War With Syria: Yea Or Nay?

[AceRothstein]

Fixed:

Yeah, if a Republican adminstration were in the White House, the progressives would be hysterically eager to protest a war on Syria and anyone that supports it--- it would be our DUTY to protest, lots of screeds about how awful war is, many cut-and-pastes of the of the phoney Iraq WMD claims.

But since a Dem is in the White House, suddenly we are all warhawks. Sheeeeeeeeeesh.

Progressives speak with forked tongue

Progressive support for attacking Syria isn't all that high.

So where are all the protests, like this one?

There are a few differences.

1. The administration has been seriously talking about bombing Syria for just a few days. The march to war with Iraq was over a multi-month period in which the protests grew.
2. The administration is not talking about a full on invasion and occupation in Syria. Big difference.

That being said, I think we need need to stay the fuck out of this.

 

[Circe]

Progressive support for attacking Syria isn't all that high.

So where are all the protests, like this one?

There are a few differences.

1. The administration has been seriously talking about bombing Syria for just a few days. The march to war with Iraq was over a multi-month period in which the protests grew.
2. The administration is not talking about a full on invasion and occupation in Syria. Big difference.

That being said, I think we need need to stay the fuck out of this.

All the same, Obama better get on with it, because you are right that it IS delays that allow this sort of protest to get organized. And Russia has started delaying tactics in the UN, saying we need to get the inspectors report presented first about whether there was gas, who dunnit, etc. -- that ought to be good for a two-month delay. And the UN hierarchy like the Secretary-General is already making noises about how the U.S. has to get UN permission.

Because if the U.S. keeps not bothering with UN permission, that's exactly like poison gas use: if people keep doing it, it gets normalized and the international conventions against it don't carry any weight. If everyone disregards the UN, it no longer has any importance.


Which is WAY fine with me. I think that ship has sailed, anyway.

Britain put this action in for a vote just now and everyone knows what will happen: Russia and probably China will vote against it, and it will happen anyway.

But I agree: he'd better do it fast, because this country is OVERWHELMINGLY against getting involved with Syria and big protests could start if there is a delay. I bet Washington knows that, good catch, Ace and Rabbi.

 

[Circe]

So to work the American character, what they need to do is strike Syria tomorrow, fast, before the war-weariness of America can be expressed in protests.

Then they need to hope for or provoke an Iranian attack on our forces, preferably, or at least on Israel. Remember the Maine! Attack in Tonkin Gulf! WMD in Iraq!! All faked to get a war going, it works.

Then if there is any attack of any sort by Iran, they can count on the gravely disunited America turning as one on Iran with a snarl. We seriously, no fooling, don't like attacks on us and will always fight that.

That worked to get us into WWI: The German foreign minister had incautiously written a coded telegram to Mexico offering to support them with weapons and anything in a war against us to distract us from the European war, and they'd help them get back the entire Southwest --- three American states. The Zimmerman Telegram was captured by the British and decoded (the man who found it leaned back in his chair, he said, knowing he had just won the war for Britain) and sent to Woodrow Wilson, presumably with a very polite message that either he could release it to the papers, or they would.

Wilson did release it to the papers, as soon as he was sworn in for a second term -- he had run on the slogan "He Kept Us Out Of War," so it would have been embarrassing to release the telegram before the swearing-in.

It was like 9/11. Fury swept the country instantly. Congress declared war on Germany inside a week.

If Iran attacks our forces, that will happen to Iran, be sure.

 

[The Rabbi]

Progressive support for attacking Syria isn't all that high.

So where are all the protests, like this one?

There are a few differences.

1. The administration has been seriously talking about bombing Syria for just a few days. The march to war with Iraq was over a multi-month period in which the protests grew.
2. The administration is not talking about a full on invasion and occupation in Syria. Big difference.

That being said, I think we need need to stay the fuck out of this.

Protests can be organized in just a few days. Where is the march on washington by liberals to protest this?
Bush didnt do anything on Darfur and the left protested that.

 

[Circe]

Protests can be organized in just a few days. Where is the march on washington by liberals to protest this?
Bush didnt do anything on Darfur and the left protested that.

You know the answer to that. People are on the side of their partisan in the White House, that's all. If their guy is in the White House, they want whatever he wants. What, are you expecting people to be morally consistent and non-partisan??

Dream on.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Because if the U.S. keeps not bothering with UN permission, that's exactly like poison gas use: if people keep doing it, it gets normalized and the international conventions against it don't carry any weight. If everyone disregards the UN, it no longer has any importance..."

The US never HAS 'obeyed' the UN.

In truth, with respect to so many things, the UN is the bitch of the US.

And, when it doesn't give the US what it wants, the US ignores the UN and proceeds, anyway.

The UN always has been an Old Ladies Debating Society and Neutral Talking Ground, without any real teeth.

That has a lot to do with the way the body is structured and the primacy of the Security Council and the Single Veto-Vote Power and the inevitable factions that crystallized within it.

