religion.

In fact by limiting or prohibiting the displays of Merry Christmas one can argue that states and locations are not paying much attention to the constitution. The bottom line here is this, if those words which are meant actually to convey a peaceful and well meaning greeting to others is so offensive to some then I submit that they do have options and one of them is not to pay attention to them.

Nonsense. Religion does not belong in government and the Constitution demands that limitation. If they prohibited you from celebrating christmas in your own home or in your church or even on a public street, you might have a point but that is just not happening. Since citizens of many different religions (and no religion, too) make up this country, I don't see it as unfair at all to prevent one religion from having the upper hand at the expense of others.

 

[YWN666]

Fact of the matter Againsheila, most people are ingnorant of the love of Christ and what he stands for in a true Christians life. Jesus the Christ came to abolish the bondage chains of religious dogma. Jesus the Christ is a way of life a personal relationship of HIS love and a standard of accountibility. Always remember Againsheila if there's nothing to your relationship with Jesus the Christ then why are they trying to dismantle and debunk it in every facet of American life, you know why?, because the required standard accountibility sears their rotten conscious, plain and simple "out of sight out of mind" hands down... The countless removels of 100 and 150 year old established Ten Commandments displays in public court houses all over the USA, not to mention uprooted Christian Crosses, Nativity scenes and Christmas trees... Never ever saleout,,, to give up what you believe is to saleout your soul, the best BIBLE, Christian example or idea of Christianity the world will ever see is the one they see in your life style.......

Oh, brother @@ You want us to feel sorry for you because you don't want to follow the rules everyone else has to follow? No sympathy here. No one is trying to dismantle christianity - that is a ridiculous comment to make. If the courthouses that are used by you and other American citizens had displays of other non-christian religious holidays and prohibited christians displays, you'd be screaming bloody murder. That is not happening but when the shoe is on the other foot and only christian displays are allowed, then that is OK with you?

 

[Sidestreamer]

Youse guys are very verbose over a non issue! are you not?



Merry Merrry Christmas everyone!!

Nah, we're just shocked at how much ado you can make over nothing, that's all.

 

[WillowTree]

poor little whiney assed excluded's oh boo focking hoo's focking who?






Merrry Merrrry Christmas!

 

[Shogun]

poor little whiney assed excluded's oh boo focking hoo's focking who?

Merrry Merrrry Christmas!

gosh, thats not at all ironic considering who predictably cries like chicken little at every winter solstice..

 

[WillowTree]

Nah, we're just shocked at how much ado you can make over nothing, that's all.

on post # 343,, and yer still whining about Christmas!! jeez.

 

[YWN666]

The links below speak volumes for themselves in the war on the removal of the Ten Commandments, Christams Trees, Nativity scenes and just about every other Christian symbol thunkable???
Vandalism of Nativity Scene a disappointment
Posting the Ten Commandments in schools, etc: Year 2002
CNN.com - Ten Commandments monument moved - Nov. 14, 2003
Activist: 'Immediately remove' City Hall nativity scene | greenbaypressgazette.com | Green Bay Press-Gazette
Green Bay Councilman Asks Mayor to Remove Nativity Scene
Family ordered to remove nativity scene from yard
firstamendmentcenter.org: news
Extremist demands for removal of cross and demolition of Christian statutes in mission schools
ATHEISTS WIN SMALL VICTORY IN FIGHT TO REMOVE MT. DAVIDSON CHRISTIAN CROSS
Christmas Tree Removal Sparks Controversy At Law School - Indiana News Story - WRTV Indianapolis

If this dont do it for ya, you may need to see professional help with a CAT scan

I followed quite a few of the links you posted and most of them are just complaints about the prohibition of government endorsed religion. Get used to it unless you want to tear up the Constitution.

One of the others about a families nativity scene on their lawn sounds out of line from the headline but when you read the facts of the case, it is not out of line.
This line says it all:
"Michigan courts have said homeowners who join neighborhood or condominium associations must follow the rules set by the group."

The family put up their display without permission of the neighborhood association, a rule that everyone has to follow. Now they're whining that they have to follow the rules.

 

[WillowTree]

[YOUTUBE]CUKk-atKy_I[/YOUTUBE]

 

[editec]

In our state capital, we now have a "holiday" tree, a nativity and a sign that says "Religion is but a myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

Is it on STATE property?

If not, so what?

Me, I'd rather do without Christmas at all than to have someone post a sign saying that I'm hard hearted and stupid for believing in God.