It's greatest value (and that's marginal, but better than nothing) is that it serves as a place for everyone to safely come together to talk things out, before they decide to fight.

Sometimes, a brawl can be avoided, although that always has been a rare outcome.

And, of course, various subordinate agencies do a great deal of good, fueled and funded by the world collective, with respect to hunger and health and other peaceful concerns.

But, as a reliable mechanism for stopping wars, or reining-in Superpower A or B, it's always been more joke than reality, and the same holds true today.

IMHO...

 

[Camp]

Pretty funny that so few people understand what is going on and don't realize the two biggest terrorist organizations that threaten the USA (al Qaeda) and it's interest (Hezbolla vs. Israel) have been manipulated into a war with each other, with Iran on the side of Hezbolla and the Sunni Arab states on the side of al Qaeda because they are Sunni. Assad is now dependent on Iran and Hezbolla for support. The rebels are made up of lots of different groups and al Qaeda is just one faction. So, the enemys of the USA and Israel are locked in battle, Shite vs. Sunni, muslim vs. muslim. Each in it's own Holy War against the other. Assad, with the use of internationaly forbidden chemical weapons could end the war or at least neutralize it. That would mean victory for Syria and Iran and defeat for al Qaeda on the SYRIAN BATTTLEFIELD. But they would just pop up somewhere else. The really bad danger with the gas attacks is that it can neutralize or defeat the moderate Sunni forces that are willing to work with the west in the total defeat of al Qaeda when the dust settles on the Syrian battlefield. So, the gas attacks can be a game changer and that is why they need to be stopped. The longer the battles between the terrorist groups go on, the better. They are draining resources and sending their best fighters to die in Syria. The moderate forces are holding back and watching, waiting and preparing. A few cruise missiles may be all that is needed to bring the war back into a nice slow war of attrition between our enemies. And it wouldn't hurt to to neuter the Russians too.

Russian are being neutered at this moment. Navy is pulling out and port being closed. All Russians leaving Syria. Two jet loads already left. Two supply ships turned around and returning home. Russians have informed Syria that all contracts and agreements for re-supply and further weapons and munition deliverys are null and void. USA forces Russia to back down and vacate the area. The black guy in the White House don't bluff and he don't get bluffed. Russia neutered.

 

[Trajan]

Tensions rising
Obabble monitoring
Russia warning
China objecting
Iran threatening
Arab world divided
Us military ready to go.


The world under Obabble...not a satisfactory situation.

The result of Obama's naive "outreach to the Muslim world" and "reset with Russia".

Oh really now.

I guess this has nothing to do with Bush breaking international treaties concerning anti ballistic missiles and unilaterally invading 2 middle eastern countries..right?

Add in downing a couple of Chinese fighter jets in the spy plane incident.

up your meds yo, open that drip as wide as it'll go...wtf does that gobbledygook mean or have to do with Obama having no FP to start with and blowing up what little he tried to cobble together?

 

[The Rabbi]

The result of Obama's naive "outreach to the Muslim world" and "reset with Russia".

Oh really now.

I guess this has nothing to do with Bush breaking international treaties concerning anti ballistic missiles and unilaterally invading 2 middle eastern countries..right?

Add in downing a couple of Chinese fighter jets in the spy plane incident.

up your meds yo, open that dripm as wdie as it'll go...wtf does that gobbledygook mean or have to do with Obama having no FP to start with and blowing up what little he tried to cobble together?

It has to be Bush's fault. Heck if Bush hadn't invaded Iraq then Syria would never have gotten their WMD to use on their own people.
See, it is all Bush's fault!

 

[RandallFlagg]

Oh really now.

I guess this has nothing to do with Bush breaking international treaties concerning anti ballistic missiles and unilaterally invading 2 middle eastern countries..right?

Add in downing a couple of Chinese fighter jets in the spy plane incident.

up your meds yo, open that dripm as wdie as it'll go...wtf does that gobbledygook mean or have to do with Obama having no FP to start with and blowing up what little he tried to cobble together?

It has to be Bush's fault. Heck if Bush hadn't invaded Iraq then Syria would never have gotten their WMD to use on their own people.
See, it is all Bush's fault!

Interesting. Let's explore that for a second. Bush went to Iraq because they had stockpiles of chemical weapons - but they didn't (you and I know that Hussein merely shipped them out to Syria for "safekeeping") according to the left, so Bush lied. Now, Syria is using Iraq's chemical weapons and it's STILL Bush's fault.

So, basically, the left is saying that it's STILL Bush's fault because Iraq DIDN'T have CBR capabilities (which made Bush a liar and a war monger) and It's Bush's fault NOW because Syria has the weapons that USED to be in Iraq that were lied about by Bush so, in reality, because Bush lied, it was Bush's fault then and because the weapons were moved to Syria so it's Bush's fault because there actually WERE WMDs but no there weren't because Bush lied.......


Get it!?!

 

[NLT]

Let them kill each other...let Allah sort them out.

 

[antiquity]

Progressive support for attacking Syria isn't all that high.

According to the OP poll conservative support for attacking Syria isn't either. But when did Obama ever care about public support of his policies.

 

[B. Kidd]

Russian are being neutered at this moment. Navy is pulling out and port being closed. All Russians leaving Syria. Two jet loads already left. Two supply ships turned around and returning home. Russians have informed Syria that all contracts and agreements for re-supply and further weapons and munition deliverys are null and void. USA forces Russia to back down and vacate the area. The black guy in the White House don't bluff and he don't get bluffed. Russia neutered.

Are you talking about the neutered Russia that has at least three new Borei class nuclear submarines operational; possessing a next-gen nuclear reactor that is almost noiseless, can navigate autonomously for three months, carries up to 20 solid fuel ICBMs' able to overcome any prospective missle defense system?

 

[RandallFlagg]

Progressive support for attacking Syria isn't all that high.

According to the OP poll conservative support for attacking Syria isn't either. But when did Obama ever care about public support of his policies.

Look, this country simply can not afford another conflict. We have been involved in War for nearly 13 years. We have service members who have spent their ENTIRE careers shuttling between Iraq and Afghanistan. This country (and more importantly this MILITARY) is war weary. These kids are tired. I served one tour of duty in combat in Vietnam. ONE. I see more cases of PTSD than I EVER saw as a returning vet from SE Asia.

I was a HUGE fan of Ronald Reagan. He got the lion's share of the credit for bringing down the Soviet Union (and rightly so). However, it really wasn't Reagan that brought them to their knees - it was Afghanistan. It decimated that country. They were never able to recover from that fiasco just like we are not recovering from Iraq and Afghanistan.

It doesn't matter whether you're a conservative or a liberal at this point. Everyday Americans know that we simply can't be the cops of the damn world any longer. WE deserve the right to rest. WE deserve the right to recover. WE deserve the right to have our children home. WE deserve the right for our Grandchildren to have Mom or Dad home - not screaming in the middle of the night - reliving firefights.

I think WE have earned the right to let someone else be the "policemen of the world" for a bit.

 

[conspiracy]

meh.... i have no problem with them killing each other off. Less of them to hate us.

Didn't put much thought into this, huh?

 

[conspiracy]

I think it's an honest question.

Why do they want to kill Assad so badly?

US wants a puppet like Karzi to pay off and do what they want. this is about multinational corporations and the american government who kills and blasts the leader and people away for special interest. the american government don't give a dam about the people, they want control, US is known for the policing of the world. they want nations to act right so that the rich heavy weights can come in and oppress and make more money off of their natural resources. then also you have israel who wants to start some shit anyways, what better way to do it.

 

[Kondor3]

meh.... i have no problem with them killing each other off. Less of them to hate us.

Didn't put much thought into this, huh?

Or, alternatively, "Less is More"...

Sometimes, there is a certain eloquence in simplicity...

This may very well prove to be one of those times...

 

[Camp]

Russian are being neutered at this moment. Navy is pulling out and port being closed. All Russians leaving Syria. Two jet loads already left. Two supply ships turned around and returning home. Russians have informed Syria that all contracts and agreements for re-supply and further weapons and munition deliverys are null and void. USA forces Russia to back down and vacate the area. The black guy in the White House don't bluff and he don't get bluffed. Russia neutered.

Are you talking about the neutered Russia that has at least three new Borei class nuclear submarines operational; possessing a next-gen nuclear reactor that is almost noiseless, can navigate autonomously for three months, carries up to 20 solid fuel ICBMs' able to overcome any prospective missle defense system?

Yes, same Russia, with whistles and bells. Never been a question of Russia's ability to lob nukes at us. It's called mutual destuction and it was what the cold war was all about. Yesterday these threads were full of warnings about Russia and the start of WWIII. Lots about the incompetent President and the red line. Well, Russia is no longer a threat in reqards to Syria. They quit and are fleeing the area. They are not ready to face the USA. They want nothing to do with a red line. Some people here are just so obsessed with hate that they can not bring themselves to celebrate an American victory. They refuse to recognize a game changing event because of their obsession.

 

[Kondor3]

I think it's an honest question.

Why do they want to kill Assad so badly?

US wants a puppet like Karzi to pay off and do what they want. this is about multinational corporations and the american government who kills and blasts the leader and people away for special interest. the american government don't give a dam about the people, they want control, US is known for the policing of the world. they want nations to act right so that the rich heavy weights can come in and oppress and make more money off of their natural resources. then also you have israel who wants to start some shit anyways, what better way to do it.

Yeah...

Because we're taking sooooooooo much out of Afghanistan, aren't we?

Because we took soooooooooooo much out of Iraq, didn't we?

The only ones making money are the stockholders of the arms industry...

We aren't getting shit in return for knocking over any of these pissants...

But that's a great idea...

Let's knock over Saudi Arabia, and steal all their oil...

Not...

 

[Kondor3]

"...Look, this country simply can not afford another conflict..."

This was well said... I would have tossed some Rep at you for this one as well but I just sent some across recently and have to wait a bit... but consider the wish to be the act...