Why do you care what idiots like that think?

Not only is there a war on Christmas, there is a war on Christians.

Really? I'm a Christian, and yet I haven't seen any action. Wonder why?

Last year, for the first time ever, I sent out Christmas cards with a religious message in them. I was so angry at those who are against our FEDERAL holiday. This year I was going to go with a more secular card, but now, after this sign posted in our state capital, which, as far as I'm concerned is a hate crime, I'm going to put religious messages on this years Christmas cards too.

Okay. That's keepin it real. Go for it.

I could handle as sign that says "There is no God", but to insult everyone of us who have a religion, that's hate, right there.

Yes, I agree. It is boneheaded stupid and pointlessly rude sign. Is it on public property? If so, then by all means have it removed. I would if such a thing happened in my town.

When someone pushes me, I tend to push back. I know it's not very Christian of me, but if I don't push back, pretty soon I won't be able to express my belief at all.

Oh I don't blame you one bit. I don't think I've ever turned the other cheek in my life. I am not a good Christian.

I know it's not very Christian of me, but if I don't push back, pretty soon I won't be able to express my belief at all.

You think? How is anyone going to stop you from expressing your beliefs, exactly, Again?

Can you give me an example of what you fear will happen if you don't push back?

And push back against WHAT exactly?

See? This is why I am dubious that there is a war on Christmas.

Where is this war?

 

[Steerpike]

Yes, I agree. It is boneheaded stupid and pointlessly rude sign. Is it on public property? If so, then by all means have it removed. I would if such a thing happened in my town.

Actually...if it is on public property that is open for putting religious, political, or other messages, then you shouldn't be able to take it down. The State can't regulate such messages based solely on their content (with certain exceptions like obscenity) and shouldn't be able to regulate even as much as they do.

 

[YWN666]

Quote:
I know it's not very Christian of me, but if I don't push back, pretty soon I won't be able to express my belief at all.

You think? How is anyone going to stop you from expressing your beliefs, exactly, Again?

Can you give me an example of what you fear will happen if you don't push back?

And push back against WHAT exactly?

See? This is why I am dubious that there is a war on Christmas.

Where is this war?

Sheila is again using the slippery slope argument. It's all nonsense. NO ONE is attempting to make her stop practicing her religion. In fact many groups like the ACLU and PFAW are fighting the rights of everyone, including christians, to practice their religion.

I often see that kind of argument in response to an action where religion in government is prohibited. It is apples and oranges and they know it.

What is ridiculous about their argument is that we have a religion that is the majority religion in the US (many of them falsely claiming that the majority should dictate constitutional rights) and yet they are trying to portray themselves as the poor persecuted victims whose rights are being violated. The majority being persecuted? Does that make any sense?

 

[YWN666]

Actually...if it is on public property that is open for putting religious, political, or other messages, then you shouldn't be able to take it down. The State can't regulate such messages based solely on their content (with certain exceptions like obscenity) and shouldn't be able to regulate even as much as they do.

You make a good point. If the government does allow all religions to put up their displays on government property (the only exception to allowing such displays on government property) then they have no say in the content. That is one of the dangers of allowing them all. I think there's be more than a few complaints if the Ayatollah Whatever put up a religious display that said "death to infidels".

 

[Steerpike]

You make a good point. If the government does allow all religions to put up their displays on government property (the only exception to allowing such displays on government property) then they have no say in the content. That is one of the dangers of allowing them all. I think there's be more than a few complaints if the Ayatollah Whatever put up a religious display that said "death to infidels".

The question is: if the allow one can they Constitutionally not allow them all without discriminating based on content?

 

[Shogun]

I guess we'll find out when christians start crying about crescent moons and stars sharing as much space on the courthouse lawn as the nativity set.

 

[Navy1960]

It appears that you don't understand the points being made. Again, it is NOT about christmas being considered distasteful. We had been discussing the idea of retail stores using various greetings for their customers and now you're mixing in the idea of religious displays on government property. They are 2 different issues. Also, I will point out that there are other religions that celebrate holidays in December.



Take it up with the Supreme Court. They have interpreted the Constitution many times over to prohibit government fom endorsing religion.




Nonsense. Religion does not belong in government and the Constitution demands that limitation. If they prohibited you from celebrating christmas in your own home or in your church or even on a public street, you might have a point but that is just not happening. Since citizens of many different religions (and no religion, too) make up this country, I don't see it as unfair at all to prevent one religion from having the upper hand at the expense of others.

Ywn because I choose to make a point as to the merits of the usage of the words Merry Christmas, does not mean I do not understand what YOU and others happen to be discussing. As a matter of fact my original post did not directly address anyone and was expressing an opinion much as yours does with the your interpretation of my opinion on the constitutional merits of the holiday. I suggest that if the holiday bothers you so much then petition your Gov. office to have it removed on the grounds that it celebrates a religion on who's principles this nation was founded upon. I've always found it interesting that people who demand Freedoms louder than others are very willing to deny them quickly if it does not fit in the molds they happen to believe in. As for your Supreme Court cases on Church and State , your correct there are many examples of them, however as my earlier post indicated simply posting a Merry Christmas sign can be seen as prohibiting the free exercise thereof. If someone believes that by posting a Merry Christmas sign that the local Govt. is somehow passing a state sponsored religion then they must also believe that when a Govt. puts a coke machine in the lobby of the local city hall they are somehow forcing citizens to drink coke. Both are equally as crazy and all it takes is an individual to make the choice. So while I appreciate your opinion, they are your opinions and like mine while different it has nothing at all to do with my not understanding your previous conversation.

 

[WhiteLion]

I followed quite a few of the links you posted and most of them are just complaints about the prohibition of government endorsed religion. Get used to it unless you want to tear up the Constitution.

One of the others about a families nativity scene on their lawn sounds out of line from the headline but when you read the facts of the case, it is not out of line.
This line says it all:
"Michigan courts have said homeowners who join neighborhood or condominium associations must follow the rules set by the group."

The family put up their display without permission of the neighborhood association, a rule that everyone has to follow. Now they're whining that they have to follow the rules.

Typical self interpretation, of selective links, comon do better than that

 

[WhiteLion]

Oh, brother @@ You want us to feel sorry for you because you don't want to follow the rules everyone else has to follow? No sympathy here. No one is trying to dismantle christianity - that is a ridiculous comment to make. If the courthouses that are used by you and other American citizens had displays of other non-christian religious holidays and prohibited christians displays, you'd be screaming bloody murder. That is not happening but when the shoe is on the other foot and only christian displays are allowed, then that is OK with you?

Your a bonafide idiot as i expected and you think i seek your pitty lmao boy your barking up the wrong tree

 

[WhiteLion]

Ywn because I choose to make a point as to the merits of the usage of the words Merry Christmas, does not mean I do not understand what YOU and others happen to be discussing. As a matter of fact my original post did not directly address anyone and was expressing an opinion much as yours does with the your interpretation of my opinion on the constitutional merits of the holiday. I suggest that if the holiday bothers you so much then petition your Gov. office to have it removed on the grounds that it celebrates a religion on who's principles this nation was founded upon. I've always found it interesting that people who demand Freedoms louder than others are very willing to deny them quickly if it does not fit in the molds they happen to believe in. As for your Supreme Court cases on Church and State , your correct there are many examples of them, however as my earlier post indicated simply posting a Merry Christmas sign can be seen as prohibiting the free exercise thereof. If someone believes that by posting a Merry Christmas sign that the local Govt. is somehow passing a state sponsored religion then they must also believe that when a Govt. puts a coke machine in the lobby of the local city hall they are somehow forcing citizens to drink coke. Both are equally as crazy and all it takes is an individual to make the choice. So while I appreciate your opinion, they are your opinions and like mine while different it has nothing at all to do with my not understanding your previous conversation.

EXCELLENT

 

[Zoom-boing]

Bullshit. That is NOT my position and never has been.
I repeatedly said that greeters in stores were given the discretion to decide which greeting to use if they knew that a specific customer celebrated a certain holiday. That's why I told someone here to announce that they celebrated christmas when they walked in the store so the greeter could avoid his temper tantrum by wishing him a Happy Holiday.
The Happy Holiday greeting was to be used only if the greeter did not know anything about the customer. I NEVER said that Merry Christmas should not be allowed. I said it shouldn't be the only greeting used just to satisfy a few selfish christians.

By George I think she's got it . . . .

Not just Merry Christmas, not just Happy Holidays -- use 'em both. (pssst, you wanna throw in a Nativity display at Wal-mart while you're at it? )

 

[Zoom-boing]

That is not even the point.

Yawn, the more you post the less of a point you make. zzzzzzzzzzz